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Byfort of Corfe

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  • 3 weeks later...

I believe that bittersweet, epic though logical endings always leave us somehow disappointed in the first moment, but make up for it in the long-run.

There are fans expecting a "happily ever after" and they will be disappointed, rightly so. This is not to be expected at all.

There are fans expecting a reasonable explanation and all the threads culminating. I hope they will get what they bargain for.

"Epic" in this case should mean, the story is really told, no loose ends, no cliff hangers, Ice and Fire somehow having told their story.

I really hope they get it done in an epic, grand manner.

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Let's be real, not everyone is going to be happy with whatever ending they choose. It can be the happily ever after, it can be bittersweet or it can be absolutely depressing. It's going to upset someone. 

I know GRRM compares his ending to a bittersweet ending like LOTR (which I didn't think was bittersweet but w/e). But honestly, I don't see D&D doing anything bittersweet. I think the majority of TV viewers expect a somewhat or mostly happy ending and that's what we will get, I think D&D will pander to the casual audience, like they seem to have for the past few seasons. I am not bashing them for this, don't get me wrong, they are just doing what the majority of their viewers want to see.

In the end, I don't think everything will be great and happy, but it mostly will.

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1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

I think D&D will pander to the casual audience

First of all, the finale will not influence turnover. They do not need to cater to the audience anymore. It's over.

Secondly,  I very much trust both DD and GRRM to keep their promise that the end of the book and the end of the show will be mostly identical. The path might wind a little bit differently, the books more complex, but start and end point are the same. This is a promise they have to keep and I trust they will. So DD will not significantly change the outcome. If GRRM has a bittersweet ending with his intended morale, then it this way it will be. I trust GRRM to have had an finale in mind from 1990s onward and he will stick with it. The general layout and the morale of the storyline will be fixed. 

The "wheel of power" to be broken, which major characters will survive and how Westeros looks in the end. Maybe DD change some romantic details or the fate of some secondary characters, but not the general outcome.

I am sure GRRM knew from the beginning which characters will die and which will survive. This will not change for the main characters -- and certainly some of the major ones will die. DD won't change that.

1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

like they seem to have for the past few seasons.

Have they? How do you know? Do you have concrete examples? Please elaborate in this hypothesis.

The audience would have liked to see more dire wolves. Nothing there but a disappointing scene.  No unexpected romances, no Hollowood-ish nonsense really.

The only thing I would critisise is that they got less daring, less graphic violent, less sexual explicit. They turned to mainstream, unfortunately. So yes, in this sense they catered for a broader audience, but not really along the wished of the core audience of the first seasons.

In the end, I don't think everything will be great and happy, but it mostly will.

I hope they will explain all important threads and leave no cliffhangers. Hopefully they explain this 3-eyed raven stuff, why the Night King acts like he does and have a good solution for breaking the wheel.

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On 7/8/2018 at 6:43 AM, Byfort of Corfe said:

That you will be disappointed by the ending. I think that fans are really expecting this epic end, the kind where you say "Man, that was GREAT!" and I think that expectations have placed it so high that it almost has to disappoint.  

I don't think I will be disappointed in the ending. 

Both Martin novels I have read - Fevre Dream and Dying of the Light - had great endings so I think whatever they have cooked up will be good.

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Everyone's got their own headcannon for how things should go.  They want character A to live, character B to die, characters C&D to hook up, etc.  Absolutely no one is getting everything on their want list.

If you are prepared to be wrong about many of your theories going into it, you will be able to enjoy it.  

But I'm sure there will be lots of bitter shippers, and angry people calling the ending too disney because a character they hated lived, and another group calling it too depressing because a character they liked died.  Just the way it goes.    

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15 hours ago, Ser Wun Wun said:

Everyone's got their own headcannon for how things should go.  They want character A to live, character B to die, characters C&D to hook up, etc.  Absolutely no one is getting everything on their want list.

If you are prepared to be wrong about many of your theories going into it, you will be able to enjoy it.  

But I'm sure there will be lots of bitter shippers, and angry people calling the ending too disney because a character they hated lived, and another group calling it too depressing because a character they liked died.  Just the way it goes.    

you can’t please everyone, especially not when people are rooting for characters and outcomes vs just the story to be good and meaningful 

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On 8/3/2018 at 9:10 AM, Kajjo said:

First of all, the finale will not influence turnover. They do not need to cater to the audience anymore. It's over.

They do though. They don't want a "Sopranos" type ending. They have arguably one of the greatest TV shows of all time, and if they end up with an ending awful that people hate .... that's not good. 

