Arya and Roose

[Nevets]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Personally, I think Roose surmised that Nan was/is Arya. He didn't need the real deal because she would have been defiant and unmanageable.  Roose was gonna leave her for Tywin"s Bloody Mummers to have sport with.

Arya was pretty much on her best behavior at Harrenhal, so I doubt that would have been a factor.  And it is generally better to have the real thing than a fake.  I think a bigger problem would have been her age.  She is simply nowhere near old enough to be plausibly marriageable.  Even in the preview chapter in Braavos, she has yet to develop breasts.  I doubt that anyone in the North knows exactly how old Arya is, except that she is younger than Sansa, who is younger than Robb.  Even Jeyne is barely old enough, and she is about 2 years older.

57 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

There is no way no lords of the North have been in contact with the Neds family, WF would be visited frequently not to mention the Winter harvest dinner which most lords try to attend. 

Most of the ones who would have visited are dead, or not present.  The Manderlys are the only ones who might have seen her, and that would have 2-3 years ago, at minimum.  And given that she was the younger daughter, they probably wouldn't have paid her much attention. 

[Leonardo]

On 7/12/2018 at 1:17 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Was Roose at the feast when Bob came to Winterfell? 

 

He certainly should have been. He's in the top 3 important high lords in the North, and he's not that far away in the scheme of things compared to many others. Then again it seems like Manderly wasn't there either...

[Giant Ice Spider]

10 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

He certainly should have been. He's in the top 3 important high lords in the North, and he's not that far away in the scheme of things compared to many others. Then again it seems like Manderly wasn't there either...

None of the northern bannermen were. The only person Ned invited from outside Winterfell was his brother Benjen.

[Stormking902]

12 hours ago, Nevets said:

Arya was pretty much on her best behavior at Harrenhal, so I doubt that would have been a factor.  And it is generally better to have the real thing than a fake.  I think a bigger problem would have been her age.  She is simply nowhere near old enough to be plausibly marriageable.  Even in the preview chapter in Braavos, she has yet to develop breasts.  I doubt that anyone in the North knows exactly how old Arya is, except that she is younger than Sansa, who is younger than Robb.  Even Jeyne is barely old enough, and she is about 2 years older.

Most of the ones who would have visited are dead, or not present.  The Manderlys are the only ones who might have seen her, and that would have 2-3 years ago, at minimum.  And given that she was the younger daughter, they probably wouldn't have paid her much attention. 

Perhaps your right in the fact Arya would have been very young and a second daughter but Arya is still a very good marriage option for Northern lords sons because they join there houses to the Starks which is crucial, any lords with sons even remotely close in age would try and make a match. Its not unheard of that full grown men lets say lil Jon Umber would WAIT as long as 6 to 10 years if there was a bethrothal in place with the Starks of WF. My point lords would be sizeing her up as mariage prospects......... Side note there would be alote more Umber bastards running around ahaha. 

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Perhaps your right in the fact Arya would have been very young and a second daughter but Arya is still a very good marriage option for Northern lords sons because they join there houses to the Starks which is crucial, any lords with sons even remotely close in age would try and make a match. Its not unheard of that full grown men lets say lil Jon Umber would WAIT as long as 6 to 10 years if there was a bethrothal in place with the Starks of WF. My point lords would be sizeing her up as mariage prospects......... Side note there would be alote more Umber bastards running around ahaha. 

Lord Cerwyn, Lord Tallhart, and Lord Hornwood and their heirs are all dead.  Lord Umber is imprisoned and his heir is dead.  The Ryswells are Bolton supporters, and who knows what Lady Dustin is up to.

As for the rest of the North, Arya failed to recognize either Wylis Manderly or even his sigil, suggesting that she hasn't had much contact with them.  Robett Glover failed to recognize her at Harrenhal, nor did Arya expect him to, which would suggest that they haven't met.  I doubt that any of the Mormonts would recognize her; the main members went south; same with the Karstarks.

Pretty much everybody who can positively identify Arya or Jeyne Poole is dead, and those who are alive (Jon, Sansa, Littlefinger for example) can probably have their motives impugned and be effectively discredited.

