The Queen of Ashes foreshadowing

[Error-504]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

As bad as... any other person starting an unnecessary war for the throne? Sure. That's her comparison group. So within that, women who work their way to the top, even if its a questionable path, suddenly give up because they're pregnant is even worse lol

She's Aegon the C and the head of the Dothraki and the most powerful person on earth...

Ooops nevermind *insert love story + baby story that changes her entire goal* 

You do realize Stannis killed his own brother, and burned his daughter alive trying to get to the throne, right?

[Error-504]

34 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

You do realize Stannis killed his own brother, and burned his daughter alive trying to get to the throne, right?

Meanwhile Cersei has committed how many atrocities in her pursuit of the Iron Throne? Remember the Sept of Baelor, or the more recent betrayal of her word to help Jon Snow defeat the WW's. How many innocents will die as a result of that?

 

And Little-finger, who singlehandedly was responsible for the war of five kings and all manors of chaos that resulted in the death of innocents?

Dany pales in comparison as a threat to the people of Westeros, and despite her words, has at least shown some level of companion and restraint in her pursuit. 

So, in conclusion, Dany isn't any more "mad" than any of the other players for the throne, and in fact a good argument can be made she is the most sane of the bunch. Dany very well can be more formidable, but that in an of itself is not proof of being a greater danger. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

45 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

You do realize Stannis killed his own brother, and burned his daughter alive trying to get to the throne, right?

That's brand new information!!

You know they're both about even in my mind. Dany burns people, Stannis burns people. Dany cooked people alive in their armor and burnt the food. Famine is her fault now. 

One redeeming quality Stannis had that Dany lacked is that he didn't require a look at the zombies before he moved his forces North. 

If Dany is a grey character it means she does bad stuff, and good stuff. Why is it a struggle to admit the former?

[Error-504]

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That's brand new information!!

You know they're both about even in my mind. Dany burns people, Stannis burns people. Dany cooked people alive in their armor and burnt the food. Famine is her fault now. 

One redeeming quality Stannis had that Dany lacked is that he didn't require a look at the zombies before he moved his forces North. 

If Dany is a grey character it means she does bad stuff, and good stuff. Why is it a struggle to admit the former?

 

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That's brand new information!!

You know they're both about even in my mind. Dany burns people, Stannis burns people. Dany cooked people alive in their armor and burnt the food. Famine is her fault now. 

One redeeming quality Stannis had that Dany lacked is that he didn't require a look at the zombies before he moved his forces North. 

If Dany is a grey character it means she does bad stuff, and good stuff. Why is it a struggle to admit the former?

Stannis moved North to fight the wildlings, not some zombies that haven't been seen in 1,000 years and were thought just myths. Dany burned people she was at war with. Stannis burned his own daughter, and killed his own brother, hardly comparable. Big fail on your part. Oh, and it was her food to burn, the Lannisters had stolen the food from the Reach, Dany's allies. 

 

They are all grey characters, the OP said Dany was the biggest threat. I disagree. Why is it a struggle to understand that? 

[Rose of Red Lake]

6 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Stannis moved North to fight the wildlings, not some zombies that haven't been seen in 1,000 years and were thought just myths.

He siezed the wildling threat as an opportunity but he believed Mel about the Great War which is also why he goes. GRRM has said this about Stannis: "the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI."

Dany hesitated and Stannis did not. For all his faults he acted decisively and Dany needed to be dragged into doing the right thing on this particular subject.

6 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Dany burned people she was at war with. Stannis burned his own daughter, and killed his own brother, hardly comparable. Big fail on your part.

Anyone who burns people alive isnt a lilly white hero. Dany rounds up people to cook them with her dragons. Jon mercy kills Mance Raydar to save him from having to suffer being burned alive. Dany burns people alive in an unnecessary war, Jon banishes Melisandre from the North for burning a little girl. Now, Jon killed a kid, lied to everyone about his loyalties, was willing to murder Mance under false pretenses, but there's a contrast here. There are characters who don't burn people alive, and then there is Dany, Stannis, Melisandre, and Cersei.

6 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Oh, and it was her food to burn, the Lannisters had stolen the food from the Reach, Dany's allies. 

Doesn't matter. You dont burn food with Winter approaching. It was stupid. She could have siezed it and taken it North with her. Now it's Sansa's problem to solve to feed Dany's armies. She just barrels through and destroys shit and creates more problems than she solves. It also perfectly illustrates everything the author has said about dragons, that it is akin to nuclear power, and that it doesn't give Dany power to build, reform, or improve. This tracks perfectly with the OP's theory. Her dragons are more likely to destroy than do the most good. Because then the message would be "nukes are good, they can solve your problems."

