Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

goldenlion

cersei and tywin

Recommended Posts

Quote

Robert should have scoured the isles after Balon Greyjoy rose against him, Cersei thought. He smashed their fleet, burned their towns, and broke their castles, but when he had them on their knees he let them up again. He should have made another island of their skulls. That was what her father would have done, but Robert never had the stomach that a king requires if he hopes to keep peace in the realm (feast for crows chapter 32)

in contrast to tywins statement which he made in front of her when joffrey wanted all of the riverland lords put to the sword

Quote

"Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." – Tywin Lannister

A Storm of Swords, Chapter 53, Tyrion VI.


and shortly afterwards when tywin asked who told him the strong king must act boldly line that it was cerseis words not roberts and she was trying to shift it to robert to avoid tywins anger. and she even sounded like a a child trying to redirect a parents anger by her first response being it wasnt me and then saying it most likely it was something he heard robert say it wasnt until tyrion brought up the hiding under casterly rock big sounding like robert that she claimed robert often told joffrey that when she previously stated that robert was hardly if ever there for joff

Quote

"There is a long league's worth of difference between willful and stupid. ‘A strong king acts boldly?' Who told him that?" "Not me, I promise you," said Cersei. "Most like it was something he heard Robert say . . . " "The part about you hiding under Casterly Rock does sound like Robert." Tyrion didn't want Lord Tywin forgetting that bit. "Yes, I recall now," Cersei said, "Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold."

what are your thoughts on how cerseis thoughts in affc chapter 32  criticizing robert for how he handled the ironborn helping them up from their knees and how it contrasts with what tywin himself said to joffrey

Cersei does this a lot

In ASOS tywin tells cersei and tyrion this

Quote

"I have considered the Redwyne twins, Theon Greyjoy, Quentyn Martell, and a number of others. But our alliance with Highgarden was the sword that broke Stannis. It should be tempered and made stronger. Ser Loras has taken the white and Ser Garlan is wed to one of the Fossoways, but there remains the eldest son, the boy they scheme to wed to Sansa Stark."

Then after tywin dies cersei does everything she can to destroy the alliance with the tyrells

Plus in AFFC this happens

Quote

"My uncle Garth has agreed to serve as master of coin, as your lord father wished. He is making his way to Oldtown to take ship. His sons will accompany him. Lord Tywin mentioned something about finding places for the two of them as well. Perhaps in the City Watch." The queen's smile had frozen so hard she feared her teeth might crack. Garth the Gross on the small council and his two bastards in the gold cloaks . . . do the Tyrells think I will just serve the realm up to them on a gilded platter? The arrogance of it took her breath away.

Cercei seems to completely miss the part about how this was tywin's work and immediately proceeds to undo what tywin was working on without even thinking why he might have been doing it.

All her chapters are basically her thinking about how she is like tywin then doing the exact opposite of what he would have done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't quote me on this, but when Tywin attacked Castamere, Lord Reyne attempted to parley. Tywin refused. It could be that he was simply young and brash at the time, but I'm inclined to think that he isn't the sort of person who can follow his own advice. I can see him torching the an island or two, and then letting the rest live once he regains his composure.

It hadn't occurred to me that Cersei could be lying when she it was Robert who told him. At the time, I had thought it a bit odd, since Robert gave nary a shit about teaching his 'son' anything. It does, however, sound like something Cersei would tell him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think, that when Tywin became older, he became more lenient and forgiving, less cruel, than he was in his youth. But Cersei still had about him that opinion/vision, of what kind of person he was before. He became softer with age, while Cersei, on the contrary, became more cruel and vicious. She tried to be like Tywin. So in the end, she became more Tywin-like, than Tywin himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

Don't quote me on this, but when Tywin attacked Castamere, Lord Reyne attempted to parley. Tywin refused.

No, not exactly. If you read the History of the Westerlands the Reynes and Tarbecks chose rebellion rather than come to court and answer their crimes, there were various opportunities they had to negotiate but instead chose to fight. It was only after Lord Reyne had been beaten in the field did they retreat back to Castamere and only when they had no other alternative did they choose to negotiate

Once all his folk were safe inside the tunnels, Ser Reynard sent word to Ser Tywin above, offering terms.  “You cannot fight your way in, and we have food and water sufficient for three years,” he wrote, “but grant us full pardon for any past offenses, and send your brothers down to us as hostages against deceit, and we shall once again be your true and leal servants.”