[Leonardo]

On 7/14/2018 at 3:50 AM, Giant Ice Spider said:

None of the northern bannermen were. The only person Ned invited from outside Winterfell was his brother Benjen.

That seems... Odd. Robert, their king and his, has never been in the north before. I'm going to go ahead and say in hindsight, Martin would have had more bannermen there. This was a momentous occasion; the mountain clans followed Stannis into battle just for hanging out and saying hello to a king.

[Giant Ice Spider]

3 hours ago, Leonardo said:

That seems... Odd. Robert, their king and his, has never been in the north before. I'm going to go ahead and say in hindsight, Martin would have had more bannermen there. This was a momentous occasion; the mountain clans followed Stannis into battle just for hanging out and saying hello to a king.

Good point. It is definitely weird Ned never invited any bannermen

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, Leonardo said:

That seems... Odd. Robert, their king and his, has never been in the north before. I'm going to go ahead and say in hindsight, Martin would have had more bannermen there. This was a momentous occasion; the mountain clans followed Stannis into battle just for hanging out and saying hello to a king.

I think it's safe to say the chapter was written very early, before The George had a clear handle on who all the bannerman were. Given the very early foreshadowing of Theon remarking that Hodor knew his name, I expect that he had Roose's betrayal worked out. But I don't think he had Jaime's arc completely worked out since there is still some lingering foreshadowing that Jaime would be king. 

[Nittanian]

On 7/13/2018 at 10:46 AM, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Roose hates The Starks.

When is that mentioned?

On 7/13/2018 at 4:56 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I think he took a shine to her Weasel Soup plot plus she was a northerner so he gave her a decent job.

Are you possibly thinking of Tywin in the show? I don't recall Roose learning that Nymeria/Nan is a northerner. From what I can tell Roose thinks she is just a local commoner.

On 7/13/2018 at 7:20 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

In CoK Arya IX before Arya  escapes Harrenhal Roose receives a raven from his wife. The news  upsets the Frey's because it brings news of Robb's marriage to Jeyne. The Frey's think they have been dishonored.

In ACOK Arya X, Roose holds a war council in the morning, and the Freys have a defeatist attitude after Stannis's defeat at the Blackwater. After the Freys are dismissed from Kingspyre Tower, Roose has Qyburn read Walda's newest message from the Twins:

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The Lady Walda wrote from the Twins almost every day, but all the letters were the same. "I pray for you morn, noon, and night, my sweet lord," she wrote, "and count the days until you share my bed again. Return to me soon, and I will give you many trueborn sons to take the place of your dear Domeric and rule the Dreadfort after you." 

Some fans think this is code from Walder to Roose, but that is unconfirmed (it also is apparently the same message from previous ravens). Roose issues orders to have Helman Tallhart sack Darry, then join Robett Glover (and Harrion Karstark) in marching on Duskendale.

While Roose is away hunting wolves, Arya notices a raven arrive in the early afternoon.

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As Arya crossed the yard to the bathhouse, she spied a raven circling down toward the rookery, and wondered where it had come from and what message it carried. Might be it's from Robb, come to say it wasn't true about Bran and Rickon. She chewed on her lip, hoping. If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to.

 After the hunting party returns in the evening, Roose tasks Nan with preparing his food and wine. Roose states he intends to leave her at Harrenhal with Vargo. After leaving Roose's chamber, Arya learns that the Freys at the Wailing Tower are upset, with Elmar stating they have been dishonored. So, the mystery raven was Walder informing Aenys of Robb's marriage to Jeyne.

Quote

On her way to the godswood, she passed the Wailing Tower where once she had lived in fear of Weese. The Freys had taken it for their own since Harrenhal's fall. She could hear angry voices coming from a window, many men talking and arguing all at once. Elmar was sitting on the steps outside, alone.

"What's wrong?" Arya asked him when she saw the tears shining on his cheeks.

"My princess," he sobbed. "We've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I'll need to marry someone else, or be a septon."

 

On 7/13/2018 at 7:20 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Roose in DwD seemed to be aware of Ramsey's activities  --- the burning of WF & Theon's captivity which happened in CoK ---- dem ravens musta been busy flapping.

