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The Queen of Ashes foreshadowing

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I have been re watching the show from season 1, making notes in every episode and paying attention every time they change from one scene to another and its just unbelievable how much foreshadowing there is about Daenerys burning down KL. I believe that both Cersei and Daenerys will destroy Kings Landing fighting for the Throne, but the show has been pointing out to Dany pretty much from season 1.

 

S1 E3 – King Robert calls Jaime Lannister and asks him about the time he killed the Mad King Aerys. He asks Jaime what was the Mad King’s last words and Jaime says the king repeated what he has been saying for hours. **Burn them all**. The next scene its Daenerys in Essos riding with the Dothraki ordering them to stop the horde. Jorah comments that she is starting to speak as a queen and she corrects him: not a queen, a Khalessi.

 

 

 

S1E10 – The sorceress Mirri Maz Dull tells Daenerys she killed her son because he would be the Stallion who Mounts the World, who would burn cities to the ground. The show is very precise about prophecies due the lack of time, they only show what is absolutely necessary. They left this prophecy because it will have relevance in the storyline. We now know that it was not Dany’s son, but Daenerys herself who would be The stallion who mounts. The prophecy says that the Stallion is the "khal of khals" who will unite all the Dothraki under his single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth. That’s what Daenerys did in season 6 and 7. If the prophecy its confirmed, she will be the one burning cities and trampling nations into dust.

 

>Daenerys: My child was innocent.

>Mirri: Innocent? He would be the Stalion who Mounts the World, now **he would burn no cities, now he will trample no nations into dust.**

 

 

S1 E10  Dany decides to kill Khal Drogo and burn his body next to her dragon eggs. She lays next to him and promises to reunite with him one day "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east". The next scene happens in Kings Landing with Maester Pyrcelle and Ross in his room; he is remembering the Mad King and what likeable and charming man he used to be in his youth, before madness took over him.

 

>“Aerys Targaryen, of all the thousands and thousands maladies, the Gods visits us, madness is the worst. He was a good man, such a charmer. To watch him melt away before my eyes, consumed with dreams of Fire and Blood

 

 

The episode ends with Daenerys entering the fire pyre to eventually hatch the eggs and give birth to 3 dragons. She had this idea from a dragon dream in the early nights.

 

S2 E4 - Dany arrives in Qarth and they dont want to let her in, thats the first time she threats to burn down a city and destroy completely.  Daenerys is not mad or insane. Her pride its her weakness, she is a very arrogant young girl and when her pride is hurt she loses her head and makes drastic and terrible decisions. This wont be the last time Daenerys threatens to burn a city to the ground.

 

Daenerys:  Thirteen!!! , when my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me, and destroy those who wronged me, we will lay waste to armies, and burn cities to the ground. Turns us way, and I will burn you first!!!

 

 

 

S2 E5 – Tyrion finds out all the wildfire that its under Kings Landing, he mentions that its enough Wildfire to destroy all city. Tyrion: “The contents of this room could lay Kings Landing low”.

The very next scene is Dany is Qarth, teaching Drogo to obey to her Dracarys order for the first time. 

 

 

S3 E4 –  In this scene, Varys tells Lady Ollena of Littlefinger plans to marry Sansa Stark and tries to alert her of how dangerous Littlefinger really is. Pay attention at the words he uses to describe Littlefinger, those are the exact same words Tyrion used to describe Daenerys when he met her in Meeren.

 

>Varys: "Littlefinger was born with no lands, no wealth, no armies. He acquired the first two, how long before he has the army?" Peharps you laugh, but I know him better than most and this is the truth."Littlefinger is one of the most dangerous men in Westeros.... he would see this country burn if he could be **King of the Ashes**

 

 

 

Varys was afraid that Littlefinger would destroy the realm trying to get the Iron Throne, so he decided to bring Daenerys to Westeros, ironically, she will be the one turning the kingdom into ashes. And here is something even better, this episode S3E4 ends with Daenerys literally acquiring her **first army**. She sacks Astapor and leaves the city with the Unsulied, getting her first army in order to invade Westeros.

 

 

 

 

S3 E7 – In the Throne room Joffrey asks Tywin about Daenerys and wonders if they should do something about her. Tywin dismiss his concerns and tells him that “Curiosities on the far side of the world are no threats to us.

Westeros continues to ignore Daenerys and her dragons. George RRM called Daenerys and the Army of the Dead, much bigger threats that could destory the kingdom, but people were so worried about the selfish politics in Kings Landing that they ignore the danger. Joffrey was the only one who saw it the real problem but everyone ignored him.