Tywin was not going to use his brothers as hostages to a faction that had already been beaten in the field and had proven treacherous in the past (it was the Reynes who ambushed and killed his grandfather) nor was he willing to send his own men to die trying to take Castamere. The Reynes had a chance to negotiate peace and they overplayed their hand. 

It should be noted that it was Tywin, after beating Lord Tarbeck in the field, who offered terms to Tarbeck Hall. 

At their approach, Lady Ellyn Tarbeck closed her gates and sent forth ravens to Castamere, summoning her brothers.  When Ser Kevan Lannister approached under a peace banner to demand her surrender, she laughed at him, and said, “You are not the only lions in the west, ser.  My brothers are coming, and their claws are just as long and sharp as yours.”

Tywin had shown he was more than willing to parley, but he is also not going to give into unrealistic demands from a vanquished enemy who had already been beaten. 

 

35 minutes ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

It could be that he was simply young and brash at the time, but I'm inclined to think that he isn't the sort of person who can follow his own advice. I can see him torching the an island or two, and then letting the rest live once he regains his composure.

I'm not sure that is even possible. if it didn't happen in the era of the 'bad blood' between the Lannisters and Greyjoys when the Ironborn mutilated Leila Lannister's lips, ears, eyelids, and tongue and starting a long and bloody war that would take generations for the Ironborn to recover then I'm not sure it could have happened after the Grreyjoy rebellion. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

Don't quote me on this, but when Tywin attacked Castamere, Lord Reyne attempted to parley. Tywin refused. It could be that he was simply young and brash at the time, but I'm inclined to think that he isn't the sort of person who can follow his own advice. I can see him torching the an island or two, and then letting the rest live once he regains his composure.

It hadn't occurred to me that Cersei could be lying when she it was Robert who told him. At the time, I had thought it a bit odd, since Robert gave nary a shit about teaching his 'son' anything. It does, however, sound like something Cersei would tell him.

I don't think Cersei is particularly reliable with telling the truth, especially when she wants to shift the blame away from herself, but:

a. Robert is never shown to be too careful or consistent with his opinions either, especially when drunk.

b. Tywin is a huge hypocrite. I wouldn't put past him telling Joffrey one thing and himself doing something completely different (just like with Tyrion and prostitutes). And as for the Greyjoys, they remained to be a threat indeed, so it's possible that Tywin could've predicted it when Robert didn't, and kick then down some more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

 

b. Tywin is a huge hypocrite. I wouldn't put past him telling Joffrey one thing and himself doing something completely different (just like with Tyrion and prostitutes). 

Tywin's issue with Tyrion and prostitutes was that he knew his son to well and that spending enough time he was paying to love him he would develop feelings for them to the detriment of his own family. He was obviously right

"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?"

 Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."

 "To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"

 

It is only hypocritical if Tywin in turn would start jeopardizing  the safety of his House over his feelings over a whore. If

I tell an alcoholic not to drink but then have a drink myself that is not being hypocritical, we are not all built the same and Tywin, and seemingly the majority of other noble men, were able to use prostitutes/paramours without acting stupidly; Tywin's father and son being the notable exceptions

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin's issue with Tyrion and prostitutes was that he knew his son to well and that spending enough time he was paying to love him he would develop feelings for them to the detriment of his own family.

He knew that on what basis? Tysha wasn't an example and there's no mention in Tyrion's backstory of his whoring really causing anyone any trouble (contrary to Robert, for example). Tywin is known to have bullying Tyrion based on almost whatever Tyrion wanted to do, even wanting to travel.

But sure, we can go with the 'bitching that his son won't marry and give heirs, even though he's been a Kingsguard for 15+ years and Tywin himself had over two decades to remarry and make more heirs" example instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't really think there's much of a contrast between those quotes. Balon Greyjoy didn't surrender, he lost his war. Robert's armies broke down Balon's walls, and took his castle. Tywin's point is that if you prove that you're willing to accept someone's surrender, future opponents won't fight to the end, the way Balon did.

