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Arya and Roose


Giant Ice Spider

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In A Clash of Kings, Arya finds herself living as a maid (as in the profession) in Harrenhal, until the 'weasel soup' incident. This takes place as part of Roose Bolton taking Harrenhal.

The question is: why doesn't Roose recognise Arya?

I know Arya is scruffy and unkempt, but even at Winterfell Arya was scruffy and unkempt. Roose is a northern lord, so he would have visited Winterfell, and there seen Eddard Stark's youngest daughter. Arya also looks like Ned, to an extent. Even if he didn't think it was her, he could at least attempt to use a Stark-looking girl about Arya's age for something in his scheming (how ironic would it be if the 'fake Arya' he ended up using was in fact the real Arya). Instead, he planned to leave her with Vargo Hoat (which would mean, in effect, leaving her to the Lannisters).

What do you guys think? Did he know who she was? Did he care? I'm interested to hear what you all have to say on this.

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1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

There is no proof that he visited Winterfell during Eddard's rule. He has no idea how Arya looks.

I think this is it.  I know Theon thinks he was an idiot for making fun of Roose back in the day, but I believe he was referring to war councils with Robb and not chilling at Winterfell.  Knowing Roose, I think he'd want to stay as far away from Ned as possible.

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1.  Everyone thought Arya was dead since no one had seen her since Ned was taken.  Robb and Catlynn had discussed while in Robb's camp, so I would assume Roose would have heard. 

2.  Even when Roose visited WF, I don't think he would have paid any attention to her.  She is young, wild and was probably not around the lords who came to visit Ned.

3. Why would anyone suspect Arya turn up as a servant in Harrenhall

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30 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I think this is it.  I know Theon thinks he was an idiot for making fun of Roose back in the day, but I believe he was referring to war councils with Robb and not chilling at Winterfell.  Knowing Roose, I think he'd want to stay as far away from Ned as possible.

Correct. It's Robb's war council, not as a guest in Winterfell.

Although there is one quote which can hint that Jon Snow has met Roose before:

"Eddard Stark had never had any reason to complain of the Lord of the Dreadfort, so far as Jon knew, but even so he had never trusted him, with his whispery voice and his pale, pale eyes." (A Dance with Dragons, chapter 35, Jon VII)

So, it's either that Jon has personally met Roose so he remembers how his eyes look, or Eddard was telling his kids stories about Roose having "pale, pale eyes" and being distrustful of him.

If Jon met Roose in Winterfell, I guess it can be the case with Arya. However, no solid proof.

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4 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

In A Clash of Kings, Arya finds herself living as a maid (as in the profession) in Harrenhal, until the 'weasel soup' incident. This takes place as part of Roose Bolton taking Harrenhal.

The question is: why doesn't Roose recognise Arya?

I know Arya is scruffy and unkempt, but even at Winterfell Arya was scruffy and unkempt. Roose is a northern lord, so he would have visited Winterfell, and there seen Eddard Stark's youngest daughter. Arya also looks like Ned, to an extent. Even if he didn't think it was her, he could at least attempt to use a Stark-looking girl about Arya's age for something in his scheming (how ironic would it be if the 'fake Arya' he ended up using was in fact the real Arya). Instead, he planned to leave her with Vargo Hoat (which would mean, in effect, leaving her to the Lannisters).

What do you guys think? Did he know who she was? Did he care? I'm interested to hear what you all have to say on this.

I have sometimes wondered if he at least suspected who she was.  She is the right age and general appearance, and has obvious strong Northern sympathies.  It is possible that he gave her the cup-bearers job and put her in Elmar's (Arya's betrothed) way for this reason.

If he thought she was Arya, he couldn't take her with him, as he was going to the Twins, where Robb was.  Too much risk there.  As for turning her over to the Lannisters, Roose was getting ready to join the Lannisters, sothat wouldn't be too much of a problem.

I also remember, during his conversation with Jaime, that he said "Arya Stark was lost for a time, it was true, but now she has been found."  He is probably referring to (f)Arya, but it is possible that he could have found out about the real Arya, either on his own, or he could have spies in the BwB.  

In any case, I would not be surprised if he knows by now that he has met the real Arya Stark.

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41 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I have sometimes wondered if he at least suspected who she was.  She is the right age and general appearance, and has obvious strong Northern sympathies.  It is possible that he gave her the cup-bearers job and put her in Elmar's (Arya's betrothed) way for this reason.

If he thought she was Arya, he couldn't take her with him, as he was going to the Twins, where Robb was.  Too much risk there.  As for turning her over to the Lannisters, Roose was getting ready to join the Lannisters, sothat wouldn't be too much of a problem.

I also remember, during his conversation with Jaime, that he said "Arya Stark was lost for a time, it was true, but now she has been found."  He is probably referring to (f)Arya, but it is possible that he could have found out about the real Arya, either on his own, or he could have spies in the BwB.  

In any case, I would not be surprised if he knows by now that he has met the real Arya Stark.