[btfu806]

19 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I lean toward this as well. She can go either way. But right now I can't really see Dany doing heroic things all the way to the end because, the message would be, Jon fucked the bad out of her. Like I don't want the story to conclude that yes, Jon's dick absolved all of her desires to be a conquering dragon. A man redeemed her and because of him, she's seen the "light," and ended the quest to achieve something she's worked her whole life for. . .like if people want this awful storyline they have no right to complain about D&D's writing.

Maybe a resurrected Jon has a magical dick? haha.

I also think it would be a better story (overall) if she keeps going down this "bad" path. But personally I think D&D don't like to piss off their pop culture base and I don't see her getting redeemed by a man. That wouldn't go well with this character that they have built to be a "OMG Girl Power/bad-ass" character. She either has to come back on her own (which I am not sure how they do, but D&D may be able to "creatively" justify it) or she keeps going down this path, which may upset some people but the story I think would be better.

[Rose of Red Lake]

I wanted to add in some book foreshadowing to complement OP's post.

In Dany's first chapter, when she and Viserys are "formally" introduced with titles, notice the background:

Quote

“Inside the manse, the air was heavy with the scent of spices, pinchfire and sweet lemon and cinnamon. They were escorted across the entry hall, where a mosaic of colored glass depicted the Doom of Valyria. Oil burned in black iron lanterns all along the walls. Beneath an arch of twining stone leaves, a eunuch sang their coming. “Viserys of the House Targaryen, the Third of his Name,” he called in a high, sweet voice, “King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the SevenKingdoms and Protector of the Realm. His sister, Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone. His honorable host, Illyrio Mopatis, Magister of the Free City of Pentos.” - Daenerys I, AGOT

They are announced with a burning city in the background.

Wildfire is introduced in Clash as needing a trigger:

Quote

“As it ages, the substance grows ever more, hmmmm, fickle, let us say. Any flame will set it afire. Any spark. Too much heat and jars will blaze up of their own accord” - Tyrion, V, ACOK

The pyromancers are attached to Targaryen history, and within this conversation we see the first reference to burning the city down:

Quote

“The substance flows through my veins, and lives in the heart of every pyromancer. We respect its power. But the common soldier, hmmmm, the crew of one of the queen’s spitfires, say, in the unthinking frenzy of battle . . . any little mistake can bring catastrophe. That cannot be said too often. My father often told King Aerys as much, as his father told old King Jaehaerys.”
“They must have listened,” Tyrion said. “If they had burned the city down, someone would have told me.” - Tyrion V, ACOK

Later in the same chapter, there is a prophet who appears to predict the burning of the city. Seems like a nutjob, but when combined with the show foreshadowing when Dany constantly mentions burning cities to the ground, it helps you notice a few things:

Quote

“Corruption!” the man cried shrilly. “There is the warning! Behold the Father’s scourge!” He pointed at the fuzzy red wound in the sky. From this vantage, the distant castle on Aegon’s High Hill was directly behind him, with the comet hanging forebodingly over its towers. A clever choice of stage, Tyrion reflected. 

In the show, the comet has been directly referenced as a symbol of dragons. In the books, Varys says that its a symbol of "fire and blood" to follow. The prophet continues:

Quote

He jabbed his bony finger back at comet and castle. “There comes the Harbinger! Cleanse yourselves, the gods cry out, lest ye be cleansed! Bathe in the wine of righteousness, or you shall be bathed in fire! Fire!”
“Fire!”
- Tyrion, V, ACOK

It's interesting to note the phrase "cleansing" associated with fire which is what Kinvara says about Dany: “The dragons will purify non-believers by the thousands. Burning their sins and flesh away.” Dany also has a dream that associates fire with being clean. Jaime says Aerys would have "bathed" in wildfire.

Tyrion almost has a heart-attack moment: 

Quote

“Fire!” a voice screamed down from atop the barbican. “My lords, there’s smoke in the city. Flea Bottom’s afire.”
Tyrion was inutterably weary, but there was no time for despair. “Bronn, take as many men as you need and see that the water wagons are not molested,” Gods be good, the wildfire, if any blaze should reach that . . .” - Tyrion, VIII, ACOK

The imagery of the wildfire on the Blackwater contains some interesting foreshadowing too:

Quote

“A dozen great fires raged under the city walls, where casks of burning pitch had exploded, but the wildfire reduced them to no more than candles in a burning house, their orange and scarlet pennons fluttering insignificantly against the jade holocaust. The low clouds caught the color of the burning river and roofed the sky in shades of shifting green, eerily beautiful.

