If Aegon is fake, does Jon Con know?

[zandru]

39 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If fAegon really was Rhaegar's son, then there was no need for waiting. The only reason, that I can think of, why Varys waited for those 5 years, before he presented fAegon to JonCon, is that Varys and his team (including Myles) were subtly influencing JonCon from the shadows, and molding him into what they wanted him to become - their oblivious pawn.

Well, I'm with you on getting Jon Connington into a better state of mind first. But they'd definitely have held back young Aegon ("Aegon"?) for five years or so because what use would a broken, exiled man on the run have with a screaming infant? Sounds like a recipe for disaster. By age 5, children are more like "people": they understand words, can differentiate between themselves and the environment, are learning to defer their wishes, are inclined to bond with parental figures, etc. In short, a good age to begin training to become a future king.

A question I would have is - does "Young Griff" have any recollections of his early years, when he was with someone else? (If not Lenore?) Recall how Daenerys is plagued by wistful recollections of Willem Darry and the house with the red door.

[bent branch]

9 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

 

I find it interesting that in those quotes he thinks of Prince Aegon as a Targ and a prince, but he thinks of Jon Connington still as Griff.

Exactly. If GRRM wanted to leave open the possibility that Tyrion doubted Aegon's legitimacy while at the same time disguising the fact Aegon was some type of fake, he could have simply use equivocal language, like continuing to call Aegon Young Griff. Instead GRRM chose to have Tyrion think of Aegon as prince and a second Targaryen. I think it is clear this is what GRRM wants Tyrion to think about Aegon. It seems that GRRM wants to make Tyrion a advocate of Aegon, whether he is real or fake.

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If not for those quote, I wouldn't even wonder about the question. But if you set aside judgement for a moment, then consider, for hypothetical purposes, a future in which Aegon is revealed to be a Blackfyre, and Tyron expressing some notion of having known all along, would those two quotes be entirely inconsistent? Or, do those two quotes leave some wiggle room for the author? 

To play devil's advocate, Aegon claims to be a prince, and Tyrion knows that is how Aegon will be introduced to the world, so, whatever his paternity, that's how Tyrion thanks of the noblest lad that ever lived. Similarly, Aegon claims to be a Targaryen, and Tyrion knows that is how Aegon will be introduced to the world, so again, that is how Tyrion thinks of the boy. 

Most importantly, it should be noted that in both quotes, Tyrion is considering how the red priests will react when they learn of Aegon. Presumably, when the red priests learn of Aegon, they will be told, and perhaps assume, that he is the son of Rhaegar. 

Finally, if Aegon is a Blackfyre, or even a pisswater prince, the author us clearly not ready to reveal it, so he can't allow Tyrion to refer to Aegon as an imposter in his POV. 

Your interpretation of the quotes does seems to be facially correct, but given the context of the possible subplot here, I am going to remain skeptical. That is why I only wonder whether Tyrion knows, and why i think it's a very interesting question. 

 

8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I explained why I think the author has left himself some wiggle room. I don't really have anything to add to that. As I said, your interpretation appears to facially correct. It could certainly play out that Tyrion will not say, "Oh, I knew it all along," but rather admit, "Wow, the cheesmonger fooled me." I ask myself quite often why I need so badly to consider any of this fiction, and I don't really know why I am obsessed to come here and discuss it, but for whatever reason I do. I enjoy the thoughtful exchange of these ideas, especially with commenters like yourself who see things differently then I do. 

I was going to apologize for my post, but after re-reading it I don't see anything to apologize for.

Actually, your post didn't spell out how the author left himself some wiggle room. Look at my response to Valyrian Lance to see what wiggle room would look like. It is not important why Tyrion has those thoughts at that point. What is important is HOW TYRION THINKS OF AEGON. Tyrion could have had those thoughts thinking something like, "I wonder what the red priests would make of Young Griff?" Those type of thoughts would have left the author with wiggle room. Instead, inside of Tyrion's own head Tyrion thinks of Aegon as a prince and a second Targaryen. If you can't see the difference here then I would suggest you try putting aside your judgement. 