 

On 8/3/2018 at 9:10 AM, Kajjo said:

Secondly,  I very much trust both DD and GRRM to keep their promise that the end of the book and the end of the show will be mostly identical. The path might wind a little bit differently, the books more complex, but start and end point are the same. This is a promise they have to keep and I trust they will. So DD will not significantly change the outcome. If GRRM has a bittersweet ending with his intended morale, then it this way it will be. I trust GRRM to have had an finale in mind from 1990s onward and he will stick with it. The general layout and the morale of the storyline will be fixed. 

The "wheel of power" to be broken, which major characters will survive and how Westeros looks in the end. Maybe DD change some romantic details or the fate of some secondary characters, but not the general outcome.

I am sure GRRM knew from the beginning which characters will die and which will survive. This will not change for the main characters -- and certainly some of the major ones will die. DD won't change that.

Obviously like you have stated, how they get there will be different. To me (and this is more of a personal thing) the path to get to the "good" or "bad" ending is important. If it doesn't make sense or is silly or w/e else, then it doesn't matter how good the ending is. 

I also have other issues with GRRM saying he is a gardener of story but yet knows where his story is going. If you ever read Stephen King's On Writing he talks about a true gardener approach of he has no idea how it will end, or maybe has an idea but it doesn't usually go that direction. If GRRM is a true gardener then he may have an idea where he likes it to go, doesn't mean it's going to. But then again, maybe that's why these last two books are taking so long? Trying to force it in that direction? IDK.

On 8/3/2018 at 9:10 AM, Kajjo said:

Have they? How do you know? Do you have concrete examples? Please elaborate in this hypothesis.

The audience would have liked to see more dire wolves. Nothing there but a disappointing scene.  No unexpected romances, no Hollowood-ish nonsense really.

The only thing I would critisise is that they got less daring, less graphic violent, less sexual explicit. They turned to mainstream, unfortunately. So yes, in this sense they catered for a broader audience, but not really along the wished of the core audience of the first seasons.

As far as pandering:

The Hound is most likely done in the books. His arc is as complete as it can get. He came back because the audience wants Cleganebowl, and it's going to happen (that will be another pander).

I would argue the whole magnificent seven getting together and taking a trip to kill WW up north is pandering, people wanted to see that group together for a while just killing stuff. Even if the quest made no sense whatsoever... but I get that if you disagree with that.

If you trust GRRM then you must know Benjen isn't Coldhands. Yet it's been a fan hypothesis for a long time and they added it in.

The show has been"dumbed down" over the recent seasons. Go back through the first 4 or so seasons and see how complex plots were and interweave in just one season. Now compare it to season 6 or 7. Either to help the casual audience viewer who doesn't get into this like we do, or D&D  can't write original script well. Either one. 

Missandei in the books is 10. So pretty much everything with her and Greyworm would most likely not happen.. But people have been talking about that romance since they were first introduced in the show.

The biggest one is: GOT has been pandering to women since the Sansa rape scene (and they probably should have since that whole sequence was awfully stupid). Women since then do what they want, when they want with little to no consequences. (there are a multitude of articles online about this, and on these forums)

Last one, because I don't want to make this too long but you can Google and there are tons of them out there and this one isn't confirmed yet but I have to put in one I personally believe. Jon and Dany. People have wanted this relationship FOREVER. And they got it in the show. Now obviously, we have to wait and see what the books do. But if GRRM is planing only two more books, he would have to get Dany to finally sail to Westeros, try to try to take her crown or for some reason head north to Jon. Jon has to become alive and try to recapture the north and somehow have to make Jon KITN and either wait for Dany or head south to her for some reason, fall in love and then hook up. Not saying it's not possible, but for GRRM to do it in two books? I don't know... Considering half of one is going to be Jon being dead most likely, we will see... Now if it happens in the books, then OK, my bad. But if GRRM wants to deconstruct tropes, then having Jon and Dany hook up is a huge trope he would have to break. Then again, Dany and Jon are walking tropes themselves so...

On 8/3/2018 at 9:10 AM, Kajjo said:

I hope they will explain all important threads and leave no cliffhangers. Hopefully they explain this 3-eyed raven stuff, why the Night King acts like he does and have a good solution for breaking the wheel.

I agree with this 100%. I read a rumor that they explain the Night King, and I really hope so. His whole reason of being is obviously one of the biggest question marks and I hope they explain it so it makes sense. 

