Skill at arms and practice amongst the Lords Paramount and sons

[Angel Eyes]

In the martial culture of Westeros, it appears to me that nobody practices skill at arms amongst the upper tier of Westeros nobility, with the exception of the Starks and the Tyrells. Joffrey and Tommen are the most glaring examples, but Renly, Sweetrobin, and Trystane also show no skill at arms. Is there any reason for this laziness?

[hodorisfaclessman]

Huh ? renly is upper tier 

Tommen is a kid but was sparring with bran 

Trystane in the books is just a kid but theres no evidence hes not getting trained 

[Ylath's Snout]

Sweetrobin just seems to physically unfit to train although that could be because Lysa hasn't allowed him to train or play.

I think there might be something similar going on with Cersei not wanting her sons to get harmed.

Trystane is a bit weird TBH. Maybe the gender roles in Dorne are so soft that him not training for war is considered fine. More so when he has Sands Snakes that are picking up the martial slack.

[Trigger Warning]

The master at arms for Tommen is a matter of contention between Cersei and Jaime and Tommen often wants to practice jousting, it's Cresei that's standing in his was similarly Robert Arryn is coddled by his mother but probably too weak anyway. Joffrey doesn't seem to be too concerned about sparring with Robb whereas Robb is flustered and agitated after their bout which would suggest Joffrey held held his own at the very least. There's nothing to suggest that Renly hasn't done his share of training, he even jousts in the Hand's Tourney and I don't think we really know much about Trystane do we? Training for martial skills is so common that I would think it would be something we should just assume happens off page unless it's specifically pointed out to not be happening. 

[Bernie Mac]

38 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

In the martial culture of Westeros, it appears to me that nobody practices skill at arms amongst the upper tier of Westeros nobility, with the exception of the Starks and the Tyrells. Joffrey and Tommen are the most glaring examples,

Not really, the 12 year old Joffrey is able to hold his own against the 15 year old Robb, quite clearly he has had training, most likely by the master of arms Aron Santagar and Sandor Clegane. 

Tommen is 7 at the start of the series and he too is seen sparring though any training he would have had would have been limited after the death of Aron during the middle of ACOK. His training was put on hold with no master of arms though we see him taking an interest with Loras. 

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but Renly,

Renly not only trained Loras but in terms of popularity and character seems to be the Brandon/Robert of his generation. This would not be the case if he was not skilled in fighting as this is a martial society and his peers and the smallfolk would not show him the same love without it. 

Obviously not top tier but good enough to perform well enough at tourneys and be respected. 

 

 

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Sweetrobin,

Obviously, but him being 6 and ill will be the cause of this, after his father had died his mother was never going to allow him to train.  His lack of training is one of the reasons the Lords Declarant want him out of Littlefinger's care

"In Runestone the boy will learn the arts of war from Strong Sam Stone. No man could hope for a finer master-at-arms. Septon Lucos will instruct him in matters of the spirit. At Runestone he will also find other boys his own age, more suitable companions than the old women and sellswords that presently surround him."

 

 

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and Trystane also show no skill at arms.

when will he have had the opportunity to show his skill? 

[Michael Stark thenewwolf]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

In the martial culture of Westeros, it appears to me that nobody practices skill at arms amongst the upper tier of Westeros nobility, with the exception of the Starks and the Tyrells. Joffrey and Tommen are the most glaring examples, but Renly, Sweetrobin, and Trystane also show no skill at arms. Is there any reason for this laziness?

Why don’t you think Renly has martial skills?  Did you not read the book?  He’s said to enjoy tournaments and hunting. He’s also supposed to look as King Robert did in his youth. About 6 1/2 feet tall and at least 230-250 pounds. I would just hazard a guess that you make you ideas about Renly from the show and not the book. 

[Charles Calthrop]

I guess I personally remember show Renley more strongly than book Renley.  Show Renley is a total wuss - hates hunting, scared of blood, etc., etc.  

That said, I do remember book Renley as repeatedly referred to as ‘good for nothing but dressing well’, more ‘interested in fashion and feasts than anything else’, and certainly don’t remember anything about him advancing in tournaments.  (It’s been a while, but I want to say my impression was he loved tournaments because of the spectacle and parties, not because he was a keen participant).

I don’t remember Joffrey beating Robb at all - from what I remember, Rod Cassel wouldn’t let them spar except with practice swords; Joff pulled the ‘huh, you’re children, I ONLY spar with sharp blades’... and so they never actually sparred. Bran and Tommen did ‘spar’ and from what I remember Tommen didn’t come out on top.  Joff’s Record /involvement in combat generally (Blackwater) doesn’t suggest anything of martial prowess - to the point where Tyrion and Cersei are pointing out how much he sucks as a 16 year old relative to Jaime at the same age.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Oberyn, Jaime, Victarrion, Brandon Stark, Garlan Tyrell, Robert Baratheon, Brynden Tully. 

It seems to me that martial skill is pretty much the norm among the Great Houses.

[FictionIsntReal]

Stannis says of Renly

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at tourneys he dons his splendid suit of armor and allows himself to be knocked off his horse by a better man.