A terrible beauty. Like dragonfire. Tyrion wondered if Aegon the Conqueror had felt like this as he flew above his Field of Fire.” - Tyrion, XIII, ACOK

Why does Tyrion think of dragon fire when he looks at the wildfire? Furthermore, candles in a burning house is exactly what Dany thinks when she sees "home":

Quote

“It was King’s Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind’s eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind’s eye, all the doors were red.” - Daenerys III, AGOT

She could be seeing the burning of King's Landing. Contrasting colors of fire is also observed as battling, with fire being described as a beast, and dragons are beasts of war. Fire + beasts typically means dragons:

Quote

“The southern sky was aswirl with glowing, shifting colors, the reflections of the great fires that burned below. Baleful green tides moved against the bellies of the clouds, and pools of orange light spread out across the heavens. The reds and yellows of common flame warred against the emeralds and jades of wildfire, each color flaring and then fading, birthing armies of short-lived shadows to die again an instant later.” - Sansa VI, ACOK

More beast/fire associations:

Quote

“The nightfire burned against the gathering dark, a great bright beast whose shifting orange light threw shadows twenty feet tall across the yard. All along the walls of Dragonstone the army of gargoyles and grotesques seemed to stir and shift.” - Davos VI, ASOS

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“She could smell the odor of burning flesh, no different than horseflesh roasting in a firepit. The pyre roared in the deepening dusk like some great beast, drowning out the fainter sound of Mirri Maz Duur’s screaming and sending up long tongues of flame to lick at the belly of the night. . . The heat beat at the air with great red wings, driving the Dothraki back, driving off even Mormont, but Dany stood her ground. She was the blood of the dragon, and the fire was in her.” - Daenerys X, AGOT, 

Back to Tyrion's chapters. Mentioning dragons over the city now, when wildfire comes up:

Quote

“No, no,” Hallyne squeaked, “the sums are accurate, I swear. We have been, hmmm, most fortunate, my lord Hand. Another cache of Lord Rossart’s was found, more than three hundred jars. Under the Dragonpit! Some whores have been using the ruins to entertain their patrons, and one of them fell through a patch of rotted floor into a cellar. When he felt the jars, he mistook them for wine. He was so drunk he broke the seal and drank some.”
“There was a prince who tried that once,” said Tyrion dryly. “I haven’t seen any dragons rising over the city, so it would seem it didn’t work this time either.” - Tyrion XI, ACOK

I have to admit the association between drinking wine/wildfire makes us think of Cersei. Sansa also thinks that her eyes are feverish like wildfire. But then right next to this drinking/wildfire line is a mention of dragons. 

Also, dragons make wildfire more potent. Dany caused this:

Quote

“They, hmmm, seem to be working better than they were.” Hallyne smiled weakly. “You don’t suppose there are any dragons about, do you?”
“Not unless you found one under the Dragonpit. Why?”
“Oh, pardon, I was just remembering something old Wisdom Pollitor told me once, when I was an acolyte. I’d asked him why so many of our spells seemed, well, not as effectual as the scrolls would have us believe, and he said it was because magic had begun to go out of the world the day the last dragon died.” - Tyrion XI, ACOK

And she's associated with burning cities:

Quote

 

“Instead the girl turns up on Slaver’s Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruins as well.” - The Lost Lord, ADWD

 

Amidst all this foreshadowing in Clash, as she encounters the ruined cities that the Dothraki created, she thinks:

Quote

“The Dothraki sacked cities and plundered kingdoms, they did not rule them. Dany had no wish to reduce King’s Landing to a blackened ruin full of unquiet ghosts. She had supped enough on tears. I want to make my kingdom beautiful, to fill it with fat men and pretty maids and laughing children. I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father.
But before she could do that she must conquer.” - Daenerys II, ACOK

That last line is ominous, and she wants to be smiled at like she thinks people smiled for Aerys. She doesn't want to destroy at this early stage, but this runs counter to the foreshadowing listed above and in the show. As she leads the Dothraki, she becomes more like them.

Yes, Cersei is associated with wildfire but:

Quote

“The Targaryens were all mad for fire." - Jaime, ASOS

In light of this, we have a chain reaction that could be seen in S8. Aerys created it, Cersei and Tyrion use it in different ways, and Dany sets it off. But she has to know its there because Tyrion tells her about it in the show.

[Error-504]

14 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He siezed the wildling threat as an opportunity but he believed Mel about the Great War which is also why he goes. GRRM has said this about Stannis: "the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI."

