Did the BWB doubt Joffery's legitimacy prior to LSH?

[Varysblackfyre321]

If not does this show an air of inconsistency? Because they're actively shown working against the king's interests(ex.planning to bargain Arya to her rebel brother), yet  at the same time using the moniker of being king's men? 

 

[Kandrax]

I don't think they doubted it. Almost all of the realm didn't.

Now for bargaining, they only wanted money, not join him.

[kissdbyfire]

I don't see the inconsistency... their objective, initially, is to get the Mountain. And Beric, once resurrected the first time, swears to keep at it. Later on their mission morphs into something broader, protecting the smallfolk. I don't think any of the above has anything to do w/ Joffrey's (and Myrcella and Tommen's) bastard status. 

[Trigger Warning]

Generally they're just about justice and protecting the small folk from either side, being's "king's men" is specifically about Robert Baratheon and loyalty to a king from a time before the Riverlands turned into a war torn hellhole. They began riding against Gregor under the King's banner, they hold true to that despite his death and a new king. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't see the inconsistency... their objective, initially, is to get the Mountain. And Beric, once resurrected the first time, swears to keep at it. Later on their mission morphs into something broader, protecting the smallfolk. I don't think any of the above has anything to do w/ Joffrey's (and Myrcella and Tommen's) bastard status. 

If they claim to be acting with the express will and with the king's(namely Robert's) interests it does seem to inconsistent then actively work against the crown;

I mean even the the decree for the mountains' head came from a man who tried to arrest someone thought to be the son of Robert; if they don't believe in the twincest at this point, it seems wrong to count use his writ as justification for why they are acting in the king's name; even when they're robbing people; Arya II "If you'd ever met a true robber, you'd know they do not pay, not even in paper. It's not for us we take your horses, child, it's for the good of the realm, so we can get about more quickly and fight the fights that need fighting. The king's fights. Would you deny the king?"      While helping the current king's enemies or kill or assault the king's allies/followers. 

 

Oh and putting Sandor on trial for the one thing he cannot honestly thought to be legally guilty of; killing a peasant who was said by Sandors' superiors of assaulting the prince and who fled rather than surrender peacefully. 

Arya doesn't even dispute that was in fact the story to which was told by the lanisters and settled upon by the king; she simply says the story to which the Hound freely admits was told to him(by his betters) wasn't true.  Arya's story being true bears no real relevance to whether or not Sandor could be justifibly tried over this. 

The BWB does this all while still saying they are in fact king's men, that they're protecting the realm in Robert's name; "The king is dead," the scarecrow knight admitted, "but we are still king's men, though the royal banner we bore was lost at the Mummer's Ford when your brother's butchers fell upon us." He touched his breast with a fist. "Robert is slain, but his realm remains. And we defend her." while planning to aid the Starks(the family seeking to tear the realm apart through secession-surely Robert wouldn't have wanted that-he would want his heirs to win even if it comes at the cost of some smallfolk being trampled upon-I mean this is a guy who apologized to Ned over losing a family pet, yet honestly didn't seem to care a 13 year old peasant boy was rundown by his son's protector for a crime he knows Mychah didn't commit; and the guy who expressed no outrage over Tywin's handling of the sack of KL)  through shipping one of their daughter's home instead of to KL. 

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If not does this show an air of inconsistency? Because they're actively shown working against the king's interests(ex.planning to bargain Arya to her rebel brother), yet  at the same time using the moniker of being king's men? 

 

Beric believed it and as their leader they follow his cause regardless if what he says contradicts to their actions. 

Given Beric is shown to be not entirely all there, he is likely focusing on the last goal he had, to defend Robert's kingdom. 

[kissdbyfire]

The "last" order Beric followed, or the last mission he was sent on, was to bring the Mountain to justice, dead or alive. Eddard sends Beric on this mission after he hears in court, as Hand, about the atrocities committed by Gregor and his men. It's about justice, and it's about protecting the weak (smallfolk). After he dies - again and again - and starts to forget parts of himself, remembering only some highlights... where he is from, a woman he was betrothed to, and a quest... a mission... for justice. It started as a hunt for Gregor (or his head) and evolved into protecting the small folk in general. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

The "last" order Beric followed, or the last mission he was sent on, was to bring the Mountain to justice, dead or alive. Eddard sends Beric on this mission after he hears in court, as Hand, about the atrocities committed by Gregor and his men. It's about justice, and it's about protecting the weak (smallfolk). After he dies - again and again - and starts to forget parts of himself, remembering only some highlights... where he is from, a woman he was betrothed to, and a quest... a mission... for justice. It started as a hunt for Gregor (or his head) and evolved into protecting the small folk in general. 