>You know, one of the dynamics I started with, there was the sense of people being so consumed by their petty struggles for power within the seven kingdoms, within King’s Landing — who’s going to be king? Who’s going to be on the Small Council? Who’s going to determine the policies? — **that they’re blind to the much greater and more dangerous threats that are happening far away on the periphery of their kingdoms.**

 

 

 

S5E10- Right after the scene where Stannis burns down Sheereen at the stake as a sacrifice for the Lord of Light, they cut to the scene in Meereen where Daenerys and Hizdahr are presenting to the reopening of the Fighting Pits. During their conversation Daenerys explain that sometimes there may be a good reason to burn a city to the ground.

 

Hizdahr - That is a vital part of the Great City of Meereen, which existed long before you and I and will remain standing long after we have returned to the dirt.

Daenerys - One day your great city will return to the dirt as well.

Hizdahr - At your command?

Daenerys - If need to be.

Hizdahr - And how many will die to make their happen?

Daenerys - If it comes to that, they will have died for a good reason.

Hizdahr - Those men (in the fighting pit) think they are dying for a good reason.

Daenerys - Someone else reason.

Hizdahr - So your reasons are true and theirs are false? They don’t know their own minds, but you do?

 

 

This dialogue pretty much sums up Daenerys as a character. She is starting to rationale the idea of burning cities to the ground in order to achieve an objective, as something necessary, while not realizing that she is losing her humanity, just like those men who are fighting in the pits. She is using excuses of a greater cause to justify the deaths of millions. Just like Stannis hate to reason Sheereen sacrifice for the greater good. 

 

 

S6 E6 - Bran Stark has a new series of visions and one of the visions include a dragon flying over Kings Landing. In the DVD comentary the producers D&D made sure to observe that the image of the dragon flying over Kings Landing it was one the most important image of the whole show.

 

 

 

S6 E8 –  Cersei shows up at the Throne room for a Royal announcement, Tommen declares Trial by combat forbidden in all 7 Kingdoms. Cersei then asks Qyburn about the rumor of wildfire under the city, he confirms that the rumors are true and is much bigger than they expected to be.

 

>Qyburn: “Your grace, that old rumor you told me about it. My little birds investigated.

>Cersei: And? Its just a rumor or something more?

>Qyburn? More, so much more….

 

 

The very next scene? Meeren being attacked by the rival cities of Slavery Bay. Missandei tells Tyrion: “The Masters have come to collect their properties”. That’s how Daenerys sees Westeros, something that belongs to her and her alone.

S6E9- Daenerys returns to Meereen and finds the city being attacked by the Masters of the rival cities. She then tells Tyion about her plans against the attack of the rival cities. 

>Daenerys: “I will crucify the masters. I will set their fleets on fire, kill every last one of their soldiers, and return their city to the dirt.”

 

 

 

 

That’s the second time now that Daenerys threats to burn down a city and turn into ashes. The third time will be Kings Landing and no one will be able to stop her then.

 

S6E10 – The scene where Jon Snow is crowned KITN, Lord Cerwyn tells the room that they need to go home.

> Lord Cerwyn: The Boltons are defeated, the war is over, winter has come, if the measters are right it will be the coldest one in a thousands years, we should ride home and wait for the coming storms.

>Jon Snow: The war is not over, and I promise you friend, THE TRUE ENEMY wont wait out the storm, he brings the storm. 

 

 

Daenerys nickname that she likes to repeat is Stormborn) We all were led to believe that The Army of the Dead would be the greatest threat to Westeros, but its Daenerys and her dragons that we should all be scared of.

 

I now believe the Night King and TAOTD was a redherring for the real threath that will devastated Westeros and the way George did was kinf of brilliant. The very first scene of the book and show its the rangers going North of the wall and fiding the White Walkers and we were all so scared and terrified of them. Then the last scene of the book 1 and season 1 its the birth of the dragons and we all celebrated!!! We were soo happy and excited, DRAGONS, thats amazing. But Now I believe that it will be the dragons that will bring  misery to the Kingdom. 

 

They did the same on season 7. In the first episode Daenerys finally arrives on Westeros and we are all so happy, finally!!!! Dragons again flying over Westeros, thats amazing!!! we have been waiting for this for decades, then in the final episode the Army of the Dead breaks down the wall and finally enters the Kingdom and once again we are terrified!!1 They are here, oh my God, what will happen? But it was the dragons, again, in the first episode that we should have been scared of. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

 

We were soo happy and excited, DRAGONS, thats amazing. But Now I believe that it will be the dragons that will bring  misery to the Kingdom. 
 