I'm not sure that makes any sense.  If he had any suspicion of "Weasel" being Arya, he would have kept an armed guard around her 100% of the time.  She'd be an extremely valuable piece, especially with the Red Wedding coming up.

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This is one of the toughest questions to answer in my mind and I keep going back and forth with my answer: Did Roose recognize Arya at Harrenhal?

I lean toward toward yes. We know from the whole my lord/m'lord thing with Theon that he knew Arya was highborn, but there is no clear evidence that he sought to find out which house she belonged to. So, he wanted her identity to be concealed from all parties at Harrenhal. And that makes sense... Perhaps Roose was hiding her in plain sight? 

The only missing little highborn girl we know of is Arya, and Roose would have at least suspected that she was missing.

I can't believe that he ever intended to give such a precious asset to the goat, though. I don't think he meant to leave her behind, even though he told her that she would be left at Harrenhal.

Still, I can't find even a scintilla of evidence that Roose intended to leave "Nan" behind but secretly take the real Arya with him, or that he had a plan to recover the real Arya from Harrenhal after the Red Wedding. 

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6 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Roose hates The Starks. Why would he be near any of them?

True, but that does not prevent them from being useful to him. Arya is a girl of nine. Willful, aye, but there could be room for her to grow into a tool of Roose's. She could even be, say, wed to Ramsay to strengthen Roose's grip on the North. It might make things easier than say, having to, I don't know, use one of Littlefinger's prostitutes as a fake.

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Roose 100% did not know it was Arya or else he would have taken her hostage and married her to Ramsey as he did with the fake Arya, Roose obviously doesnt care about Arya or house Stark one bit why would he leave such a valuable child at Harrenhal? Makes no sense at all. Especially since (F)Arya could blow up in his face as soon as a Northern lord who knows Arya comes forward and says Ramseys wife aint her.

The She bear, Glover and Howland Reed, Theon, Blackfish, LF, and more could all prove (F) Arya is fake.

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1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

Roose 100% did not know it was Arya or else he would have taken her hostage

He did, didn't he? Can't wards, cupbearers, pages, squires, and ladies in waiting be counted as hostages if needed? 

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

and married her to Ramsey as he did with the fake Arya,

Perhaps, he had that in mind to do. 

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

Roose obviously doesnt care about Arya or house Stark one bit why would he leave such a valuable child at Harrenhal? Makes no sense at all.

He didn't leave her at Harrenhal; she escaped before he left. It is vexing that he told her that Nan would remain. But Roose has been known to lie... from time to time. 

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

Especially since (F)Arya could blow up in his face as soon as a Northern lord who knows Arya comes forward and says Ramseys wife aint her.

The She bear, Glover and Howland Reed, Theon, Blackfish, LF, and more could all prove (F) Arya is fake.

Ramsay Bolton's marriage to Arya Stark is intended to strengthen Ramsay's lordship over Winterfell, and Roose's overlordship of the North. Bolton's power does not derive from the marriage. 

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50 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

He did, didn't he? Can't wards, cupbearers, pages, squires, and ladies in waiting be counted as hostages if needed? 

Perhaps, he had that in mind to do. 

He didn't leave her at Harrenhal; she escaped before he left. It is vexing that he told her that Nan would remain. But Roose has been known to lie... from time to time. 

Ramsay Bolton's marriage to Arya Stark is intended to strengthen Ramsay's lordship over Winterfell, and Roose's overlordship of the North. Bolton's power does not derive from the marriage. 

Roose power derives from the Lannisters PERIOD, once Tommon and the Lannisters go bye bye what do you think the Northern lords who btw HATE the Boltons are gonna do? Rebel against the Boltons and win the rebellion, Roose needs (F)Arya bad because if Ramsey produces a true heir from her he can spin it as Ramseys son is the true lord of the North and it may and probably would pacify the Northern Lords. 

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If Roose would of known that she was a lady of WF, he would of had her kept somewhere safe. She would of been very valuable to any northern ambitions either with or without Robb.
Roose doesn't screw around.

It would be silly to say impossible without his POV. The one reason he may of said nothing was to prevent other northerners who were loyal to the Starks returning her straight Cat. He was playing his cards close to his chest at that time. But to of done nothing, nadda, zip? He could of done whatever he liked. 

There was one scene when it says, 

Quote

He turned to stare at her, and from the look in his eyes it was as if his supper had just spoken to him.


That is in response to her asking him if she'd take her along when he left. And he shuts her down completely. But what's important to note is the manner in which he regards her. It seems to suggest that he thinks she's a commoner.
I think he took a shine to her Weasel Soup plot plus she was a northerner so he gave her a decent job. A promotion compared to her first few positions at Harrenhal. 

Overall, I'm more interested in finding out the name and the contents of that book Arya saw him reading before discarding it into the fire.

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4 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Roose 100% did not know it was Arya or else he would have taken her hostage and married her to Ramsey as he did with the fake Arya, Roose obviously doesnt care about Arya or house Stark one bit why would he leave such a valuable child at Harrenhal? Makes no sense at all. Especially since (F)Arya could blow up in his face as soon as a Northern lord who knows Arya comes forward and says Ramseys wife aint her.