Same with 3-eyed rave and Bran. If Bran's purpose in the show is to be a walking exposition, I will be pissed. 

Also, with breaking the wheel, you reference it as being the end of a King and Queen in Westeros right? Obviously, if I am wrong please correct me. But when I watched that scene with Dany talking about breaking the wheel to me it meant stopping to have other lords fight over the Iron Throne since she would be the only leader? So I am wondering what is giving you the idea of it meaning the end of power on the land? Just curious.

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6 hours ago, btfu806 said:

The show has been"dumbed down" over the recent seasons. Go back through the first 4 or so seasons and see how complex plots were and interweave in just one season. Now compare it to season 6 or 7.

I agree with you full heartedly. The first seasons were drastically more daring and provocative, more complex, more sexually explicit, more graphically violent, in summary much better. They made GOT so popular and great. The last seasons were a lot more adapted to mainstream. But this does not mean in the first place that the storyline panders to public opinion, but the script and directing got more timid and less bold.

6 hours ago, btfu806 said:

The Hound is most likely done in the books. His arc is as complete as it can get. He came back because the audience wants Cleganebowl, and it's going to happen (that will be another pander).

Might happen, yes. Might be a bit of pandering, I agree. He is an popular and great character and the plot fits. It's fair enough for me. Cleganebowl might happen or Arya might kill the Mountain. I somehow bet on the latter. There are a lot of this "quick as a snake" hints to Arya and Oberyn.

 

6 hours ago, btfu806 said:

GOT has been pandering to women since the Sansa rape scene (and they probably should have since that whole sequence was awfully stupid). Women since then do what they want,

I would really hate it, if this were the case. It might be true to some degree, but GOT had strong women all the time. Catelyn Stark to begin with, Arya in the book from the very beginning on. Cersei from her first action, too. Olenna, too. No, it's a bit unfair to think women changed so drastically. Whether Sansa is intended to mellow and grow more backbone in the books we will see, but it is possible. She is the only character who changed significantly in the show. Daenery certainly is meant the way she is in the book and the show.

 

6 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Jon and Dany.

I don't think so. The Song of Ice and Fire -- and obviously Jon and Daenerys are the central characters for this. And they are certainly aunt and nephew in the books, too. So everything is setup for a however short romantic/erotic intermezzo. I do't mind if the show changed the path to the same end a little bit here, but maybe it even didn't do so.

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16 hours ago, Kajjo said:

I agree with you full heartedly. The first seasons were drastically more daring and provocative, more complex, more sexually explicit, more graphically violent, in summary much better. They made GOT so popular and great. The last seasons were a lot more adapted to mainstream. But this does not mean in the first place that the storyline panders to public opinion, but the script and directing got more timid and less bold.

Might happen, yes. Might be a bit of pandering, I agree. He is an popular and great character and the plot fits. It's fair enough for me. Cleganebowl might happen or Arya might kill the Mountain. I somehow bet on the latter. There are a lot of this "quick as a snake" hints to Arya and Oberyn.

 

I would really hate it, if this were the case. It might be true to some degree, but GOT had strong women all the time. Catelyn Stark to begin with, Arya in the book from the very beginning on. Cersei from her first action, too. Olenna, too. No, it's a bit unfair to think women changed so drastically. Whether Sansa is intended to mellow and grow more backbone in the books we will see, but it is possible. She is the only character who changed significantly in the show. Daenery certainly is meant the way she is in the book and the show.

 

I don't think so. The Song of Ice and Fire -- and obviously Jon and Daenerys are the central characters for this. And they are certainly aunt and nephew in the books, too. So everything is setup for a however short romantic/erotic intermezzo. I do't mind if the show changed the path to the same end a little bit here, but maybe it even didn't do so.

One thing that caught my eye was the bold. 

I have heard this from a few people, Arya killing the mountain. Is it just because of the parallels between Arya and Oberyn (and that he is on her list)? Or are there other references?

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2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

I have heard this from a few people, Arya killing the mountain. Is it just because of the parallels between Arya and Oberyn (and that he is on her list)? Or are there other references?

See here: 

from 2:18 onwards, a lot of "quick as a snake" references in the books.

Personally, I focus on the "Arya reaches Winterfell" (S8) dancing out of the way and "Arya sparring with Brienne" (S8), both showing us quickness and sword fighting ability of Arya. What for, if not for a fight against a much bigger opponent? We were exlicitly shown that she has chances against such opponents. What better "big" opponent than the Mountain? Maybe Arya and the Hound together or after each other attack him? Whatever...