Actually Ned sent out Beric to slay the mountainLeaving the man alive wasn't really an option given Ned had already rendered the man guilty and sentenced Gregore to death explicitly-

And, yeah there's still an inconsency in what the brotherhood says what they actually are(King's men), and their actions. 

Which although can said to benifit some smallfolk is often to the detriment to Robert's want for the realm to ruled by his line.

In my opinion Beric seems there enough   by the time we see him in ASOS(hench him not executing the hound for desertion which would be clearly Justice for any lord but not really go overwell with the brotherhood a few at least probably have to be guilty of that crime),  who to where he should understand the hypocrisy of the brotherhood; I feel he recognizes having the label "king's men" would be necessary to keep/gain nobler members of the brotherhood who would want to feel they're not truly criminals who at times commit actions that could be judged as treason; instead  that they're honorble; but yes I will admit he could be too far gone to see any real contradiction between what he says he and the brotherhood want do and want to do and what actually doing.

[Kandrax]

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 helping the current king's enemies

How? They never sided with any side.

[Lady Anna]

12 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If not does this show an air of inconsistency? Because they're actively shown working against the king's interests(ex.planning to bargain Arya to her rebel brother), yet  at the same time using the moniker of being king's men? 

 

Don't they mean King Robert's men? And then they see what the war has come to and just decide to be protectors of the people.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On July 8, 2018 at 3:42 AM, Kandrax said:

How? They never sided with any side.

Jeopardizing the crown's war-effort by slaughtering it's soldiers and hunting it's military commanders(the death of ser Gregor would definitely hurt no), and selling off hostages who'd benifit the enemy to the enemy(ex.Arrya stark to house Stark while they're in open rebellion). They don't really need to fully align with any particular side for an action to be seen as honestly treasonous; a man could sell nuclear arms to his country's enemies without having really allighned with said enemies.

 

[Kandrax]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jeopardizing the crown's war-effort by slaughtering it's soldiers and hunting it's military commanders

They don't consider themselves Joffrey's men, but Robert's, and while latter was alive Gregor was accused of serious crimes and striped  of his titles.

 

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

and selling off hostages who'd benifit the enemy to the enemy

But Joffrey is also their enemy.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On July 8, 2018 at 4:09 AM, Lady Anna said:

Don't they mean King Robert's men? And then they see what the war has come to and just decide to be protectors of the people.

Yes. Robert's men. So it'd make sense to support Robert's dream or plans; which was to have his line continue ruling a united realm. If a few peasants get hurt along away Robert would feel no more sorrow for them than he did for Mycah(who died over his son's lie), or the smallfolk who were savaged during Tywin's sack of KL. 

Protecting some peasants from getting hurt and avenging them, that's all fine and good but if it comes at the cost of lowering the chances of Robert's actual wants(you know his line ruling 7 kingdoms), then the brotherhood is being at least partly disingenuous in what they are.  

And at times hypocritical, the biggest example being Sandor's trial(to which they settled upon after trying to condemn him for his brother's crimes-including-laughably given Robert's stayed feelings-Gregore's butchering of Rheagar's family) ; he was not actually put on trial for any real crime; Sandor put forth he was told by his betters Mychah did and to go fetch the fugitive; at this point Mycah could be taken dead or alive, justifibly. 

Arya said Sandor's superiors lied about Mycha assaulting Joffery; which ultimately doesn't really add anything. 

Hell since  Robert didn't at least remove  Sandor as his son's protector one could honestly say  Robert himself has judged the hound's actions justified. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

They don't consider themselves Joffrey's men, but Robert's, and while latter was alive Gregor was accused of serious crimes and striped  of his titles.

 

But Joffrey is also their enemy.

Joffery is for all they know the heir to Robert and thus their rightful king. They are still citizens of the seven kingdoms so when they act against it's monarch they are in effect commiting treason; their personnel feelings toward the current king ultimately don't change that. A man can be legally a US citizen, yet consider himself a citizen of Mars but he'd still be commiting treason if he sold classified information to the USA's enemies.