And I will ask you my question again and I will try to make it simpler. Why do you feel it is so important for Tyrion to believe Aegon to be a fake when Tyrion's opinion doesn't fundamentally change anything? After all, Tyrion is not in a position to know the truth, he has only his opinion to go on.

[Lost Melnibonean]

32 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Exactly. If GRRM wanted to leave open the possibility that Tyrion doubted Aegon's legitimacy while at the same time disguising the fact Aegon was some type of fake, he could have simply use equivocal language, like continuing to call Aegon Young Griff. Instead GRRM chose to have Tyrion think of Aegon as prince and a second Targaryen. I think it is clear this is what GRRM wants Tyrion to think about Aegon. It seems that GRRM wants to make Tyrion a advocate of Aegon, whether he is real or fake.

 

I was going to apologize for my post, but after re-reading it I don't see anything to apologize for.

Actually, your post didn't spell out how the author left himself some wiggle room. Look at my response to Valyrian Lance to see what wiggle room would look like. It is not important why Tyrion has those thoughts at that point. What is important is HOW TYRION THINKS OF AEGON. Tyrion could have had those thoughts thinking something like, "I wonder what the red priests would make of Young Griff?" Those type of thoughts would have left the author with wiggle room. Instead, inside of Tyrion's own head Tyrion thinks of Aegon as a prince and a second Targaryen. If you can't see the difference here then I would suggest you try putting aside your judgement. 

And I will ask you my question again and I will try to make it simpler. Why do you feel it is so important for Tyrion to believe Aegon to be a fake when Tyrion's opinion doesn't fundamentally change anything? After all, Tyrion is not in a position to know the truth, he has only his opinion to go on.

If you occasionally feel like you might want to apologize for a post in this forum, maybe you're taking this forum a little too seriously?  

As to the passages you quoted, the wiggle room, and how boxed in the author is as to what Tyrion believes or might suspect, or at least wonder about, at this point in the story, I thought @Bael's Bastard made a strong point upthread...

As to your question, I don't feel it is so important. If it turns out that Tyrion never suspected a thing, so be it. I am skeptical, but I doubt it really matters all that much for the Blackfyre subplot (assuming there is a Blackfyre subplot), or the second dance of the dragons, or ASOIAF as a whole. 

[bent branch]

9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If you occasionally feel like you might want to apologize for a post in this forum, maybe you're taking this forum a little too seriously?  

As to the passages you quoted, the wiggle room, and how boxed in the author is as to what Tyrion believes or might suspect, or at least wonder about, at this point in the story, I thought @Bael's Bastard made a strong point upthread...

As to your question, I don't feel it is so important. If it turns out that Tyrion never suspected a thing, so be it. I am skeptical, but I doubt it really matters all that much for the Blackfyre subplot (assuming there is a Blackfyre subplot), or the second dance of the dragons, or ASOIAF as a whole. 

Bael's Bastard made exactly the same pointless point you did. Anyhow, for some inexplicable reason it is important to you that Tyrion thinks Aegon is fake. I will respect that.

[Lost Melnibonean]

11 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Bael's Bastard made exactly the same pointless point you did. Anyhow, for some inexplicable reason it is important to you that Tyrion thinks Aegon is fake. I will respect that.

Respect for one another is always a good thing, especially when it is genuine. 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

A question I would have is - does "Young Griff" have any recollections of his early years, when he was with someone else? (If not Lenore?) Recall how Daenerys is plagued by wistful recollections of Willem Darry and the house with the red door.

Even if fAegon does remember something, from before he was given to JonCon, it's unlikely, that he, as a 5 y.o. (or even younger) child, would have had access, or even understanding, of any compromising information, that could have revealed him as one of Blackfyres, and not a Targaryen prince.