Ramsay sacks Winterfell two chapters later, in ACOK Theon VI. It's unclear if Roose ordered Ramsay, or if the Bastard acted independently. It makes sense that the Dreadfort garrison would only follow Roose's orders, and Ramsay orders that the Frey wards be spared. However, Ramsay had been  reported as having been killed by Rodrik Cassel's men and "Reek" had been taken as a prisoner to Winterfell, so Roose would have been under the impression that Ramsay was dead.  Theon then freed "Reek" to get reinforcements. Ramsay needed to gather Dreadfort men quickly, or else he risked Rodrik retaking Winterfell himself. Would Ramsay have had enough time to send a message south explaining that he was alive and await a response from his father? The AFFC Appendix lists Ramsay as castellan of the Dreadfort; if he already had that title earlier, the garrison would presumably have followed his orders in Roose's absence.

On 7/13/2018 at 7:20 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Personally, I think Roose surmised that Nan was/is Arya. He didn't need the real deal because she would have been defiant and unmanageable.  Roose was gonna leave her for Tywin"s Bloody Mummers to have sport with.

I do think Roose knew he had Arya Stark. Arya Stark didn't fit his plan.

If Roose knew that Nan was Arya, I don't think he would have risked leaving her with the Mummers. I think he would have had her discretely killed to tie up a loose end. 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 11:10 AM, Giant Ice Spider said:

In A Clash of Kings, Arya finds herself living as a maid (as in the profession) in Harrenhal, until the 'weasel soup' incident. This takes place as part of Roose Bolton taking Harrenhal.

The question is: why doesn't Roose recognise Arya?

I know Arya is scruffy and unkempt, but even at Winterfell Arya was scruffy and unkempt. Roose is a northern lord, so he would have visited Winterfell, and there seen Eddard Stark's youngest daughter. Arya also looks like Ned, to an extent. Even if he didn't think it was her, he could at least attempt to use a Stark-looking girl about Arya's age for something in his scheming (how ironic would it be if the 'fake Arya' he ended up using was in fact the real Arya). Instead, he planned to leave her with Vargo Hoat (which would mean, in effect, leaving her to the Lannisters).

What do you guys think? Did he know who she was? Did he care? I'm interested to hear what you all have to say on this.

I think it's pretty definite that he did not recognize her at the time, but he may have realized his mistake later.

If Roose was a normal bannerman, than he should have been able to recognize Arya pretty easily, considering he would take a great interest in all of the Stark children if he ever hoped to marry his children, or even himself, into the ruling family, and that would mean regular visits to Winterfell to size up any and all potential matches. But I don't think Roose was very welcome at Winterfell under Lord Eddard, so he probably did not pay much homage to his lord the way other vassals would have, and thus would not have recognized Arya at Harrenhall.

But I think that the whole "my lord" "m'lord" conversation with Theon later in Dance had to do with Roose realizing belatedly that he at least had a highborn girl in his grasp, if not putting 2&2 together and figuring out it was Arya. If you re-read their conversations at Harrenhall, Arya frequently says "my lord", never "m'lord" like she should have if she was a commoner. If he had known who she was at the time, he most definitely would have kept her to himself, not given her back to Robb or to Hoat or Tywin or anyone. She is too valuable.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 7/16/2018 at 5:41 PM, Nittanian said:

Are you possibly thinking of Tywin in the show? I don't recall Roose learning that Nymeria/Nan is a northerner. From what I can tell Roose thinks she is just a local commoner.

No. I just don't believe Arya (in aCoK) is as adept at subterfuge as she believes. I think she'd still show the trademarks of a little northern girl. Her grey eyes and long face. And her accent too, perhaps. She has a look akin to that of a very well known northern woman in Lyanna Stark. But it is not supported in the text during the interaction, so it's just what I think.



 

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

No. I just don't believe Arya (in aCoK) is as adept at subterfuge as she believes. I think she'd still show the trademarks of a little northern girl. Her grey eyes and long face. And her accent too, perhaps. She has a look akin to that of a very well known northern woman in Lyanna Stark. But it is not supported in the text during the interaction, so it's just what I think.