IIRC, GRRM said there were 2 threats to Westeros, the Ice from the North and the Fire from the East.

In the House of the Undying, Daenerys has a vision of her father:

Quote

"Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," he said to a man below him. "Let him be the king of ashes." Drogon shrieked, his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on.

And in S7 E5, Daenerys commanding over a field of ashes and charred men strongly reminds me of that quote.

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I do think the Night King and the army of the dead will be a huge  threat and a fantastic battle. But the audience is expecting that battle and that enemy to be the one to devastate Westeros, when I believe will be the dragons to do more damage. Very few are expecting Dany to be the final antagonist, most of them are expecting Jon and Dany to marry and rule Westeros restoring House Targaryen forever.

 

Thats why the cast said the ending will be a surprise. 

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Very interesting. I have been waiting for this to happen on the show. I was reading the "Hearsay" thread on this forum last night, and they reiterated one of their initial theories of the WW's being the ones who are going to save Westeros from the Dany/dragon threat.  In the books, I can see this as a strong possibility because there seems to be a lot of mystery surrounding the Starks, the Children, and the Pact of the First Men. On the show, you have pointed to some clues about the destructive potential of the dragons, so perhaps the show might go that route. 

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Nice analysis of the various screen transitions. 

King’s Landing is definetly going to be burned down and it will definetly be because of Dany’s dragons. At this point we know the final battle will be in KL and Dany’s dragons will be on both sides of the battle since the NK has Vicerion so its all but inevitable dragonfire will lay waste to the capital. 

The only real question is how exactly it all unfolds and what the thematic meaning of it is. 

But an ending where Daenerys rules over a broken kingdom she helped burn to the ground has a lot of potential to be a good one. 

Edited by jcmontea

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17 hours ago, prettylongclaw said:

I have been re watching the show from season 1, making notes in every episode and paying attention every time they change from one scene to another and its just unbelievable how much foreshadowing there is about Daenerys burning down KL. I believe that both Cersei and Daenerys will destroy Kings Landing fighting for the Throne, but the show has been pointing out to Dany pretty much from season 1.

 

S1 E3 – King Robert calls Jaime Lannister and asks him about the time he killed the Mad King Aerys. He asks Jaime what was the Mad King’s last words and Jaime says the king repeated what he has been saying for hours. **Burn them all**. The next scene its Daenerys in Essos riding with the Dothraki ordering them to stop the horde. Jorah comments that she is starting to speak as a queen and she corrects him: not a queen, a Khalessi.

 

 

 

S1E10 – The sorceress Mirri Maz Dull tells Daenerys she killed her son because he would be the Stallion who Mounts the World, who would burn cities to the ground. The show is very precise about prophecies due the lack of time, they only show what is absolutely necessary. They left this prophecy because it will have relevance in the storyline. We now know that it was not Dany’s son, but Daenerys herself who would be The stallion who mounts. The prophecy says that the Stallion is the "khal of khals" who will unite all the Dothraki under his single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth. That’s what Daenerys did in season 6 and 7. If the prophecy its confirmed, she will be the one burning cities and trampling nations into dust.

 

>Daenerys: My child was innocent.

>Mirri: Innocent? He would be the Stalion who Mounts the World, now **he would burn no cities, now he will trample no nations into dust.**

 

 

S1 E10  Dany decides to kill Khal Drogo and burn his body next to her dragon eggs. She lays next to him and promises to reunite with him one day "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east". The next scene happens in Kings Landing with Maester Pyrcelle and Ross in his room; he is remembering the Mad King and what likeable and charming man he used to be in his youth, before madness took over him.

 

>“Aerys Targaryen, of all the thousands and thousands maladies, the Gods visits us, madness is the worst. He was a good man, such a charmer. To watch him melt away before my eyes, consumed with dreams of Fire and Blood

 

 

The episode ends with Daenerys entering the fire pyre to eventually hatch the eggs and give birth to 3 dragons. She had this idea from a dragon dream in the early nights.

 

S2 E4 - Dany arrives in Qarth and they dont want to let her in, thats the first time she threats to burn down a city and destroy completely.  Daenerys is not mad or insane. Her pride its her weakness, she is a very arrogant young girl and when her pride is hurt she loses her head and makes drastic and terrible decisions. This wont be the last time Daenerys threatens to burn a city to the ground.

 

Daenerys:  Thirteen!!! , when my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me, and destroy those who wronged me, we will lay waste to armies, and burn cities to the ground. Turns us way, and I will burn you first!!!

 

 

 

S2 E5 – Tyrion finds out all the wildfire that its under Kings Landing, he mentions that its enough Wildfire to destroy all city. Tyrion: “The contents of this room could lay Kings Landing low”.