[Trigger Warning]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Joffery is for all they know the heir to Robert and thus their rightful king. They are still citizens of the seven kingdoms so when they act against it's monarch they are in effect commiting treason; their personnel feelings toward the current king ultimately don't change that. A man can be legally a US citizen, yet consider himself a citizen of Mars but he'd still be commiting treason if he sold classified information to the USA's enemies.

Is anyone denying that they're committing treason against Joffrey? Genuinely curious I don't recall if they did or not. 

[Kandrax]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Joffery is for all they know the heir to Robert and thus their rightful king. They are still citizens of the seven kingdoms so when they act against it's monarch they are in effect commiting treason; their personnel feelings toward the current king ultimately don't change that. A man can be legally a US citizen, yet consider himself a citizen of Mars but he'd still be commiting treason if he sold classified information to the USA's enemies.

I aggree with you that they commit treason by fighting against Joff's grandfather's forces. However, in their heads dead Robert is still rightfull king, and they have a mission from his time to accomplice.

[Tagganaro]

15 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Joffery is for all they know the heir to Robert and thus their rightful king. They are still citizens of the seven kingdoms so when they act against it's monarch they are in effect commiting treason; their personnel feelings toward the current king ultimately don't change that. A man can be legally a US citizen, yet consider himself a citizen of Mars but he'd still be commiting treason if he sold classified information to the USA's enemies.

maybe so but I don't think they care...they were given simple orders to kill the Mountain by Ned, who they see as an extension of Robert, and are still committed to fulfilling those orders. And over time their purpose morphed when they saw the atrocities being committed by both sides in the war (both Northmen and Westermen) into protecting the smallfolk, which nobody else was doing.  And then that purpose may have been corrupted by Lady Stoneheart and her quest for revenge, which seems to have led to the group fracturing a little bit.

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes. Robert's men. So it'd make sense to support Robert's dream or plans; which was to have his line continue ruling a united realm. If a few peasants get hurt along away Robert would feel no more sorrow for them than he did for Mycah(who died over his son's lie), or the smallfolk who were savaged during Tywin's sack of KL. 

Protecting some peasants from getting hurt and avenging them, that's all fine and good but if it comes at the cost of lowering the chances of Robert's actual wants(you know his line ruling 7 kingdoms), then the brotherhood is being at least partly disingenuous in what they are.  

And at times hypocritical, the biggest example being Sandor's trial(to which they settled upon after trying to condemn him for his brother's crimes-including-laughably given Robert's stayed feelings-Gregore's butchering of Rheagar's family) ; he was not actually put on trial for any real crime; Sandor put forth he was told by his betters Mychah did and to go fetch the fugitive; at this point Mycah could be taken dead or alive, justifibly. 

Arya said Sandor's superiors lied about Mycha assaulting Joffery; which ultimately doesn't really add anything. 

Hell since  Robert didn't at least remove  Sandor as his son's protector one could honestly say  Robert himself has judged the hound's actions justified. 

Again this is all fine and good but this is not the original Brotherhood.  I'm not even sure they'd still even consider themselves King's Men/Robert's men.  Thoros certainly doesn't, he views them as no different than common outlaws by the time Brienne is captured.  

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

maybe so but I don't think they care...they were given simple orders to kill the Mountain by Ned, who they see as an extension of Robert, and are still committed to fulfilling those orders. And over time their purpose morphed when they saw the atrocities being committed by both sides in the war (both Northmen and Westermen) into protecting the smallfolk, which nobody else was doing.  And then that purpose may have been corrupted by Lady Stoneheart and her quest for revenge, which seems to have led to the group fracturing a little bit.

 

When you knowingly act in a way that endanger's the monarch's security you are in effect committing treason. 

Of course the brotherhood cares -a lot of them originally(at least), are Knights, noblemen, people who generally don't who wouldn't want the to be labeled as traitor-if they however pretend they're excercising the now deceased monarch's will, the more nobler parts of the brotherhood can do what they want without fearing they are traitors. Hell, they are going to have to commit petty thievery in order to largely commit petty thievery fund their exploits.

They were given orders to kill the moutain by a man executed for treason against Robert's heir. 

Simply put it'd be fair to simply say the proclamation no longer held anymore in effect.

Their purpose was still to honour their king's demands wishes ; hench keeping envoking Robert especially when committing x crime, hench keeping the labele of King's men. 

The brotherhood largely quested for revenge(which isn't the same thing as justice) to begin with no? Else Sandor would have never been thought to be put on trial for things he didn't do or put on trial.