What I mean, is that, if fAegon from his birth, and until he was 5, was living with Illyrio, it doesn't mean, that he was aware of who he is. Little children don't think about things like heritage, pedigree, inheritance, etc.

Also it's possible, that even if he is a fake, nevertheless Aegon could be his real name. And he was living in Illyrio's mansion, because they are bloodrelated, or something like that.

I have a theory about fAegon's possible identity (it's very convoluted and heavily fan-fictioned):

Spoiler

1. fAegon is son of Septa Lemore and Barristan Selmy.
2. Lemore is Lady Jayne Swann.
3. Barristan's mother is daughter of Aenys Blackfyre. Thus Barristan has "dragon" blood.
4. Barristan has saved Lady Jayne from Kingswood Brotherhood, and killed their leader, Simon Toyne. I think, that Simon was brother of Myles Toyne, and same as Myles, he was member of Golden Company, and both of them were working for Varys.
5. The whole attack on Jayne, was staged by Blackfyres, for Barristan to save her.
6. Septa, that accompanied Jayne, was Shiera Seastar, in shadow glamour.
7. In one of Dunk & Egg novels, Aegon said, that Lady Shiera is dancing with demons, and that she bathes in blood, i.e. she's a shadowbinder, and user of blood magic. In other novel he also said, that his sister, Rhae, tried to give him love potion, to make him to marry with her. I think, that that love potion (that Rhae gave to Aegon) was prepared by Shiera.
8. When Barristan saved Jayne, Shiera/septa gave him love potion, and Jeyne seduced him, and was impregnated.
9. It happened on the same night, when was conceived Elia's Aegon. That night, there was seen a comet, above King's Landing. Based on this sign, Rhaegar decided, that Aegon is the promised Prince. Kingswood is located in the same area, as King's Landing. So that comet was also seen above place, where Jayne and Barristan has conceived fAegon.
10. I think, that in private archive of Targaryens, was kept book of prophecies, written by Daenys the Dreamer. Its title is Book of signs and portents, or something like that (maester Marwyn has read three pages out of that book). Probably it was after reading this book, that Rhaegar decided, that he should become a knight. And later, also because of this book, he thought, that his Aegon is the promised Prince.
11. According to the prophecy about Azor Ahai, he will be born/appear under bleeding stars. So Rhaegar thought, that the comet of 280/281 was the Sign. While actually the real Sign was The Bleeding Star comet of 298/299, under which - 1. was born Rhaego, 2. hatched Dany's dragons, 3. Jon killed the boy in him, and became a man (also he was conceived at Starfall, place where thousands years prior that, fell meteorite, from which was forged Dawn sword of Daynes, Lightbringer of Azor Ahai) <- three heads of the dragon were born/reborn anew (the Stallion that will mount the world, the promised Princess, and Azor Ahai).
12. Rhaegar wasn't the only person, that has read that book, and made his assumptions, based on it. Prior him, the same mistake was made by Shiera Seastar. 
13. Jenny's witch, the Ghost of High Heart, has predicted to Targaryens, that the promised Prince will be descendant from the line of Jaehaerys II (his great grandson Rhaego, the Bleeding Star appeared after his birth). Could be, that Shiera for some reason thought, that the promised Prince will be born from the line of Aenys Blackfyre (his great grandson fAegon, the comet was seen above King's Landing, 9 months prior his birth).
14. Prior death of Maekar I, Shiera Seastar went to Essos, to support her nephew Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven wanted to get her back, thus he convinced Aenys to come to Westeros, and participate in Great Council of 233. When Aenys and his family arrived to 7K, Bloodraven executed Aenys, while his family was left at Selmy's castle, Harvest Hall. House Selmy are marcher lords, and marcher lords always were supporters of Blackfyres (they even killed Maekar I). Thus Aenys left his family, with people, to whom he could trust, prior he went to King's Landing. Then Aenys' daughter fell in love with one of Selmys, and later their son Barristan was born.
15. Bittersteel arrived to Westeros, with Fourth Rebelllion of Blackfyres, because he wanted to retrieve Aenys' family, and get them back to Essos. Aenys' daughter went to Essos, though she left Barristan with his father. Probably later she remarried, and had other children, and one of them was the last Daemon Blackfyre - the one, that was killed by his Blackfyre cousin, Maelys the Monstrous.