The very next scene is Dany is Qarth, teaching Drogo to obey to her Dracarys order for the first time. 

 

 

S3 E4 –  In this scene, Varys tells Lady Ollena of Littlefinger plans to marry Sansa Stark and tries to alert her of how dangerous Littlefinger really is. Pay attention at the words he uses to describe Littlefinger, those are the exact same words Tyrion used to describe Daenerys when he met her in Meeren.

 

>Varys: "Littlefinger was born with no lands, no wealth, no armies. He acquired the first two, how long before he has the army?" Peharps you laugh, but I know him better than most and this is the truth."Littlefinger is one of the most dangerous men in Westeros.... he would see this country burn if he could be **King of the Ashes**

 

 

 

Varys was afraid that Littlefinger would destroy the realm trying to get the Iron Throne, so he decided to bring Daenerys to Westeros, ironically, she will be the one turning the kingdom into ashes. And here is something even better, this episode S3E4 ends with Daenerys literally acquiring her **first army**. She sacks Astapor and leaves the city with the Unsulied, getting her first army in order to invade Westeros.

 

 

 

 

S3 E7 – In the Throne room Joffrey asks Tywin about Daenerys and wonders if they should do something about her. Tywin dismiss his concerns and tells him that “Curiosities on the far side of the world are no threats to us.

Westeros continues to ignore Daenerys and her dragons. George RRM called Daenerys and the Army of the Dead, much bigger threats that could destory the kingdom, but people were so worried about the selfish politics in Kings Landing that they ignore the danger. Joffrey was the only one who saw it the real problem but everyone ignored him.

>You know, one of the dynamics I started with, there was the sense of people being so consumed by their petty struggles for power within the seven kingdoms, within King’s Landing — who’s going to be king? Who’s going to be on the Small Council? Who’s going to determine the policies? — **that they’re blind to the much greater and more dangerous threats that are happening far away on the periphery of their kingdoms.**

 

 

 

S5E10- Right after the scene where Stannis burns down Sheereen at the stake as a sacrifice for the Lord of Light, they cut to the scene in Meereen where Daenerys and Hizdahr are presenting to the reopening of the Fighting Pits. During their conversation Daenerys explain that sometimes there may be a good reason to burn a city to the ground.

 

Hizdahr - That is a vital part of the Great City of Meereen, which existed long before you and I and will remain standing long after we have returned to the dirt.

Daenerys - One day your great city will return to the dirt as well.

Hizdahr - At your command?

Daenerys - If need to be.

Hizdahr - And how many will die to make their happen?

Daenerys - If it comes to that, they will have died for a good reason.

Hizdahr - Those men (in the fighting pit) think they are dying for a good reason.

Daenerys - Someone else reason.

Hizdahr - So your reasons are true and theirs are false? They don’t know their own minds, but you do?

 

 

This dialogue pretty much sums up Daenerys as a character. She is starting to rationale the idea of burning cities to the ground in order to achieve an objective, as something necessary, while not realizing that she is losing her humanity, just like those men who are fighting in the pits. She is using excuses of a greater cause to justify the deaths of millions. Just like Stannis hate to reason Sheereen sacrifice for the greater good. 

 

 

S6 E6 - Bran Stark has a new series of visions and one of the visions include a dragon flying over Kings Landing. In the DVD comentary the producers D&D made sure to observe that the image of the dragon flying over Kings Landing it was one the most important image of the whole show.

 

 

 

S6 E8 –  Cersei shows up at the Throne room for a Royal announcement, Tommen declares Trial by combat forbidden in all 7 Kingdoms. Cersei then asks Qyburn about the rumor of wildfire under the city, he confirms that the rumors are true and is much bigger than they expected to be.

 

>Qyburn: “Your grace, that old rumor you told me about it. My little birds investigated.

>Cersei: And? Its just a rumor or something more?

>Qyburn? More, so much more….

 

 

The very next scene? Meeren being attacked by the rival cities of Slavery Bay. Missandei tells Tyrion: “The Masters have come to collect their properties”. That’s how Daenerys sees Westeros, something that belongs to her and her alone.

S6E9- Daenerys returns to Meereen and finds the city being attacked by the Masters of the rival cities. She then tells Tyion about her plans against the attack of the rival cities. 

>Daenerys: “I will crucify the masters. I will set their fleets on fire, kill every last one of their soldiers, and return their city to the dirt.”

 

 

 

 

That’s the second time now that Daenerys threats to burn down a city and turn into ashes. The third time will be Kings Landing and no one will be able to stop her then.