I suspect that, if it were Tywin's war, he'd have executed Balon, removed the Greyjoys from Pyke, and then he'd have accepted the surrender and renewed oaths of fealty from the Lords who followed Balon is his foolish rebellion, so as to put an end to the fighting.

You can be damned sure that if Robb Stark had lost his war by having a Lannister army take Winterfell from him as he was hiding within, he'd never have been free to rule Winterfell after. Balon got off way too easy. The only punishment was Theon being taken, really. His other two sons died in the fighting, so they weren't chastisement. He was allowed to keep his seat, his lands, his bannermen. He was essentially as well off as he was before his rebellion, but with fewer children and more spite. I'm sure it came as a shock to absolutely nobody when he resumed his war at the first possible opportunity. Robert was a fool (though that's not surprising, either).

I'd say that Cersei was perfectly accurate in her assessment of Tywin, there, and I wouldn't say it contradicts anything Tywin has said.

As for Cersei shifting the blame to Robert about the bold king remarks, I'm sure she's lying about Robert "often" saying that, but I don't think she's lying when she claims it wasn't her that said it. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk" is what Joffrey actually says, and that sounds a lot more like something Robert would say than something Cersei would say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect Tywin wasn't so much hypocritical as tailoring his response to the person he was speaking to. He'd already seen what a hot-headed, vicious, blood-thirsty POS Joffrey was. Why seem to encourage this tendency? Now, Tywin might have told a young Tommen that a king "acts boldly", because he'd know that Tommen wasn't going to interpret this as carte blanche to go out and commit mass slaughter, as Mad King Joffrey would.

That Cersei lied about Robert should be no surprise. The woman has a tenuous connection to reality and always tailors her memories and suspicions to favor herself and hurt her "enemies" (well, that would be pretty much everyone else.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

He knew that on what basis? Tysha wasn't an example

Tysha is an example, she was a homeless peasant who Tyrion knew for a week and Tyrion then married.  I somehow doubt Shae is the only whore Tyrion had became attached to

Tywin knew exactly what his son's weakness would be and was proven correct.

 

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

 

Tywin is known to have bullying Tyrion based on almost whatever Tyrion wanted to do, even wanting to travel.

Tyrion travels around all of Westeros, he is a regular gambler at tourney's and the first time we see him is him travelling with his father's money and servants. 

Tywin told him he would not fund his trip to Essos, the place Gerion got lost/killed in. Tyrion's a dwarf and the Lannister name is not feared there. He would have been a walking target. 

How exactly was he bullied? Tyrion has a the life of a playboy when we meet him, most nobles offer their families some kind of useful role for living like the 0.1% of Westeros. 

1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

But sure, we can go with the 'bitching that his son won't marry and give heirs, even though he's been a Kingsguard for 15+ years and Tywin himself had over two decades to remarry and make more heirs" example instead.

Why would Tywin need to make more heirs, there are many, many living Lannisters. Unfortunately they all come behind Tyrion, only Jaime, as his oldest son, is above him. 

 

How exactly is Tywin a hypocrite for not remarrying? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I don't really think there's much of a contrast between those quotes. Balon Greyjoy didn't surrender, he lost his war. Robert's armies broke down Balon's walls, and took his castle. Tywin's point is that if you prove that you're willing to accept someone's surrender, future opponents won't fight to the end, the way Balon did.

I suspect that, if it were Tywin's war, he'd have executed Balon, removed the Greyjoys from Pyke, and then he'd have accepted the surrender and renewed oaths of fealty from the Lords who followed Balon is his foolish rebellion, so as to put an end to the fighting.

You can be damned sure that if Robb Stark had lost his war by having a Lannister army take Winterfell from him as he was hiding within, he'd never have been free to rule Winterfell after. Balon got off way too easy. The only punishment was Theon being taken, really. His other two sons died in the fighting, so they weren't chastisement. He was allowed to keep his seat, his lands, his bannermen. He was essentially as well off as he was before his rebellion, but with fewer children and more spite. I'm sure it came as a shock to absolutely nobody when he resumed his war at the first possible opportunity. Robert was a fool (though that's not surprising, either).

