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Angel Eyes

So Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia Martell...

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It’s probably somewhat a moot point as Elia and the children were murdered shortly after Rheager was killed in battle. There is some suspicion that Elia may have been ok with the annulment in order to allow Rhaeger to have a third child in order to fulfill the prophecy that the “dragon has 3 heads”. She was not able to have a third child because of health reasons. Rheager probably did not want to publicly shame her so the whole thing was kept quiet. Perhaps some agreement was made with the Septon who annulled the marriage and wed Rheager and Leana but this is not specified. All this is from the book. Perhaps we will see more flashbacks of this in season 8.  

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History is not my cup of tea. But I suppose it happened with queens of real history. If the queen was repudiated for adultery, I suppose the king would question the legitimacy of the children. If she died or whatever other reason, it may be different. Given how it happened with Lyanna, I don't suppose a change of heir would have been welcomed by most of Westeros.

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AfterHenry VIIIth divorced Katherine of Aragon and executed Anne Boylen he had both Mary and Elizabeth declared bastards.  So there is precedent under English Law.   Of course, it would all be up to GRRM if he or if the show, has decided to follow that precedent.

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annulled and divorced are two different things. There doesn't appear to be a precedent in either the books or the show for divorce. Annulled in today's terms means null and void retroactively. This would mean their marriage never occurred, making Aegon and Rhaenys bastards. Of course, it could just be a fancy way of saying divorced which would make them legitimate. 

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I think it is probably lazy writing in the show as there is no negative consequence to consider.

In the books it would invalidate (f)Aegon's claim to the throne, even if Aegon is the real thing.  But there is historical precedent for a Targ to marry more than one woman, so in the books I think it would have transpired that he took both Elia and Lyanna as his wives.

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There is precedent of the Targaryens practicing poligamy, most notably with Aegon the Conqueror. With that precedent, I doubt that Rhaegar ever repudiated Elia Martell.

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On 8/2/2018 at 11:13 AM, The hairy bear said:

There is precedent of the Targaryens practicing poligamy, most notably with Aegon the Conqueror. With that precedent, I doubt that Rhaegar ever repudiated Elia Martell.

The only other time caused a massive war though. People seem to argue that poligamy was no big deal for the Targaryens. Aegon was already married to his sisters and had just conquered Westeros with dragons. When Maegor tried to take a second wife many people objected, especially the faith and this started a civil war.

Edited by KingMudd

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On 8/14/2018 at 11:00 PM, KingMudd said:

The only other time caused a massive war though. People seem to argue that poligamy was no big deal for the Targaryens. Aegon was already married to his sisters and had just conquered Westeros with dragons. When Maegor tried to take a second wife many people objected, especially the faith and this started a civil war.

Fair enough. A poligamous marriage would surely have caused a huge turmoil, at least. But let's keep in mind that Rhaegar had already kidnapped a daughter of a great lord, who was promised to another one. And had just alienated a third great house after the percieved humuliation that Elia Martell had received when she was passed over at the Tourney of Harrenhal. It's not as if he seemed to care much about PR at that time.

He seems to have been obsessed with the prophecy, and that was all that mattered to him. I doubt he spent much time dealing with bureaucracy and arguing with septons about the legal status of his marriages.

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On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:39 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Does that make her children with Rhaegar bastards?

Canon law provides that the children of a marriage which is subsequently annulled, are legitimate.  Therefore, they should still be in line to inherit.

Of course, their situation would be very difficult and delicate.  

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Canon law provides that the children of a marriage which is subsequently annulled, are legitimate.  Therefore, they should still be in line to inherit.

Of course, their situation would be very difficult and delicate.  

What ? 

Spoiler

 

"She is old enough to be Lady of Winterfell once her brother is dead. Claim her maidenhood and you will be one step closer to claiming the north. Get her with child, and the prize is all but won. Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"

"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is."

"Perhaps I should have married Sansa Stark to Moon Boy. He might have known what to do with her." A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

 

Please explain with source which canon law annulls consumed marriages. This is only possible if the children are from another one, but that exact annullment would not make the children legitimate. 

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11 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

What ? 

  Hide contents

 

"She is old enough to be Lady of Winterfell once her brother is dead. Claim her maidenhood and you will be one step closer to claiming the north. Get her with child, and the prize is all but won. Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"

"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is."

"Perhaps I should have married Sansa Stark to Moon Boy. He might have known what to do with her." A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

 

Please explain with source which canon law annulls consumed marriages. This is only possible if the children are from another one, but that exact annullment would not make the children legitimate. 

Taking English civil law first, an annulment can be granted on several grounds, under the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973, notwithstanding that consummation has taken place.

Marriages are void if one party is already married, or under age, or (if aged 16 to 18) parental consent has not been obtained or if the marriage is incestuous.  Marriages are voidable if one party has not consented to the marriage, or if a woman is pregnant by another man's child at the time of the marriage, and he is not aware of that fact.  