 

S6E10 – The scene where Jon Snow is crowned KITN, Lord Cerwyn tells the room that they need to go home.

> Lord Cerwyn: The Boltons are defeated, the war is over, winter has come, if the measters are right it will be the coldest one in a thousands years, we should ride home and wait for the coming storms.

>Jon Snow: The war is not over, and I promise you friend, THE TRUE ENEMY wont wait out the storm, he brings the storm. 

 

 

Daenerys nickname that she likes to repeat is Stormborn) We all were led to believe that The Army of the Dead would be the greatest threat to Westeros, but its Daenerys and her dragons that we should all be scared of.

 

I now believe the Night King and TAOTD was a redherring for the real threath that will devastated Westeros and the way George did was kinf of brilliant. The very first scene of the book and show its the rangers going North of the wall and fiding the White Walkers and we were all so scared and terrified of them. Then the last scene of the book 1 and season 1 its the birth of the dragons and we all celebrated!!! We were soo happy and excited, DRAGONS, thats amazing. But Now I believe that it will be the dragons that will bring  misery to the Kingdom. 

 

They did the same on season 7. In the first episode Daenerys finally arrives on Westeros and we are all so happy, finally!!!! Dragons again flying over Westeros, thats amazing!!! we have been waiting for this for decades, then in the final episode the Army of the Dead breaks down the wall and finally enters the Kingdom and once again we are terrified!!1 They are here, oh my God, what will happen? But it was the dragons, again, in the first episode that we should have been scared of. 

 

 

You forgot to mention that the the Army of the Dead did not break down the wall. It was a dragon that did it. 

A massive army with a dragon is what the audience has been cheering for the entire time. But the veil was pulled off when the NK burned down the wall with Viserion and the audience came face to face with the horror of what it has actually been cheering for. 

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On 7/8/2018 at 1:11 PM, jcmontea said:

But an ending where Daenerys rules over a broken kingdom she helped burn to the ground has a lot of potential to be a good one. 

I used to think Dany would be ruling over a destroyed Westeros, but not anymore. Now I am pretty sure she will be part of the reason the kingdom will be destroyed.

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CERSEI LANNISTER VS DAENERYS TARGARYEN

 

GRRM himself stated that originally (prior to the split of AFFC and ADWD) we were supposed to directly compare Cersei to Dany. And now I clear know why. These two women are mirros for each other, they may have very different up bring and personalities, but when those women are angry or are faced with adversity their reaction  is pretty much identical. Both choose violence. The show was able to do this in a very clever way and present those similarities even better than the books. During seasons 3, 4 and 5, we will see it Daenerys ruling the city of Meereen and how much her behavior mirrors the behavior of Cersei Lannister in Kings Landing.

 

 

S4E2- Joffrey is poisoned in his own wedding. Cersei, immediately, accuses Tyrion of the murder of her son and orders his arrest.

 

S4E3- Cersei asks Jaime to kill Tyrion, she tells him she doesn’t want a trial because he may escape somehow. Cersei is thirsty for revenge and wants Tyrion dead at all cost. But Jaime refuses to do it.

 

S4E4 – Daenerys takes the city of Meeren and her first decision as a queen is to sentence 163 Great Masters of the city to be crucified. Ser Barristan advices her against it, and tells her to have mercy. She tells him that she will answer injustice with justice. Pay attention to this line because justice will be one of the themes of this season. Daenerys doesn’t asks for a trial, an investigation or cares about the laws of Meereen, she see herself now as the carrier of justice and decides to punish the Masters of Meereen with the same method they used for the children.

 

S4E5 –In Kings Landing Cersei goes to talk to her father, she wants to know what he will do with Tyrion and he tells her that he cant discuss the trial with her but now she is building a strong case against him. Cersei is manipulating witness and making sure Tyrion will be sentence to death.

 

S4E6 – In Meereen Daenerys is ruling and receiving subjects in the Throne room. Hizdahr the son of a very important House and family in Meereen goes to talk to her. He tells her that she crucified his father even tho he was against the practice of killing the children. He doesn’t think its fair to punish a crime with another crime. Daenerys threatens him and tells him that what she did was no crime and he would be wise to remember that. He then asks to, at least, have the right to remove his father from the cross and give him a fair burial ceremony and she agrees with that.

 

In Kings Landing, we have Tyrion’s trial. Cersei has paid many witnesses to speak against her brother. In the recess of the trial Jaime goes to talk to his father and tells him the trial is a farce, he accuses Tywin to wanting to murder Tyrion. **His father replies that its not murder, its justice.** The audience knows there is not justice in this decision, because we know Tyrion to be innocent.