16. Barristan is aware, that he is a Blackfyre. Him, killing Maelys, was revenge for murder of his half-brother, Daemon. Probably Daemon's father was Aenys' younger brother (sixth son of Daemon I Blackfyre), and uncle of Barristan's mother. While Maelys' father was seventh son of Daemon I Blackfyre.
17. Same as Rhaegar, Shiera thought, that the child, that will be conceived under falling star/comet/bleeding star will be the promised Prince. So she decided to use her knowledge, and alter fate in her favour. She made an agreement with Varys, gained assistance from Golden Company, and together with Simon Toyne, has staged attack on Jeyne Swann, and arranged it that way, that she will be saved by Barristan, who was a carrier of Aenys' genes.
18. Jeyne Swann/Septa Lemore was also chosen because of her bloodline. Though, unlike Barristan, she willingly took part in Shiera's games of thrones. Current Targaryens, Blackfyres, and descendants of Bittersteel, are all genetically partially Swanns.
19. I think, that Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, member of the Triarchy, and ruler of Lys in all but name, was wife of Lysandro the Magnificent Rogare, and mother of Larra Rogare (wife of Viserys II Targaryen, mother of Aegon IV, and grandmother of Daeron II Targaryen, Daemon I Blackfyre, Aegor Bittersteel Rivers, Brynden Bloodraven Rivers, and Shiera Seastar).
20. Larra Rogare married with Viserys Targaryen, and gave birth to three of his children - son (Aegon IV), daughter (Aegon's sister-wife Naerys), son (Aemon). And then she left Westeros, and returned to Lys, where later she supposedly died, aged 30, from unknown causes. I think, that, when she was returning to Lys, she was pregnant. So later she gave birth to one more child - her second daughter. She gave birth to a boy, then a girl, then a boy again, so could be, that her next child was a girl.
21. This girl later married with Archon of Tyrosh, and their child was Rohanne of Tyrosh, future wife of Daemon I Blackfyre, and mother of his 9 children.
22. I think, that Larra Rogare didn't died in 145, aged 30. I think, she died in 184, aged 69, when she gave birth to her last child - Shiera Seastar. Last mistress of Aegon IV, Serenei of Lys, was Aegon's mother, Larra Rogare. So Shiera is fruit of incest between mother and son.
23. Shiera's maternal and paternal grandmother was Swann. (Shiera Seastar - Serenei of Lys/Larra Rogare - Johanna Swann; Aegon IV - Larra Rogare - Johanna Swann.) So Shiera has chosen Jayne Swann, as vessel for the promised Prince, because she and Jayne shared genes of House Swann. And because Swanns are Blackfyre loyalists.
24. Now, how did Varys got himself into that mix? - I think, that Rohanne Webber-Lannister, the Red Widow, and ancestor of current Lannisters, after she mysteriously disappeared, gave birth to a daughter - Jenny of Oldstones, future wife of Crown prince Duncan Targaryen. Then Rohanne became the woods witch, that gave to Targaryens the prophecy about the promised Prince. On the contrary of what Dunk thought about her, she really was a witch. During burning of Summerhall, that was caused by Blackfyres and Brackens, Blackfyres has kidnapped Lady Jenny, and at least one dragon egg, that belonged to Targaryens (black and red, from Whitewalls - Drogon's, probably belonged to Duncan the Small). Varys and Serra are children of Lady Jenny of Oldstones, and son (or grandson) of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre. Thus Varys is a Blackfyre from female line. And he is quarter-Webber, and grandson of the Red Widow, that's why he is a Spider. Also he is quarter Lannister. And partially Swann, thru his Blackfyre ancestors. So Lady Jeyne Swann/Septa Lemore is Varys' relative thru Swann blood. And Barristan Selmy is Varys' relative thru Blackfyre blood. So fAegon and Varys share lots of common genes, even though they are not father and son. And because Varys' sister, Illyrio's wife Serra, died childless, and Varys can't have children, thus fAegon is the closest alternative, that he can have. So that's why he is supporting fAegon.
25. Last out of three treasons, predicted to Dany by the Undying, the one for love - probably Barristan Selmy will betray Dany, when he will find out, that fAegon is his son, so he will support him, and not Dany.