Stone-heart didn't really corrupt them as much as give them permission to let loose. 

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Again this is all fine and good but this is not the original Brotherhood.  I'm not even sure they'd still even consider themselves King's Men/Robert's men. 

I'm sorry? They put Sandor on trial(while Beric was alive) in ASOS, not AFFC. I'm pretty sure you'd know that so I'm not really sure what your point is here? Please clarify. 

9 hours ago, Kandrax said:

I aggree with you that they commit treason by fighting against Joff's grandfather's forces. However, in their heads dead Robert is still rightfull king, and they have a mission from his time to accomplice.

The mission was granted by a man who tried to arrest their king's son. 

[Tagganaro]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

When you knowingly act in a way that endanger's the monarch's security you are in effect committing treason. 

And again, I would think the Brotherhood would respond:  Who cares?  They have changed from trying to kill the Mountain, to trying to protect the smallfolk, to trying to kill as many Freys/Boltons/Lannisters as possible.  Why do they care about treason?  They specifically had a chance to turn themselves in after Ned died, with many advocating for them to do just that, but they chose to go on.  There is no going back for them.

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Of course the brotherhood cares -a lot of them originally(at least), are Knights, noblemen, people who generally don't who wouldn't want the to be labeled as traitor-if they however pretend they're excercising the now deceased monarch's will, the more nobler parts of the brotherhood can do what they want without fearing they are traitors. Hell, they are going to have to commit petty thievery in order to largely commit petty thievery fund their exploits.

No, they are traitors and will be executed as such no matter what happens.  As I said above, there is no going back for them.  They cannot seek asylum or anything like that from the current monarchy.  The "more nobler" parts of the Brotherhood have probably separated from Stoneheart's band by the time ADWD comes around.

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They were given orders to kill the moutain by a man executed for treason against Robert's heir. 

Simply put it'd be fair to simply say the proclamation no longer held anymore in effect.

 

Ok.  I don't think even they would say the proclamation still stands or that's what they're doing.

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Their purpose was still to honour their king's demands wishes ; hench keeping envoking Robert especially when committing x crime, hench keeping the labele of King's men. 

And that purpose changed, as they have openly stated and as their actions confirm.

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The brotherhood largely quested for revenge(which isn't the same thing as justice) to begin with no? 

Well you can label it however you want, but they claimed to be seeking the King's Justice at first, which yes at its core was revenging themselves on the Mountain for his crimes committed against the smallfolk of the Riverlands at the beginning of the War of the 5 Kings.

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Else Sandor would have never been thought to be put on trial for things he didn't do or put on trial.

What?  Sandor is specifically put on trial for the crime he did commit of killing Mycah, a crime he admitted to.  Now we can debate the legality of that in a feudal world, but the Brotherhood are not concerned with that, especially when their stated mission is protecting the smallfolk.  Do you think they care who ordered it or why?

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Stone-heart didn't really corrupt them as much as give them permission to let loose. 

Semantics I guess?  You could put it either way, Thoros pretty much implies that he thinks Stoneheart and the events of the books have corrupted them.  

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I'm sorry? They put Sandor on trial(while Beric was alive) in ASOS, not AFFC. I'm pretty sure you'd know that so I'm not really sure what your point is here? Please clarify. 

The mission was granted by a man who tried to arrest their king's son. 

 

Meant to delete the Sandor part, was just responding to the first 2 sentences.  As has been noted, what was once their original mission granted by Robert has changed and that is very clear.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

And again, I would think the Brotherhood would respond:  Who cares?  They have changed from trying to kill the Mountain, to trying to protect the smallfolk, to trying to kill as many Freys/Boltons/Lannisters as possible.  Why do they care about treason?  They specifically had a chance to turn themselves in after Ned died, with many advocating for them to do just that, but they chose to go on.  There is no going back for them.

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Because they're honorable men? Well they at least many of them would like to see themselves as such.  And being a traitor doesn't really square with the perception they would want to see themselves as at this point. 

They chose to go on after Ned died mostly because Beric refused who cited their mission-he was after all their commander still. And he's come back from the dead which surely elevates him to higher plane in their eyes. 

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

What?  Sandor is specifically put on trial for the crime he did commit of killing Mycah, a crime he admitted to.  Now we can debate the legality of that in a feudal world, but the Brotherhood are not concerned with that, especially when their stated mission is protecting the smallfolk.  Do you think they care who ordered it or why?