I'd say that Cersei was perfectly accurate in her assessment of Tywin, there, and I wouldn't say it contradicts anything Tywin has said.

As for Cersei shifting the blame to Robert about the bold king remarks, I'm sure she's lying about Robert "often" saying that, but I don't think she's lying when she claims it wasn't her that said it. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk" is what Joffrey actually says, and that sounds a lot more like something Robert would say than something Cersei would say.

Robert pardoning the Greyjoys wasn't foolish. That's what almost everyone would do. They also took a hostage to ensure that he wouldn't rise against them again. Also, that doesn't sound like something he would say and it doesn't fit his actions as King.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tianzi said:

He knew that on what basis? Tysha wasn't an example and there's no mention in Tyrion's backstory of his whoring really causing anyone any trouble

Well, Tyrion's frequenting of prostitutes appears to have been a well-known thing. Tysha is not relevant, as you mentioned, but Shae is, and it's either implied or stated outright that she's by no means his first. Everywhere Tyrion goes, he's got to "bed down" compulsively, and in between, he's always preoccupied with his cock.

What this has to do with Tywin's words to Joffrey v Tywin's own actions, I've lost track. But, in passing, I note that parents (and grandparents) don't always advise their children to do things exactly the same way as they did, back in the day. Also, Tywin was talking to Mad Joffrey, who enjoyed nothing more than making men fight to their deaths and watching torture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, zandru said:

I suspect Tywin wasn't so much hypocritical as tailoring his response to the person he was speaking to. He'd already seen what a hot-headed, vicious, blood-thirsty POS Joffrey was. Why seem to encourage this tendency? Now, Tywin might have told a young Tommen that a king "acts boldly", because he'd know that Tommen wasn't going to interpret this as carte blanche to go out and commit mass slaughter, as Mad King Joffrey would.

That Cersei lied about Robert should be no surprise. The woman has a tenuous connection to reality and always tailors her memories and suspicions to favor herself and hurt her "enemies" (well, that would be pretty much everyone else.)

+1 on all this

But in Feast Cersei is pretty far down the bottle so it's not a very impressive self-delusion imo. I think there is more like this strewn about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, not exactly. If you read the History of the Westerlands the Reynes and Tarbecks chose rebellion rather than come to court and answer their crimes, there were various opportunities they had to negotiate but instead chose to fight. It was only after Lord Reyne had been beaten in the field did they retreat back to Castamere and only when they had no other alternative did they choose to negotiate

Once all his folk were safe inside the tunnels, Ser Reynard sent word to Ser Tywin above, offering terms.  “You cannot fight your way in, and we have food and water sufficient for three years,” he wrote, “but grant us full pardon for any past offenses, and send your brothers down to us as hostages against deceit, and we shall once again be your true and leal servants.”

Tywin was not going to use his brothers as hostages to a faction that had already been beaten in the field and had proven treacherous in the past (it was the Reynes who ambushed and killed his grandfather) nor was he willing to send his own men to die trying to take Castamere. The Reynes had a chance to negotiate peace and they overplayed their hand. 

It should be noted that it was Tywin, after beating Lord Tarbeck in the field, who offered terms to Tarbeck Hall. 

At their approach, Lady Ellyn Tarbeck closed her gates and sent forth ravens to Castamere, summoning her brothers.  When Ser Kevan Lannister approached under a peace banner to demand her surrender, she laughed at him, and said, “You are not the only lions in the west, ser.  My brothers are coming, and their claws are just as long and sharp as yours.”

Tywin had shown he was more than willing to parley, but he is also not going to give into unrealistic demands from a vanquished enemy who had already been beaten. 

 

I'm not sure that is even possible. if it didn't happen in the era of the 'bad blood' between the Lannisters and Greyjoys when the Ironborn mutilated Leila Lannister's lips, ears, eyelids, and tongue and starting a long and bloody war that would take generations for the Ironborn to recover then I'm not sure it could have happened after the Grreyjoy rebellion. 

