Robb's plan

[Kandrax]

Robb's plan was to lure Tywin into Westerlands to prevent him to help defenders of King's Landing.

It occured to me that he, apparently never considered that his sister could be one of casaulties.

[Dorian Martell's son]

She was in the red keep and would, as a highborn lady not be expected to fight and in a surrender, she would be held as a hostage 

[Stormking902]

12 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

She was in the red keep and would, as a highborn lady not be expected to fight and in a surrender, she would be held as a hostage 

lol what a beautiful world that would be........ Do you know what happens in war? Every lady found in the red keep besides the queen herself would be raped and some murdered even perhaps its a cruel and disgusting world. The only way to prevent this is if a few good knights were first into the room where the ladys of court were held up they might at sword point be able to prevent the sick shits that are in every army and i mean every army from being very cruel. 

[Trigger Warning]

Robb had no idea that Stannis would move against King's Landing so quickly, Stannis being at Storm's End was the only reason Tywin moved at all. If we take it at face value that Robb's plan was to lure Tywin West that still doesn't mean it was for the purpose of allowing King's Landing to fall, no one knew Stannis would take Storm's End so quickly so Robb cannot have factored that into his reasoning for luring Tywin West. 

[Angel Eyes]

31 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

She was in the red keep and would, as a highborn lady not be expected to fight and in a surrender, she would be held as a hostage 

Except that Cersei had no intention of keeping Sansa alive.

[Dorian Martell's son]

29 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

lol what a beautiful world that would be........ Do you know what happens in war? Every lady found in the red keep besides the queen herself would be raped and some murdered even perhaps its a cruel and disgusting world. The only way to prevent this is if a few good knights were first into the room where the ladys of court were held up they might at sword point be able to prevent the sick shits that are in every army and i mean every army from being very cruel. 

Stannis' troops would never enter the keep. After a siege, a surrender would be negotiated, hostages would be taken and ransoms would be paid

[Dorian Martell's son]

16 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Except that Cersei had no intention of keeping Sansa alive.

Possibly

[Trigger Warning]

3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Stannis' troops would never enter the keep. After a siege, a surrender would be negotiated, hostages would be taken and ransoms would be paid

This is something that irks me with a lot of discussions about the Blackwater. The Red Keep is a formidable castle, there's no reason to assume that it wouldn't be able to hold out weeks or months, let alone one night. 

[Stormking902]

7 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

This is something that irks me with a lot of discussions about the Blackwater. The Red Keep is a formidable castle, there's no reason to assume that it wouldn't be able to hold out weeks or months, let alone one night. 

I agree but the whole mission really hinged on capturing the Red Keep itself because Stannis needed the royal children as hostages Asap to keep Tywins army back while he thought of his next plan of attack. Who ever holds the King holds Westeros, so he would sacrifice all of his men if needed if it ment breaching the Keeps walls. Castles usually hold up well because most generals/commanders wont sacrifice thousands of his men in such a fashion as it would weaken his army to much in Stannis case losing thousands of his men would gain him more in the long run. 

[Matthew Marzolf]

2 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

I agree but the whole mission really hinged on capturing the Red Keep itself because Stannis needed the royal children as hostages Asap to keep Tywins army back while he thought of his next plan of attack. Who ever holds the King holds Westeros, so he would sacrifice all of his men if needed if it ment breaching the Keeps walls. Castles usually hold up well because most generals/commanders wont sacrifice thousands of his men in such a fashion as it would weaken his army to much in Stannis case losing thousands of his men would gain him more in the long run. 

I agree. Also, remember that Stannis was "harsh, but just." Whereas others might have played the accept a surrender and ransom off the hostages bit, he saw Cersei as a traitor and her children as abominations born of said treason. I think he WOULD have taken the Red Keep (although in how much time I am unsure) by force and put all 4 to trial and death. Compassion is not one of Stannic's virtue's, even if he's not cruel either.

[Stormking902]

15 minutes ago, Matthew Marzolf said:

I agree. Also, remember that Stannis was "harsh, but just." Whereas others might have played the accept a surrender and ransom off the hostages bit, he saw Cersei as a traitor and her children as abominations born of said treason. I think he WOULD have taken the Red Keep (although in how much time I am unsure) by force and put all 4 to trial and death. Compassion is not one of Stannic's virtue's, even if he's not cruel either.

Cersie, Joffrey, Tommon, Tyrion, maybe Myrcella they are all probably going to be sentenced to death by Stannis I agree completly BUT he would entertain ransoms and such for Cersie and Tommon to gain time but after Stannis has secured the throne there will be NO ransom just heads on walls. Myrcella can be spared perhaps but even thats a tad risky. 

[Trigger Warning]

3 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

I agree but the whole mission really hinged on capturing the Red Keep itself because Stannis needed the royal children as hostages Asap to keep Tywins army back while he thought of his next plan of attack. Who ever holds the King holds Westeros, so he would sacrifice all of his men if needed if it ment breaching the Keeps walls. Castles usually hold up well because most generals/commanders wont sacrifice thousands of his men in such a fashion as it would weaken his army to much in Stannis case losing thousands of his men would gain him more in the long run. 

Those nobles and men at arms aren't just going to just sacrifice themselves though, they have a city to plunder and little love for Stannis. Most men aren't going to throw themselves at a wall  dying by the thousands for the sake of a King's ambition. 

[Stormking902]

1 hour ago, Trigger Warning said:

Those nobles and men at arms aren't just going to just sacrifice themselves though, they have a city to plunder and little love for Stannis. Most men aren't going to throw themselves at a wall  dying by the thousands for the sake of a King's ambition. 