Dany hesitated and Stannis did not. For all his faults he acted decisively and Dany needed to be dragged into doing the right thing on this particular subject.

Anyone who burns people alive isnt a lilly white hero. Dany rounds up people to cook them with her dragons. Jon mercy kills Mance Raydar to save him from having to suffer being burned alive. Dany burns people alive in an unnecessary war, Jon banishes Melisandre from the North for burning a little girl. Now, Jon killed a kid, lied to everyone about his loyalties, was willing to murder Mance under false pretenses, but there's a contrast here. There are characters who don't burn people alive, and then there is Dany, Stannis, Melisandre, and Cersei.

Doesn't matter. You dont burn food with Winter approaching. It was stupid. She could have siezed it and taken it North with her. Now it's Sansa's problem to solve to feed Dany's armies. She just barrels through and destroys shit and creates more problems than she solves. It also perfectly illustrates everything the author has said about dragons, that it is akin to nuclear power, and that it doesn't give Dany power to build, reform, or improve. This tracks perfectly with the OP's theory. Her dragons are more likely to destroy than do the most good. Because then the message would be "nukes are good, they can solve your problems."

lol, YEAH OKKKKKKKKKK..........

 

None of your rebuttals proved your point, none. That issue wasn't is Dany "Lilly White" But hey, nice straw man attempt!

Dany's "hesitation" lasted what? Five days max? Even Jon said he couldn't blame her for that, she had never heard of the WW's before. 

Your food point is the most moronic of all. I don't believe you have the least little clue about war. Not surprising. Seize the food, then what ship it to Dragonstone, and then to the North (and at this time Dany had not committed to the northern cause)? 

 

At any rate, continue on, only a few weeks until your proven wrong anyways. Of which I am sure you will abandon this thread in it's entirety. 

[Cas Stark]

Wouldn't burning a train load of food when winter is coming be stupid, just on general principle?  Whether you intended to use that food to feed KL, or ship it North or use it for your giant Dothraki army, you could certainly have put it to better use than to dracarys it.  

[Error-504]

20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Wouldn't burning a train load of food when winter is coming be stupid, just on general principle?  Whether you intended to use that food to feed KL, or ship it North or use it for your giant Dothraki army, you could certainly have put it to better use than to dracarys it.  

I would depend on how well stocked Dany is on provisions, something the show has not shared with us. Blocking supplies to KL is one way to win the war against Cersei without killing innocents (in theory). Such as when Stannis was blockaded by the Reach in he war of five kings. It was also a show of force, a means to intimidate the Lannisters (and it worked on jamie).  

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Error-504 said:

I would depend on how well stocked Dany is on provisions, something the show has not shared with us. Blocking supplies to KL is one way to win the war against Cersei without killing innocents (in theory). Such as when Stannis was blockaded by the reach in he war of five kings. it was also a show of force, a means to intimidate the Lannisters (and it worked on jamie).  

It was a beautiful scene, but really, be serious.  Destroying a massive amount of food supplies when winter is upon the land, and there will be no more harvests for several years,  is stupid.  It just is.  Even the show seems to acknowledge this was stupid given the look on Tyrion's face.  She didn't "block the supplies" she incinerated them, so they are no good to her, not a bargaining chip, not useful for her allies, they're gone. Stupid.

[Error-504]

16 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It was a beautiful scene, but really, be serious.  Destroying a massive amount of food supplies when winter is upon the land, and there will be no more harvests for several years,  is stupid.  It just is.  Even the show seems to acknowledge this was stupid given the look on Tyrion's face.  She didn't "block the supplies" she incinerated them, so they are no good to her, not a bargaining chip, not useful for her allies, they're gone. Stupid.

And maybe if Dany had a clue as to the fact "winter was coming" she might have thought that out better. But she was not raised in the North, and probably doesn't understand what all that implies. At any rate, the debate is getting of on a tangent as it was never intended to be a "has Dany ever made tactical mistakes" argument. Obviously she has. If her attempt was a massive show of force, and  as a result Cersei negotiated a surrender, then that attack would have been a massive success, regardless of the food. Had she managed to stop the gold (and people arguing the stupidity of destroying the food conveniently forget about the gold) arriving to KL, it would have accomplished just that. 

[NonoNono]

Good catch!

Dany has an eunuch army, barbarian army, pirate army, and soon wildlings who people will say she brought over by destroying the wall with her dragon(s).

I believe Bran will foresee and tell her she won't take the Iron Throne, that she will live her life in Winterfell, and she won't accept it and panic and leave before the NK even comes to Winterfell.