 

OK thanks. I haven't quite finished reading TWOIAF yet, sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

OK thanks. I haven't quite finished reading TWOIAF yet, sorry.

sorry for the spoilers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great topic OP, Cersie thinks she is Tywin with teets but the truth is she doesnt even compare in the slightest she has made countless rash and horrible decisions her biggest IMO is trying to make an enemy out of the Tyrells when there the sole reason your son sits on throne. 

 

Tywin knew pleasing the Tyrells was the most important thing when it came to cementing the war and aftermath of the war, yes the Tyrells are asking for a lot but they are also giving ALOTE and taking a huge gamle backing the Lannisters and saving there golden asses. Garth the grose on the SC and his sons to the golden cloaks...... Who cares lol, just having Randyll Tarly along for the ride would put me at rest at night. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert pardoning the Greyjoys wasn't foolish. That's what almost everyone would do. They also took a hostage to ensure that he wouldn't rise against them again.

Perhaps pardoning the Greyjoys would be fine, but not Balon. It was his rebellion. He wouldn't rise against them again without his head. Make Theon the Lord of Pyke, and take hostages to ensure his loyalty, fine. If Balon had seen that he was losing, and surrendered earlier with the terms he received, that would be okay (preventing the deaths of thousands of people), but the fact that he fought to the bitter end and still came out so well is absurd. There is absolutely no reason that he should have been left alive.

Ned's treason earned him either execution or the Wall. They didn't just free him and say that they'll kill Sansa if he does it again.

10 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Also, that doesn't sound like something he would say and it doesn't fit his actions as King.

Sure it does. Joffrey is saying this in the context of war. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk" is certainly something you might hear Robert say if someone told him that he shouldn't have fought alongside his men. Tywin, for instance, leads from the back. Robert leads from the front. Aerys most certainly wasn't fighting during Robert's Rebellion, and I'm certain that Robert considers himself a stronger king than Aerys.

Though, of course, it might have simply been some idle rubbish that Joffrey himself came up with. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Perhaps pardoning the Greyjoys would be fine, but not Balon. It was his rebellion. He wouldn't rise against them again without his head. Make Theon the Lord of Pyke, and take hostages to ensure his loyalty, fine. If Balon had seen that he was losing, and surrendered earlier with the terms he received, that would be okay (preventing the deaths of thousands of people), but the fact that he fought to the bitter end and still came out so well is absurd. There is absolutely no reason that he should have been left alive.

Ned's treason earned him either execution or the Wall. They didn't just free him and say that they'll kill Sansa if he does it again.

Sure it does. Joffrey is saying this in the context of war. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk" is certainly something you might hear Robert say if someone told him that he shouldn't have fought alongside his men. Tywin, for instance, leads from the back. Robert leads from the front. Aerys most certainly wasn't fighting during Robert's Rebellion, and I'm certain that Robert considers himself a stronger king than Aerys.

Though, of course, it might have simply been some idle rubbish that Joffrey himself came up with. 

It wasn't treason.

Balon: You may take my head, but you cannot name me traitor. No Greyjoy ever swore fealty to a Baratheon.
Robert: Swear one now or lose that stubborn head of yours.

It often worked.

"My brother had a gift for inspiring loyalty. Even in his foes. At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought LordsGrandison and Cafferen back to Storm's End as prisoners. He hung their banners in the hall as trophies. Cafferen's white fawns were spotted with blood and Grandison's sleeping lion was torn near in two. Yet they would sit beneath those banners of a night, drinking and feasting with Robert. He even took them hunting. 'These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,' I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. 'You should not be putting axes in their hands.' Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends. Lord Cafferen died at Ashford Castle, cut down by Randyll Tarly whilst fighting for Robert."

Robert was passive. That sounds more like Cersei.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/13/2018 at 5:56 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

It wasn't treason.

Hmm. I really should get around to reading that World book. Makes you wonder how many lords never swore oaths of fealty to Robert.

On 7/13/2018 at 5:56 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

It often worked.

The difference between Balon and the lords Grandison and Cafferen is that the latter were serving their king, while Balon was serving only his own ambition.

On 7/13/2018 at 5:56 AM, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert was passive. That sounds more like Cersei.

He wrenched free of her. "Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."

The strong king that Joffrey is referring to is Robert, though. I don't think Cersei ever had anything quite so complimentary to say about the man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×