 

S4E8 – Daenerys finally removes the bodies of the dead Masters from the crosses and In Kings Landing Tyrion asks for a trial by combat.

 

S5E1- An unsullied soldier is murdered in a brothel, by a Son of the Harpy. Ser Barristan tells Daenerys about the incident, she orders the Unsullied to find out who did this and brought him to her.

 

S5E2- Cersei receives news of Myrcella in Dorne. Her daughter necklace is sent to KL in a Vipers box. Cersei tells Jaime that “she will burn cities to the ground if they touch her daughter”.

In Meereen the Son of the Harpy who killed the unsullied is arrested; Mossador wants him to be executed while Ser Barristan advices Daenerys to organize a fair trial, to show to the people of Meereen that she is better than the people that she deposed it. Daenerys agress on the trial.

Mossador later decides to kill the Son of the Harpy himself and because of that Daenerys sentences him to death. Mossador was acting exactly like Daenerys did when she arrived in Meereen and ordered the mass crucification and now she is punishing her people for acting like her. The ex slaves furiously react against her decision.

S5E4 – The Sons of the Harpy attack the city and wound Grey Worm and kill Ser Barristan.

 

S5E5 – Daenerys is devastated by Ser Barristan death, so she decides to follow Daario advice. Daenerys arrests the leaders of the great Houses in Meereen and takes them to the dungeons. She burns one man alive and feeds him to her dragons. Once again Dany reactes by anger. She didnt ask for a trail, for an investigation, or for evidence of guilty. She was furious about Ser Barristan death, this death was personal for her, it was a friend, so she needed to have her revenge. She just executed Mossador for murdering a criminal without proper trail and now she is executing an innocent man without proper trial because she is angry at Ser Barristan death.

 

Cersei spent the entire season 4 wanting to kill Tyrion for Joffreys murder but couldn’t do it because, she was stopped by Jaime and her father Tywin. They were able to contain her and didn’t allow her to act on her desires; Daenerys on the other hand crucified 163 noble men, burned an innocent man alive and fed him to her dragons and executed a man for not following the law when she herself only follows the law when she wants. Both women are dangerous, but only one has dragons.

Both women are violent, unfair and vengeful and can be capable of cruel and terrible things once they lose their heads.  Those actions comes from  different places in both women, in Cersei it comes from her selfishness and Daenerys from her impulsiveness, but both cause damage and destruction. The biggest difference between the women is that Dany is genuinely trying to do what good and always feels regretful after those actions. She cares about her people and wants to be a queen, but her temperament and lack of judgment always lets her down, Cersei on the other hand, never once feels remorse. She is just selfish. Both are terrible rulers.

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Well put together post. I always thought Dany was/is going to be the anti-hero of the story. Then with recent seasons, you could see her becoming slightly more mad. It's the path, to me, that makes the most sense for her. I guess now it's just how/why she burns down KL.

Good post though.

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Reviving this thread as the final season approaches. It's important to note that in s6 Tyrion does tell Dany about the wildfire cache under the Red Keep, so she would have to know what attacking it would mean. 

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19 hours ago, Error-504 said:

The theory, while well thought out, is wrong. 

Details! Opposing theories? Where is the juice..

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20 hours ago, Error-504 said:

The theory, while well thought out, is wrong. 

Yes. Please enlighten us. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Yes. Please enlighten us. 

i do not have to have an alternate theory to claim someone else's theory is wrong. Op made several claims and used video that was inconclusive at best. and in some cases just downright misinterpreted (by his/her self) to arrive at his theory. GIGO. 

 

1) False claim number one. Dany should be more feared than the Army of the dead......

Wait....What? How can anyone be more feared than a deity (?) that seeks nothing less than the complete destruction of human kind? No one is claiming Dany is a Saint, but the show is more about the journey, and how one arrives or becomes who they are. Witness Jamie. Dany has put aside her life long ambitions to come to the aid of the North, and she didn't require Jon to "bend the knee" to come to that conclusion. She has gathered and listens to counsel that does not fear to tell her she is wrong, Something Cersei does not do. Before one pass's judgment on the complete or near complete destruction of KL (not saying it will happen, only if it does), one needs to see the context. There are scenarios in which while it would be terribly tragic, it might just be the only way for Humans to survive at all (did someone say "bittersweet"?). Maybe KL is a Westerossi Sodom and gamorroh? furthermore, and destruction that happens to Kl, Cersei is the one that should bear the brunt of the blame, not Dany. had she honored her word, this would not come to pass. 