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4 hours ago, Kajjo said:

See here: 

from 2:18 onwards, a lot of "quick as a snake" references in the books.

Personally, I focus on the "Arya reaches Winterfell" (S8) dancing out of the way and "Arya sparring with Brienne" (S8), both showing us quickness and sword fighting ability of Arya. What for, if not for a fight against a much bigger opponent? We were exlicitly shown that she has chances against such opponents. What better "big" opponent than the Mountain? Maybe Arya and the Hound together or after each other attack him? Whatever...

ahh interesting, thank you for this!

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  • 3 months later...

Oh, I'm sure there will be some disappointment. There always is with the show when I compare it to the books because there's no way the show can balance as many characters and subplots as the books do, which makes the world overall richer. And there's always the chance that along the way, a character I root for dies, or has something otherwise horrible happen to them... 

But mostly? I'm excited just to see the culmination of everything the plot has been building toward. I think I'll enjoy it more than I will be disappointed by it. 

It'd be more depressing if we were already done with the books too, and that was "it" for the series as a whole.

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  • 1 month later...
21 hours ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

I feel like I'm going to be disappointed. I highly doubt that D&D are going to go with a bittersweet ending like GRRM has promised for the books. If it is bittersweet, then it will probably be 10% bitter, and 90% sweet.  

The main characters will end up in the same places as GRRM originally planned.  I say the word originally because I am convinced that GRRM has every intention of changing the story, not that we'll ever see his ending.

And you are wrong about D&D, who like the shock effect.  If they did decide to ignore what GRRM told them (and they won't, as they were blown away with the ending he told them) then they're far more likely to go even darker.

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On 12/4/2018 at 3:10 AM, Candor said:

Oh, I'm sure there will be some disappointment. There always is with the show when I compare it to the books because there's no way the show can balance as many characters and subplots as the books do, which makes the world overall richer. And there's always the chance that along the way, a character I root for dies, or has something otherwise horrible happen to them... 

But mostly? I'm excited just to see the culmination of everything the plot has been building toward. I think I'll enjoy it more than I will be disappointed by it. 

It'd be more depressing if we were already done with the books too, and that was "it" for the series as a whole.

Totally agree with all of this.  I first read AGOT in 1998 (ironically I picked it up in a hurry and didn't know it was part of an unfinished trilogy, had I known I wouldn't have bought it!) and I'm just glad to be getting some kind of conclusion to the tale.  Sadly I seriously doubt we'll ever get one in book form.

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On 8/6/2018 at 2:02 PM, btfu806 said:

They do though. They don't want a "Sopranos" type ending. They have arguably one of the greatest TV shows of all time, and if they end up with an ending awful that people hate .... that's not good. 

 

Obviously like you have stated, how they get there will be different. To me (and this is more of a personal thing) the path to get to the "good" or "bad" ending is important. If it doesn't make sense or is silly or w/e else, then it doesn't matter how good the ending is. 

I also have other issues with GRRM saying he is a gardener of story but yet knows where his story is going. If you ever read Stephen King's On Writing he talks about a true gardener approach of he has no idea how it will end, or maybe has an idea but it doesn't usually go that direction. If GRRM is a true gardener then he may have an idea where he likes it to go, doesn't mean it's going to. But then again, maybe that's why these last two books are taking so long? Trying to force it in that direction? IDK.

As far as pandering:

The Hound is most likely done in the books. His arc is as complete as it can get. He came back because the audience wants Cleganebowl, and it's going to happen (that will be another pander).

I would argue the whole magnificent seven getting together and taking a trip to kill WW up north is pandering, people wanted to see that group together for a while just killing stuff. Even if the quest made no sense whatsoever... but I get that if you disagree with that.

If you trust GRRM then you must know Benjen isn't Coldhands. Yet it's been a fan hypothesis for a long time and they added it in.

The show has been"dumbed down" over the recent seasons. Go back through the first 4 or so seasons and see how complex plots were and interweave in just one season. Now compare it to season 6 or 7. Either to help the casual audience viewer who doesn't get into this like we do, or D&D  can't write original script well. Either one. 

Missandei in the books is 10. So pretty much everything with her and Greyworm would most likely not happen.. But people have been talking about that romance since they were first introduced in the show.