So he participates in tourneys but doesn't seem especially competitive. But then, Robert was never much of a jouster either (he was well-suited for melees).

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Charles Calthrop said:

I guess I personally remember show Renley more strongly than book Renley.  Show Renley is a total wuss - hates hunting, scared of blood, etc., etc.  

And  show Stannis leads from the front, gives awesome speeches before the battle and is one of the first over the walls of Kings Landing, none of which happened in the books. The show took liberties with both brothers, though it seems odd that so many Stannis fans are convinced the writers favored Stannis over Renly. 

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That said, I do remember book Renley as repeatedly referred to as ‘good for nothing but dressing well’, more ‘interested in fashion and feasts than anything else’,

Well dressing well and performing in tourneys or even being a decent warrior are not mutually exclusive positions though I don't recall people claiming that fashion was his main interest. 

 

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and certainly don’t remember anything about him advancing in tournaments.

Historically that is how nobles found favor with the smallfolk, by performing well at tourneys. The tourney of the Hand had been going on for quite some rounds by the time we hear of Renly's match against the Hound, for example we know that Jory had won his first two matches and lost his third a few pages before we hear of Renly's exit to the Hound, most of the participants had exited before Renly had.

Sandor Clegane and his immense brother, Ser Gregor the Mountain, seemed unstoppable as well, riding down one foe after the next in ferocious style.

[three paragraphs later]

Ser Balon Swann also fell to Gregor, and Lord Renly to the Hound. Renly was unhorsed so violently that he seemed to fly backward off his charger, legs in the air. His head hit the ground with an audible crack that made the crowd gasp, but it was just the golden antler on his helm. One of the tines had snapped off beneath him. When Lord Renly climbed to his feet, the commons cheered wildly, for King Robert's handsome young brother was a great favorite

[ the next match we hear of the Hound was his semi final defeat of Jaime]

Given both how late in the chapter we hear his knockout and his status as a favorite with the smallfolk it seems he did not just get knocked out on his first attempt. 

And given that he has the backing and respect of many of the knights 'of summer' it would be, frankly odd, if he was not at the very least a competent tourney knight. His own squire Loras turned out great while it is difficult to think Brienne would respect, much less love,  a man in their society who was not a decent warrior. Even Randyll Tarly is a fan. 

 

 

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I don’t remember Joffrey beating Robb at all

no one claimed he did, but that the 12 year old was holding his own with older Robb. (there is about three years difference in their age)

"Prince Joffrey, Robb, will you go another round?"

Robb, already sweaty from a previous bout, moved forward eagerly. "Gladly."

Joffrey moved into the sunlight in response to Rodrik's summons. His hair shone like spun gold. He looked bored. "This is a game for children, Ser Rodrik."

Theon Greyjoy gave a sudden bark of laughter. "You are children," he said derisively.

"Robb may be a child," Joffrey said. "I am a prince. And I grow tired of swatting at Starks with a play sword."

"You got more swats than you gave, Joff," Robb said. "Are you afraid?"

Prince Joffrey looked at him. "Oh, terrified," he said. "You're so much older." Some of the Lannister men laughed.

 

Now given we know that the Starks are trained it would be odd that the younger joffrey was holding his own with  Robb without any training. 

 

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- from what I remember, Rod Cassel wouldn’t let them spar except with practice swords;

Obviously. Why would he let two of the most powerful children in the realm practice with real swords against each other. 

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 Joff’s Record /involvement in combat generally (Blackwater) doesn’t suggest anything of martial prowess - to the point where Tyrion and Cersei are pointing out how much he sucks as a 16 year old relative to Jaime at the same age.

You are thinking of the show, Joffrey died shortly after his 13th birthday. Though it should be pointed out that Jaime was one of best warriors in the series, he likely overshadowed the majority of children his age. 

[Corvo the Crow]

21 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

In the martial culture of Westeros, it appears to me that nobody practices skill at arms amongst the upper tier of Westeros nobility, with the exception of the Starks and the Tyrells. Joffrey and Tommen are the most glaring examples, but Renly, Sweetrobin, and Trystane also show no skill at arms. Is there any reason for this laziness?

Robin is what, 6? Training at arms starts after child becomes a page.

I think Renly had some skills.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

I imagine most of them do, its just that GRRM doesn't see the point in wasting pages showing us these secondary characters training how to use swords. 

In Robert Arryn's case, the kid has a seizure when someone raises their voice at him, and he's so frail that his arm would probably snap if he tried to hit someone with a sword. 

Renly Baratheon has been friends with the Tyrell family all his life. If they have been trained in arms, I imagine he was there training with them. Like Loras, he is more interested in jousting though. 

Cersei probably didn't allow Joffrey or Tommen to train in arms due to her over-protectiveness. I cant speak for Joffrey, but there was a chapter where Tommen wanted Loras to start training him, but Cersei didn't allow it because she was jealous of Tyrell influence over Tommen. 

The only time we have really seen Trystane Martell is when he is playing cyvasse with Myrcella, so we don't really know if he does or doesn't train at arms.