But I wonder if she will attack King's Landing. It could go both ways really, but I can imagine her disappearing, and eventually dropping the "Fire & Blood", coming back to Winterfell, after everything is over. But Drogon would have none of that, he'd go and burn KL anyway on his own.

If she does attack KL, then I think she will with Euron, after he gets rid of Cersei. Summon a kraken to destroy the GC's fleet, while Dany attacks with drogon, and eventually they both die anyway. In the books she is called the Destroyer of Lies, and it's possible that Dany will and has changed the course of history by refusing to accept fate, so even Bran's vision could fail to occur, and it would be partially because he told her her future.

I prefer the former though. Dany, living in the ruins of Winterfell with the banished King Beyond the (new) Wall, Ned's Bastard, Jon Snow, while Aegon VI (who opportunistically stole Jon's thunder) is the new king, Sansa his queen.

edit: Now that I think about it, I think Winterfell is burned by her dragons after she is betrayed, or killed, or her dragons are attacked. Either she burns Winterfell herself, or the dragons do it because she's dead or out of control. I can imagine Jon becoming the new NK, raising her back from the dead, ruling over ruined Winterfell. In S7 the treachery against Dany was already starting with Glover and Royce.

[21st Century Moose]

On 3/22/2019 at 1:43 AM, Cas Stark said:

Wouldn't burning a train load of food when winter is coming be stupid, just on general principle?  Whether you intended to use that food to feed KL, or ship it North or use it for your giant Dothraki army, you could certainly have put it to better use than to dracarys it.  

Why do you assume that she even knew what was in the train?

We as viewers knew it was food, because we heard the characters discussing it.  Did Dany know that?  Did she have any reason to know it, or any way of knowing it?

[Mystical]

On 3/22/2019 at 2:43 AM, Cas Stark said:

Wouldn't burning a train load of food when winter is coming be stupid, just on general principle?  Whether you intended to use that food to feed KL, or ship it North or use it for your giant Dothraki army, you could certainly have put it to better use than to dracarys it.  

It's especially funny when earlier in the same episode where she burned the food, she herself stated she was having trouble feeding her army. Talk about a facepalm worthy action of stupidity. Don't have food to feed your army, burn food.

9 hours ago, 21st Century Moose said:

Why do you assume that she even knew what was in the train?

We as viewers knew it was food, because we heard the characters discussing it.  Did Dany know that?  Did she have any reason to know it, or any way of knowing it?

Because she has eyes. And she was close enough to the ground with Drogon once or twice to see what was in the train. Besides, Winter is coming and the Reach is one of the most fertile regions. Anyone with a working brain would know that only taking gold with from there would be stupid when you can also take food with you.

[21st Century Moose]

2 hours ago, Mystical said:

And she was close enough to the ground with Drogon once or twice to see what was in the train. 

To see what was inside covered wagons?  Yeah, right.

Maybe it's only stupid because you want it to be stupid.

[Mystical]

5 hours ago, 21st Century Moose said:

To see what was inside covered wagons?  Yeah, right.

Maybe it's only stupid because you want it to be stupid.

If you'd actually watched the episode and paid attention you would have seen that not all wagons were covered. And even if they were, burning them was stupid no matter what angle. If it was gold, it could have been used to BUY food. If it was weapon materials, also a good thing to have in WAR. So no matter what, it was stupid, stupid, stupid to burn the wagon trails. Only an idiot would think that a wagon trail accompanied by an army isn't transporting important stuff. And only an idiot would burn it all down.

[Zorral]

But, you forget how really cool it looked, having the baggage train carpet bombed and burn burn babee burn!

[Ser Gareth]

On 3/27/2019 at 3:36 PM, Zorral said:

But, you forget how really cool it looked, having the baggage train carpet bombed and burn burn babee burn!

Exactly this.  It's a TV show and fantasy story.  Certain people get way too caught up on meaningless events like this.  It was awesome TV and that's all that matters.

[Zorral]

19 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Exactly this.  It's a TV show and fantasy story.  Certain people get way too caught up on meaningless events like this.  It was awesome TV and that's all that matters.

Well, that wasn't the intention of the remark. 

Stoopid -- and so very Very VERY much of it -- ruined any enjoyment of this program.  Not to mention spending entire full 10 - 11 minutes of detailed torture and humiliation and degredation over and Over and OVER.  Just coz they thought it looked good on the screen it wasn't good and it was a mistake, which overall cheapened and hurt the narrative and characters up to the incomprehensibility.