Edited by Error-504

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14 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

1) False claim number one. Dany should be more feared than the Army of the dead......

Wait....What? How can anyone be more feared than a deity (?) that seeks nothing less than the complete destruction of human kind? No one is claiming Dany is a Saint, but the show is more about the journey, and how one arrives or becomes who they are. Witness Jamie. Dany has put aside her life long ambitions to come to the aid of the North, and she didn't require Jon to "bend the knee" to come to that conclusion. She has gathered and listens to counsel that does not fear to tell her she is wrong, Something Cersei does not do. Before one pass's judgment on the complete or near complete destruction of KL (not saying it will happen, only if it does), one needs to see the context. There are scenarios in which while it would be terribly tragic, it might just be the only way for Humans to survive at all (did someone say "bittersweet"?). Maybe KL is a Westerossi Sodom and gamorroh? furthermore, and destruction that happens to Kl, Cersei is the one that should bear the brunt of the blame, not Dany. had she honored her word, this would not come to pass. 

Who is worshiping the army of the dead? That wouldn't make the NK a deity would it? But anyway, not super important. Also, we haven't seen the WW's point of view (supposedly it will all be explained and according to GRRM they are not just a walking WMD. There is a reason for who/what they are and it's not to just kill. Now, who knows if the show will actually go that way....)

I believe the general conclusion of the theory was that Dany is the threat, intended or unintended, that will destroy Westeros. End of season 6 (very end) and season 7 showed her becoming a "mad queen" or at least on the path of the mad queen. Now that path slows down because she falls in love with Jon. My best guess is she is going to be pretty pissed when she finds out that he is a Targ. Besides the whole incest thing, her whole identity in the beginning was that she was the last living Targ. I assume that Jon will be one of her betrayals (I know the show doesn't talk about this but I could see it with the books).

On top of that, this whole army of the dead is making it down south of the wall now because of Dany (and Jon's awful hunt, so if you want to put more blame on Jon, that makes sense).

People love Dany and see her as the hero of this story. It wouldn't be completely out there to think that she ends up doing the most harm (intended or not) and isn't the hero when this story is done.

I agree Cersei should bear more of the blame, but you can keep taking this argument back further and further. Should be on Tommen for killing himself and letting her usurp the throne. Should be on Robert who married her in the first place/drinks and hunts. Should be on Catelyn for telling Ned to go to King's landing in the first place. We can keep going back in time. In the end, Dany's actions are her own and if she destroys Westeros, that's on her.

In the end, you're right, we won't really know till the show is done and we have context for everything. But the theory isn't blatantly wrong, it could be right. We just don't know...

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Who is worshiping the army of the dead? That wouldn't make the NK a deity would it? But anyway, not super important. Also, we haven't seen the WW's point of view (supposedly it will all be explained and according to GRRM they are not just a walking WMD. There is a reason for who/what they are and it's not to just kill. Now, who knows if the show will actually go that way....)

I believe the general conclusion of the theory was that Dany is the threat, intended or unintended, that will destroy Westeros. End of season 6 (very end) and season 7 showed her becoming a "mad queen" or at least on the path of the mad queen. Now that path slows down because she falls in love with Jon. My best guess is she is going to be pretty pissed when she finds out that he is a Targ. Besides the whole incest thing, her whole identity in the beginning was that she was the last living Targ. I assume that Jon will be one of her betrayals (I know the show doesn't talk about this but I could see it with the books).

On top of that, this whole army of the dead is making it down south of the wall now because of Dany (and Jon's awful hunt, so if you want to put more blame on Jon, that makes sense).

People love Dany and see her as the hero of this story. It wouldn't be completely out there to think that she ends up doing the most harm (intended or not) and isn't the hero when this story is done.

I agree Cersei should bear more of the blame, but you can keep taking this argument back further and further. Should be on Tommen for killing himself and letting her usurp the throne. Should be on Robert who married her in the first place/drinks and hunts. Should be on Catelyn for telling Ned to go to King's landing in the first place. We can keep going back in time. In the end, Dany's actions are her own and if she destroys Westeros, that's on her.

In the end, you're right, we won't really know till the show is done and we have context for everything. But the theory isn't blatantly wrong, it could be right. We just don't know...

Deity:

1) a god or goddess (in a polytheistic religion).

"a deity of ancient Greece"

2) synonyms:god, goddess, divine being, celestial being, supreme being, divinity, immortal; More

divine status, quality, or nature.

"a ruler driven by delusions of deity"

3) the creator and supreme being (in a monotheistic religion such as Christianity).

noun: Deity; noun: the Deity

 

and I did include a (?)