The biggest one is: GOT has been pandering to women since the Sansa rape scene (and they probably should have since that whole sequence was awfully stupid). Women since then do what they want, when they want with little to no consequences. (there are a multitude of articles online about this, and on these forums)

Last one, because I don't want to make this too long but you can Google and there are tons of them out there and this one isn't confirmed yet but I have to put in one I personally believe. Jon and Dany. People have wanted this relationship FOREVER. And they got it in the show. Now obviously, we have to wait and see what the books do. But if GRRM is planing only two more books, he would have to get Dany to finally sail to Westeros, try to try to take her crown or for some reason head north to Jon. Jon has to become alive and try to recapture the north and somehow have to make Jon KITN and either wait for Dany or head south to her for some reason, fall in love and then hook up. Not saying it's not possible, but for GRRM to do it in two books? I don't know... Considering half of one is going to be Jon being dead most likely, we will see... Now if it happens in the books, then OK, my bad. But if GRRM wants to deconstruct tropes, then having Jon and Dany hook up is a huge trope he would have to break. Then again, Dany and Jon are walking tropes themselves so...

I agree with this 100%. I read a rumor that they explain the Night King, and I really hope so. His whole reason of being is obviously one of the biggest question marks and I hope they explain it so it makes sense. 

Same with 3-eyed rave and Bran. If Bran's purpose in the show is to be a walking exposition, I will be pissed. 

Also, with breaking the wheel, you reference it as being the end of a King and Queen in Westeros right? Obviously, if I am wrong please correct me. But when I watched that scene with Dany talking about breaking the wheel to me it meant stopping to have other lords fight over the Iron Throne since she would be the only leader? So I am wondering what is giving you the idea of it meaning the end of power on the land? Just curious.

GRRM and gardening - He is a self proclaimed gardener, but he clearly isn't.  Nor is he a detailed planner.  It is this halfway house approach that has got him into major problems.  He basically knows his key events and milestones but the rest he makes up as he goes along.  This means he has lost control of his critical path and the pacing went to shit.  The five year gap, and the subsequent removal of it, combined with so many prophecies and foreshadowing is the proof of this.

Cleganebowl is going to happen.  There is no way we'd have seen the last of the Hound in the books.  It was clearly him in AFFC and Bran's coma dream foreshadowed it way back in AGOT.

The quest won't happen in the books but there may be something similar.  I wouldn't be shocked if what happened to Dany's dragon happens in the books and it is the dragon that brings the Wall down, like the TV show.  If something similar to the quest happens I think it will be because Jon needs to prove to Dany and Tyrion that the Others exist.  So Dany goes ranging above the Wall and loses a Dragon in the process.

Benjen isn't Coldhands and trusting GRRM.  I personally don't trust GRRM! but I also don't think Benjen is Coldhands, but it makes no difference in the show and tidies up the arc nicely.  In the books Benjen should show up as a Wight (if he shows up alive it will be ridiculous) and Coldhands will probably be some ancient hero.  But in terms of the plot it doesn't matter a jot whether Benjen is Coldhands or not.

The show has dumbed down, but that is because they didn't have source material to work from.  I still expect many of the events to be similar to the show though.  Dany taking over the Dothraki will happen.  I had doubts about the Battle of the Bastards but after GRRM's revelation in his notes on a script, I now think that would have happened in the books (which in itself is a massive book spoiler because now I also believe that Ramsey did write the letter and Stannis loses the battle).  I also believe that Tyrion will take Casterly Rock with similar results.

I don't think the show has pandered to women after the Sansa rape (which was so overblown in its outrage it was quite frankly pathetic, had it been Jeyne Poole being raped no one would have given a shit).  Prior to that the show was already being held up as some kind of feminist triumph.  It's one of the reasons it is such a successful show.  It appeals to both genders.

Dany and Jon would have happened in the books.  Jon will become KITN in the books, so why wouldn't Dany want to meet him and get him to bend the knee?  And Dragonstone and dragon glass reference has already been made in the books.

 

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Yes, I expect to be disappointed.  The actors comments on the end almost guarantee that whatever the end is, bittersweet, too bitter or too sweet, it's going to divide the audience.  And yes, I believe the show will have about 95% the same ending as the books which will not be finished anyway, LOL, so of the 10 or so main characters, wolves and dragons, the end will be whatever George gave them.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 1/7/2019 at 10:52 PM, Cas Stark said:

as the books which will not be finished anyway,

Why do you think so? I believe it is evident that the author waits for the show to finish before publishing the books.

Readers of the books will devour the books anyway.

Watchers of the show, however, would not want to know the end before.

Martin has enough time and phantasy as the publication of the two "history book" in the Westeros setting show. He just waits for the show to conclude. 

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