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Killing Mycha legally was not crime; the boy  was found to have assaulted the crown prince by Sandor's superiors who was ordered to fetch this fugitive; Sandor was under no requirement to exhaust himself anymore than had to fufill his task; If Sandor himself acted unjustifiably he would have not needed a trial to determine if he is deserving of death. 

He killed Mycha. He admits this. No one not even Arya is disputing his rebelling of why, which clearly frames him of having not committed an actual crime; hell Ned himself doesn't even think of trying to seek the hound's execution or thinks Sandor has committed a crime. 

If killing Mycah itself was a crime that could not be justified by the justification of just following orders than there was never any need for a trial by combat.

In the end they were going to put the guy on trial for something no matter what; they just landed Mychah ultimately it sounded the least ridiculous reason someone brought up(which given the others being related to a guy whose committed crimes and serving a house the brotherhood dislikes isn't saying much). If they didn't elect to try him for Mychah they'd probably just settle upon trying him for  Gregore's butchering of Rheagar's family; most of them in this instance weren't much in actually imparting justice as much exacting vegence; and showed they could not distinguish the two.

I  think the brotherhood in general didn't care who ordered Sandor to fetch Mychah or the context in which the boy was killed; they just wanted to rob someone and murder said someone for being in any way connected to those they don't like while looking good; much like the Knights Sandor lays into for being hypocrites. 

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Well you can label it however you want, but they claimed to be seeking the King's Justice at first, which yes at its core was revenging themselves on the Mountain for his crimes committed against the smallfolk of the Riverlands at the beginning of the War of the 5 Kings.

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They never stopped claiming they were seeking the king's justice under Beric's tenure as their leader. They were protecting Robert's realm, Robert's people, for King Robert(thus their use of king's men). Robert is cited as their main reason and justification for their actions. 

ASOS Arya VI

"When we left King's Landing we were men of Winterfell and men of Darry and men of Blackhaven, Mallery men and Wylde men. We were knights and squires and men-at-arms, lords and commoners, bound together only by our purpose." The voice came from the man seated amongst the weirwood roots halfway up the wall. "Six score of us set out to bring the king's justice to your brother." The speaker was descending the tangle of steps toward the floor. "Six score brave men and true, led by a fool in a starry cloak." A scarecrow of a man, he wore a ragged black cloak speckled with stars and an iron breastplate dinted by a hundred battles. A thicket of red-gold hair hid most of his face, save for a bald spot above his left ear where his head had been smashed in. "More than eighty of our company are dead now, but others have taken up the swords that fell from their hands." When he reached the floor, the outlaws moved aside to let him pass. One of his eyes was gone, Arya saw, the flesh about the socket scarred and puckered, and he had a dark black ring all around his neck. "With their help, we fight on as best we can, for Robert and the realm."

"Robert?" rasped Sandor Clegane, incredulous.

"Ned Stark sent us out," said pothelmed Jack-Be-Lucky, "but he was sitting the Iron Throne when he gave us our commands, so we were never truly his men, but Robert's."

 

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

No, they are traitors and will be executed as such no matter what happens.  As I said above, there is no going back for them.  They cannot seek asylum or anything like that from the current monarchy.  The "more nobler" parts of the Brotherhood have probably separated from Stoneheart's band by the time ADWD comes around.

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I did not say they weren't traitors-I said they can do what they want by pretending to excercise Robert's will without fearing they are traitors. 

Big diffrence. The lie is important going to many of them; hench continuously repeating it, especially in response when someone points out their unlawful actions. 

It allows them to see themselves as being honorble even they're doing dishonorable things.

 

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Ok.  I don't think even they would say the proclamation still stands or that's what they're doing.

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They clearly do.

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Semantics I guess?  You could put it either way, Thoros pretty much implies that he thinks Stoneheart and the events of the books have corrupted them.  

Lol, Thoros was totally on board with the whole lets murder someone for being related to Gregore;  Arya IV . "Do you deny that House Clegane was built upon dead children? I saw them lay Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys before the Iron Throne. By rights your arms should bear two bloody infants in place of those ugly dogs."

And working for Tywin; 

"You serve the Lannisters of Casterly Rock," said Thoros.

 

How exactly is what the brotherhood doing now that much more egregious than what they and Thoros already wanted to do in ASOS?