Stannis men do not need to love him to throw themselves against the walls of the Red keep, offer which ever men breach the wall knighthoods and a crack at the royal treasury AND which ever men retreat a swift death. The men will fall in line, also it goes the same way in reverse do Joffreys men want to die for him?? Once the wall is breached do they continue the good fight? Probably not. 

[Loose Bolt]

On the other hand most defenders of KL were not real soldiers, but poorly trained thugs who had very good reasons to hate Lannisters. After all many of goldcloaks had lost their relatives or even had personal experiences what redcloaks did during sacking of KL. Or I am surprised that GC stay loyal and do not decide that "Kings Landing Remember" and rebel against Lannisters.

 The fact that the mother of king has tendency to tread anyone as filthy peasant and new king's hobbies include murdering babies and hunting people with crossbow would not make them very popular either. So it is a miracle that defenses of KL lasted long enough that armies of roses and lions could smash forces of Stannis.

[Chris Mormont]

17 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Robb's plan was to lure Tywin into Westerlands to prevent him to help defenders of King's Landing.

It occured to me that he, apparently never considered that his sister could be one of casaulties.

Robb's plan to lure Tywin to the west was about defeating Tywin, not to prevent him from defending KL.  He wanted to stretch Tywin out, cut his supplies off and make him vulnerable in a battle of Robb's choosing.  The alternative was to march east and attack Tywin while he still could retreat to Harrenhall or KL and be close to his supplies and reinforcements. 

The side benefit was KL would be vulnerable as well. Robb was hoping that Stannis would be an honorable man and spare the noble ladies.

[Trigger Warning]

8 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Stannis men do not need to love him to throw themselves against the walls of the Red keep, offer which ever men breach the wall knighthoods and a crack at the royal treasury AND which ever men retreat a swift death. The men will fall in line, also it goes the same way in reverse do Joffreys men want to die for him?? Once the wall is breached do they continue the good fight? Probably not. 

I'm not denying that it'd fall eventually, I just don't think Stannis being in command will make it happen any sooner than should be expected, but this is ASOIAF and castles rarely do what castles are good at doing so it could go either way. 

[Trigger Warning]

7 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

On the other hand most defenders of KL were not real soldiers, but poorly trained thugs who had very good reasons to hate Lannisters. After all many of goldcloaks had lost their relatives or even had personal experiences what redcloaks did during sacking of KL. Or I am surprised that GC stay loyal and do not decide that "Kings Landing Remember" and rebel against Lannisters.

 The fact that the mother of king has tendency to tread anyone as filthy peasant and new king's hobbies include murdering babies and hunting people with crossbow would not make them very popular either. So it is a miracle that defenses of KL lasted long enough that armies of roses and lions could smash forces of Stannis.

They should have lasted much longer even with raw recruits and let's not forget there's thousands of them, it's a walled city with a river between the main enemy force and the city, the defences of King's Landing are formidable yet the defenders are running away before the walls have even been breached, the enemy fleet is nearly annihilated in one blow and they have to make a crossing under direct arrow and artillery fire with little access to decent siege equipment or siege engines for cover. The Battle of the Blackwater is just a big dumb spectacle battle and that's why it's great but if anything after half the fleet turned into a fireball the attack would probably be halted for days, the panic and defenders running away before even a fraction of Stannis' army has crossed adds to the drama of the narrative but doesn't make much sense from a practical standpoint.

Regarding the people of King's Landing rebelling they probably would but I doubt they'd do it while the enemy is in the process of assaulting the city, some might but the majority would probably want to avoid letting an assaulting army into the city for sack of King's Landing 2 boogaloo. The best time would be to open a gate before the assault is under way, when an army is in the process of assaulting a city once they're inside stopping a sack is near enough impossible. 

[HallowedMarcus]

On 7/10/2018 at 8:37 AM, Matthew Marzolf said:

I agree. Also, remember that Stannis was "harsh, but just." Whereas others might have played the accept a surrender and ransom off the hostages bit, he saw Cersei as a traitor and her children as abominations born of said treason. I think he WOULD have taken the Red Keep (although in how much time I am unsure) by force and put all 4 to trial and death. Compassion is not one of Stannic's virtue's, even if he's not cruel either.

I do concur with thee. Even being just he saw Cersey as a Traitor to his own brother Robert, being her an incestuous adulterer. Her children were abominations born from brother and sister. He would have killed them for sure.

[The hairy bear]

It is precisely Stannis' reputation what should give us certain warranties that Sansa wouldn't be harmed.

Every soldier in his army is aware that Stannis cut the fingers of the man who had just saved his live and his keep just for being a smuggler. What he would do to anyone who dared to rape a fourteen year old noble girl would not be pretty.

Is it possible that, seeing everything lost, Cersei ordered Sansa's execution? It could happen, I guess, but we can't blame Robb for not foreseeing Cersei's madness. And even if Cersei really went to such extremes, it's far from sure that people would have carried on her orders (for instance, Ilyn Payne may think that instead of beheading Sansa, it would be a better idea to disobey and try to deliver her to Stannis in exchange for his own life).

[Bernie Mac]

25 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

It is precisely Stannis' reputation what should give us certain warranties that Sansa wouldn't be harmed.

Cat Stark has a better understanding of Stannis' reputation better than anyone on this forum. 

"If your children are found when I take the city, they shall be sent to you." Alive or dead, his tone implied.

Look at her reaction when she hears that Stannis has left Storm's End and is marching for King's Landing, she panics and releases Jaime in the hope that he will get there in time and have her daughters released by the Imp.