Under canon law (which governs the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church) wider grounds for annulment than these are allowed, for example, if someone enters into a marriage without intending to be faithful to their spouse (for example, if they were a prostitute without their spouse's knowledge, or having an affair at the time of marriage, which they continued).  

Canon 1137 provides that the children of an annulled marriage are legitimate.

Divorce doesn't exist in Westeros.  If annulment follows similar rules to canon law in real life, then Elia's children would be legitimate.  Only a royal decree could bar them from the succession. 

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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Taking English civil law first, an annulment can be granted on several grounds, under the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973, notwithstanding that consummation has taken place.

Marriages are void if one party is already married, or under age, or (if aged 16 to 18) parental consent has not been obtained or if the marriage is incestuous.  Marriages are voidable if one party has not consented to the marriage, or if a woman is pregnant by another man's child at the time of the marriage, and he is not aware of that fact.  

Under canon law (which governs the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church) wider grounds for annulment than these are allowed, for example, if someone enters into a marriage without intending to be faithful to their spouse (for example, if they were a prostitute without their spouse's knowledge, or having an affair at the time of marriage, which they continued).  

Canon 1137 provides that the children of an annulled marriage are legitimate.

Divorce doesn't exist in Westeros.  If annulment follows similar rules to canon law in real life, then Elia's children would be legitimate.  Only a royal decree could bar them from the succession. 

Ahh, you mean Canon law and not canon law. My bad. Well, you have a point. I think however, the show contradicts itself, when it comes to Sansa's (non existing) annullment to Tyrion. Which would be clearly annullable under Canon law (forced marriage) as opposed to book canon law. Furthermore the show states at some point, that non conumption is the only way of annullment. 

Edited by SirArthur

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24 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Ahh, you mean Canon law and not canon law. My bad. Well, you have a point. I think however, the show contradicts itself, when it comes to Sansa's (non existing) annullment to Tyrion. Which would be clearly annullable under Canon law (forced marriage) as opposed to book canon law. Furthermore the show states at some point, that non conumption is the only way of annullment. 

In practice, the law of Westeros probably doesn't matter much.  If Sansa, now Lady of Winterfell, said she had been wed by force, and chose to remarry, I doubt if anyone in the North, or any other Stark-friendly region, would dispute it.  Conversely, if the she had remained a prisoner of the Lannisters, nobody would gainsay them if they remained in power.

If Rhaegar had ascended the Iron Throne, he could declare the children by his marriage to Elia to be illegitimate and exclude them from the succession, although he'd be sowing the seeds of a civil war.  Even if he didn't, the likelihood is that his children by Elia and his children by Lyanna would have been rivals for power.

 

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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In practice, the law of Westeros probably doesn't matter much.  If Sansa, now Lady of Winterfell, said she had been wed by force, and chose to remarry, I doubt if anyone in the North, or any other Stark-friendly region, would dispute it.  Conversely, if the she had remained a prisoner of the Lannisters, nobody would gainsay them if they remained in power.

If Rhaegar had ascended the Iron Throne, he could declare the children by his marriage to Elia to be illegitimate and exclude them from the succession, although he'd be sowing the seeds of a civil war.  Even if he didn't, the likelihood is that his children by Elia and his children by Lyanna would have been rivals for power.

 

Even if he didn’t declare them illegitimate, he could still exclude them from the succession as technically the heir is whoever the King says. 

My own view, is that the most likely scenario is that his annulement of his marriage did not make his prior children illegitimate or take any action to remove them from the line of succession. 

That would have been the best way to both keep the Dornish placated - as a Martell would still be set to ascend the throne - and free himself to follow his heart and marry who he wanted. 

 

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On 8/30/2018 at 2:15 PM, SeanF said:

In practice, the law of Westeros probably doesn't matter much.  If Sansa, now Lady of Winterfell, said she had been wed by force, and chose to remarry, I doubt if anyone in the North, or any other Stark-friendly region, would dispute it.  Conversely, if the she had remained a prisoner of the Lannisters, nobody would gainsay them if they remained in power.

If Rhaegar had ascended the Iron Throne, he could declare the children by his marriage to Elia to be illegitimate and exclude them from the succession, although he'd be sowing the seeds of a civil war.  Even if he didn't, the likelihood is that his children by Elia and his children by Lyanna would have been rivals for power.

 

Well Rhaegar didn't ascend, so unless you are saying that Rhaegar had the power to remove Elia, I don't sea the "might makes right" argument going anywhere. Either Rhaegar's marriage was annulled and the dornish forces were fighting for him at the Trident for whatever reason ... or this entire idea needs a serious injection on royal power through Aerys II. 

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2 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Well Rhaegar didn't ascend, so unless you are saying that Rhaegar had the power to remove Elia, I don't sea the "might makes right" argument going anywhere. Either Rhaegar's marriage was annulled and the dornish forces were fighting for him at the Trident for whatever reason ... or this entire idea needs a serious injection on royal power through Aerys II. 

In the Show, it's a secret annulment (an idea that makes no sense at all) so presumably the Dornish would not have been aware that Elia had been repudiated.

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