The She bear, Glover and Howland Reed, Theon, Blackfish, LF, and more could all prove (F) Arya is fake.

Of those you mention, only Theon and Littlefinger have actually met either Arya or (f)Arya.  The others don't know what she looks like.  And Theon has already vouched for (f)Arya.  While both of them, as well as Jon Snow, could say she is fake, they could be discredited or simply disbelieved.

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

He didn't leave her at Harrenhal; she escaped before he left. It is vexing that he told her that Nan would remain. But Roose has been known to lie... from time to time.

Roose can't really take her with him to the Twins, because Robb is there.  Robb might send Arya away to safety, or Arya might tell Robb things she knows, such as Roose's order for Glover to attack Duskendale.   

And she did have to murder someone in order to leave, so it isn't as if she was completely unguarded.

 

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Admittedly it has be a while since I re-read the five books in entirety.

Without bringing a bunch of quotes, I'm trying to get a bead on a series of events.

It is revealed in  A Clash of Kings - Catelyn V    She had not known that Ser Stevron was dead, nor of Bolton's marriage to Frey.

In CoK Arya IX before Arya  escapes Harrenhal Roose receives a raven from his wife. The news  upsets the Frey's because it brings news of Robb's marriage to Jeyne. The Frey's think they have been dishonored.

After the battle of Blackwater  in SoS Tywin says to Tyrion:  A Storm of Swords - Tyrion I     I have important letters to finish."    "Important letters. To be sure."   "Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens.

Kinda implies to me that the ravens have been busy fluttering a bout for a while.

It is in SoS Jaime VI that Roose and Jaime have their exchange about:      "Even at the ruby ford, the crossing will be difficult. You will give my warm regards to your father?"     "So long as you give mine to Robb Stark."/

It is actually the SoS Jaime V chapter that contains the meat and potatoes of Roose's character.

If Frey was collaborating with Lannister and Bolton was collaborating with Frey before Robb's  marriage to Westerling---- there is a lot of wiggle room like the Joffrey dagger thing that took three books to resolve & is still argued.

Roose would not need or want Arya Stark. Arya, the girl supposedly behind the weasel soup would be a liability. What Roose got for betraying Robb was a broken manageable imposter for his son and the Warden ship of the North. Plus Ramsey got the gift of legitimization from the IT.

Would Roose know Arya Stark by sight or keen observational skills?

It is a long shot. I would think that Bolton attended one or more of the "harvest feasts" that were held at WF. I bring up harvest feast because of the below quote.

Clash of Kings - Bran II     Long before the first pale fingers of light pried apart Bran's shutters, his eyes were open.     There were guests in Winterfell, visitors come for the harvest feast./

But, maybe during Eddard's fifteen years as Warden of the North, Bolton had no reason to visit WF to pay homage to his Warden.

A Clash of Kings - Bran II    "The feast makes a pleasant pretext," Ser Rodrik explained, "but a man does not cross a hundred leagues for a sliver of duck and a sip of wine. Only those who have matters of import to set before us are like to make the journey."/

Personally, I think Roose surmised that Nan was/is Arya. He didn't need the real deal because she would have been defiant and unmanageable.  Roose was gonna leave her for Tywin"s Bloody Mummers to have sport with.

Roose in DwD seemed to be aware of Ramsey's activities  --- the burning of WF & Theon's captivity which happened in CoK ---- dem ravens musta been busy flapping.

Perhaps I am over thinking. I do think Roose knew he had Arya Stark. Arya Stark didn't fit his plan.

 

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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Of those you mention, only Theon and Littlefinger have actually met either Arya or (f)Arya.  The others don't know what she looks like.  And Theon has already vouched for (f)Arya.  While both of them, as well as Jon Snow, could say she is fake, they could be discredited or simply disbelieved.

Roose can't really take her with him to the Twins, because Robb is there.  Robb might send Arya away to safety, or Arya might tell Robb things she knows, such as Roose's order for Glover to attack Duskendale.   

And she did have to murder someone in order to leave, so it isn't as if she was completely unguarded.

 

Clearly. If there was just one tiny hint in the text that he had a plan for retrieving her, it would be s simple question. 

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4 hours ago, Nevets said:

Of those you mention, only Theon and Littlefinger have actually met either Arya or (f)Arya.  The others don't know what she looks like.  And Theon has already vouched for (f)Arya.  While both of them, as well as Jon Snow, could say she is fake, they could be discredited or simply disbelieved.

Roose can't really take her with him to the Twins, because Robb is there.  Robb might send Arya away to safety, or Arya might tell Robb things she knows, such as Roose's order for Glover to attack Duskendale.   

And she did have to murder someone in order to leave, so it isn't as if she was completely unguarded.

 

There is no way no lords of the North have been in contact with the Neds family, WF would be visited frequently not to mention the Winter harvest dinner which most lords try to attend. 

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