 

There is also the fact that she went to a great deal of trouble to release a large group of northern prisoners,, for apparently no gain to herself.  That alone would likely make a smart guy like Roose wonder about her.  Also her way of talking could have branded her as either a highborn and/or a Northerner to someone who was paying close attention.

[Tucu]

35 minutes ago, Nevets said:

There is also the fact that she went to a great deal of trouble to release a large group of northern prisoners,, for apparently no gain to herself.  That alone would likely make a smart guy like Roose wonder about her.  Also her way of talking could have branded her as either a highborn and/or a Northerner to someone who was paying close attention.

It is also possible that Roose was blinded by his own plans with Tywin; maybe he was already offered (f)Arya and was not paying attention.

[The Sleeper]

Roose Bolton just has that vibe that he knows things and has secret plans. Which he does. 

The most sensible course if action, had he figured out who his cupbearer was, would have been to grab Steelshanks and a couple of trusted guards and have them keep her hidden in a tower room somewhere. There would have been no benefit into leaving her running around on her own. 

Arya apparently did not raise a much of a fuss with her accent or her mannerisms, through the road, her captivity or her time at Harrenhal. By the time she was with Roose she likely never addressed anyone highborn on her own and she spent the vast majority of her time with the lowborn. She spent much of her time in Winterfell with the servants to begin with. There would also have been no lack of people who hated the Lannisters or Lorch in particular. While her participation in the Weasel soup would have drawn attention, there was no follow-up to it. Prior to that she would have been just a nameless servant. It would have been quite a leap for Roose to deduce her identity. 

His comments to Theon may indicate that he figured it out later. She stole some of his own hunting horses, which would invite more scrutiny. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 7/18/2018 at 5:00 PM, Nevets said:

There is also the fact that she went to a great deal of trouble to release a large group of northern prisoners,, for apparently no gain to herself.  That alone would likely make a smart guy like Roose wonder about her.  Also her way of talking could have branded her as either a highborn and/or a Northerner to someone who was paying close attention.

I suspect he recognized who she was right off the bat...

Quote

Vargo Hoat came forward. "My lord, Harrenhal ith yourth."

The lord gave answer, but too softly for Arya to hear. Robett Glover and Ser Aenys Frey, freshly bathed and clad in clean new doublets and cloaks, came up to join them. After some brielf talk, Ser Aenys led them over to Rorge and Biter. Arya was surprised to see them still here; somehow she would have expected them to vanish when Jaqen did. Arya heard the harsh sound of Rorge's voice, but not what he was saying. Then Shagwellpounced on her, dragging her out across the yard. "My lord, my lord," he sang, tugging at her wrist, "here's the weasel who made the soup!"

"Let go," Arya said, wriggling out of his grasp.

The lord regarded her. Only his eyes moved; they were very pale, the color of ice. "How old are you, child?"

She had to think for a moment to remember. "Ten."

"Ten, my lord," he reminded her. "Are you fond of animals?"

"Some kinds. My lord."

A thin smile twitched across his lips. "But not lions, it would seem. Nor manticores."

She did not know what to say to that, so she said nothing.

"They tell me you are called Weasel. That will not serve. What name did your mother give you?"

She bit her lip, groping for another name. Lommy had called her Lumpyhead, Sansa used Horseface, and her father's men once dubbed her Arya Underfoot, but she did not think any of those were the sort of name he wanted.

"Nymeria," she said. "Only she called me Nan for short."

"You will call me my lord when you speak to me, Nan," the lord said mildly. "You are too young to be a Brave Companion, I think, and of the wrong sex. Are you afraid of leeches, child?"

"They're only leeches. My lord."

"My squire could take a lesson from you, it would seem. Frequent leechings are the secret of a long life. A man must purge himself of bad blood. You will do, I think. For so long as I remain at Harrenhal, Nan, you shall be my cupbearer, and serve me at table and in chambers."

This time she knew better than to say that she'd sooner work in the stables. "Yes, your lord. I mean, my lord."

Arya IX, Clash 47