Probably I'm wrong about all of that, though I like this theory, so I'll stick with it, at least until Fire & Blood's publication. GRRM said, that Volume I covers history of House Targaryen up until Aegon III. So then we will probably get more information about, who was mother of Larra Rogare, how did Larra died, and who was Serenei. Until then I'll have fun writing fan-fiction about Blackfyres

[FictionIsntReal]

On 7/11/2018 at 1:16 PM, Widow's Watch said:

No, Rhaegar did no such thing. Ned is the one who gave Jon his name. There's a GRRM SSM that confirms that Ned is the one who named Jon, likely for Jon Arryn. Ned named the boys after the important men in his life. Robb for Bobby B, Jon for Jon Arryn, Bran for Brandon and Rickon for Rickard.

Indeed, it's here:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1202/

Rhaegar would not have named any children after Connington. He didn't care nearly as much about Jon as Connington did about him.

As for people doubting Aegon's parentage, we have the Small Council denouncing him as a pretender (although Kevan isn't sure), and Daemon Sand also being doubtful.

[Pikachu101]

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

As for people doubting Aegon's parentage, we have the Small Council denouncing him as a pretender 

They have good reason t denounce him just like Connington and Dorne have good reason to believe him, it honestly comes down to whether or not he can win the war. 

[BlackLightning]

15 hours ago, zandru said:

How will Arianne find out? Who's going to tell her? "Young Griff" wouldn't know who his true parents are, just what he's been told. Jon Conn, per his own thoughts, believes him to be Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar and Elia. If Arianne runs into Varys, why would he spring the information on her and destroy his own many-years-in-the-making plans? What have I missed?

Arianne is not JonCon.

As we already know, Arianne is not the type to let sleeping dogs lie. She's a clever, tenacious girl who also has a talent for making mountains out of molehills. Meaning she takes circumstantial evidence (or mere suspicions) and runs with them as if they are absolute concrete evidence and proven fact. We saw that with how she reacted to the whole "Quentyn is going to be the future ruling Prince of Dorne" plot. Arianne has grown since then but she still seems to conflate Viserys' death with Daenerys' lack of moral integrity.

So, what she could do is accidentally discover the truth because she just won't let it go something she heard/saw/felt/read.

Now, whether she becomes a whistleblower or if she decides to keep it a secret … that's still up in the air.

Arianne, like Ned Stark, has also been established as not your average Westerosi noble. Arianne is Dornish; unlike other women of her station, she's not going to be cooped up in the Red Keep or Maegor's Holdfast. She's the closest thing we have to a 20th century activist for feminism (first & second wave) in this series. She's going to be out and about doing stuff - namely making the network of noblemen that she wished she had in "The Princess in the Tower" chapter.

She's like what Sansa would have been if Sansa:

• if Sansa kept on her queenly path and allowed to mature normally
• if Sansa wasn't so sheltered 

So, in other words, I don't know how Arianne will find out but it won't be from Aegon or JonCon. And it most likely won't happen in Winds.

[zandru]

3 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I doubt he is either fake or real. Their isn’t enough information to make a accurate guess. 

How did that realist get in here?

;-) by the way...