Edited by Error-504

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Who is worshiping the army of the dead? That wouldn't make the NK a deity would it? But anyway, not super important. Also, we haven't seen the WW's point of view (supposedly it will all be explained and according to GRRM they are not just a walking WMD. There is a reason for who/what they are and it's not to just kill. Now, who knows if the show will actually go that way....)

I believe the general conclusion of the theory was that Dany is the threat, intended or unintended, that will destroy Westeros. End of season 6 (very end) and season 7 showed her becoming a "mad queen" or at least on the path of the mad queen. Now that path slows down because she falls in love with Jon. My best guess is she is going to be pretty pissed when she finds out that he is a Targ. Besides the whole incest thing, her whole identity in the beginning was that she was the last living Targ. I assume that Jon will be one of her betrayals (I know the show doesn't talk about this but I could see it with the books).

On top of that, this whole army of the dead is making it down south of the wall now because of Dany (and Jon's awful hunt, so if you want to put more blame on Jon, that makes sense).

People love Dany and see her as the hero of this story. It wouldn't be completely out there to think that she ends up doing the most harm (intended or not) and isn't the hero when this story is done.

I agree Cersei should bear more of the blame, but you can keep taking this argument back further and further. Should be on Tommen for killing himself and letting her usurp the throne. Should be on Robert who married her in the first place/drinks and hunts. Should be on Catelyn for telling Ned to go to King's landing in the first place. We can keep going back in time. In the end, Dany's actions are her own and if she destroys Westeros, that's on her.

In the end, you're right, we won't really know till the show is done and we have context for everything. But the theory isn't blatantly wrong, it could be right. We just don't know...

Now don't get all b--- hurt, I did say it was well thought out. Just wrong that's all. And while the leaks have been kept to a minimum this year, what we do know seems to not coincide with this theory in the OP. Dany is a threat, mainly do to the fact she has three dragons (ok, now had). One could say all the players for the throne were a threat. But she isn't anymore ruthless than the others, quite often quite the opposite. How would Cersei be with three dragons and the Unsullied, as well as the Dothraki? Not too mention she gives dany grief for being a "foreign invader" and at the first possibility, goes and buys a foreign army. 

if Little fingers had Danys forces?

What about Robb Stark, would he lay siege to KL after Neds death?

Stannis?

How old was Dany as she began her ascent to power? Could it be we were just witnessing a young girl/woman grow up? People come up with these theories and then choose to watch/rewatch the show with blinders on. It's too bad, because they miss the entire evolution of a character.  

Edited by Error-504

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On 3/18/2019 at 1:19 PM, btfu806 said:

I believe the general conclusion of the theory was that Dany is the threat, intended or unintended, that will destroy Westeros. End of season 6 (very end) and season 7 showed her becoming a "mad queen" or at least on the path of the mad queen. Now that path slows down because she falls in love with Jon. My best guess is she is going to be pretty pissed when she finds out that he is a Targ. Besides the whole incest thing, her whole identity in the beginning was that she was the last living Targ. I assume that Jon will be one of her betrayals (I know the show doesn't talk about this but I could see it with the books).

I lean toward this as well. She can go either way. But right now I can't really see Dany doing heroic things all the way to the end because, the message would be, Jon fucked the bad out of her. Like I don't want the story to conclude that yes, Jon's dick absolved all of her desires to be a conquering dragon. A man redeemed her and because of him, she's seen the "light," and ended the quest to achieve something she's worked her whole life for. . .like if people want this awful storyline they have no right to complain about D&D's writing.

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4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I lean toward this as well. She can go either way. But right now I can't really see Dany doing heroic things all the way to the end because, the message would be, Jon fucked the bad out of her. Like I don't want the story to conclude that yes, Jon's dick absolved all of her desires to be a conquering dragon. A man redeemed her and because of him, she's seen the "light," and ended the quest to achieve something she's worked her whole life for. . .like if people want this awful storyline they have no right to complain about D&D's writing.

Not that Dany had in inordinate amount (as in more than any other person)of bad in her, but for sake of argument, did you ever consider motherhood might change her?

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Just now, Error-504 said:

Not that Dany had in inordinate amount (as in more than any other person)of bad in her, but for sake of argument, did you ever consider motherhood might change her?

As bad as... any other person starting an unnecessary war for the throne? Sure. That's her comparison group. So within that, women who work their way to the top, even if its a questionable path, suddenly give up because they're pregnant is even worse lol

She's Aegon the C and the head of the Dothraki and the most powerful person on earth...

Ooops nevermind *insert love story + baby story that changes her entire goal* 

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