hodorisfaclessman Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Thinking about varys comment about power and trolling dany fans on a dofferent forum came up with some interesting points -dany is a sociopath from almaot our first meeting she wants the throne thats 'rightfully hers' despite the obvious fact that her side lost the civil war and arent entitled to jack! She and her bro want this no matter how many have to die to make it happen - she tries to persuade gengis lite (drogo) to rampage across essos then westeros for her throne even condones the sacking of villages -unleashed dragons back into the world with no means of control or how to stem them from breeding! -kills magys whos pretty much an avenging hero...saving essos from a new attila the hun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btfu806 Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Dany is a character I generally disliked in the books and couldn't stand in the show. But to me she has been one of the main antagonist (villain seems too strong) of the books. Mostly everything she does is through her version of what justice is, or what she believes is right from her own personal agenda/ideas. I can't stand in the show (and I am not sure if they do it in the books, I can't remember now) how other characters have to continuously justify why she is a good person to the viewer (and maybe reader). If you have to do that, she isn't a good person then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 1 hour ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Thinking about varys comment about power and trolling dany fans on a dofferent forum came up with some interesting points -dany is a sociopath from almaot our first meeting she wants the throne thats 'rightfully hers' despite the obvious fact that her side lost the civil war and arent entitled to jack! She and her bro want this no matter how many have to die to make it happen - she tries to persuade gengis lite (drogo) to rampage across essos then westeros for her throne even condones the sacking of villages -unleashed dragons back into the world with no means of control or how to stem them from breeding! -kills magys whos pretty much an avenging hero...saving essos from a new attila the hun Shes better then most. Not sure if that constitutes her as "good" Meh, its halftime. Targaryens ball now. Everyone wants whats theirs and wont stop to get it, like Lannister or Stannis. Some want whats not theirs like Robert and Robb. Do you think Robb cared about the wars death toll? He didnt. Whats an army good for if not sacking villages? And she did a decent job on keeping the pillaging down. She unleashed dragons, Ned direwolves. Theyre living animals, they have a right to exist. Shes no angel, but time and time again you see her supreme regalty as well as her "gentle heart" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted July 12, 2018 Author Share Posted July 12, 2018 19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Shes better then most. Not sure if that constitutes her as "good" Meh, its halftime. Targaryens ball now. Everyone wants whats theirs and wont stop to get it, like Lannister or Stannis. Some want whats not theirs like Robert and Robb. Do you think Robb cared about the wars death toll? He didnt. Whats an army good for if not sacking villages? And she did a decent job on keeping the pillaging down. She unleashed dragons, Ned direwolves. Theyre living animals, they have a right to exist. Shes no angel, but time and time again you see her supreme regalty as well as her "gentle heart" Robb had a legitimate grevience he wanted revenge,dany just wants to rule a place shes never been! She didnt stop the sacking much at all Direwolves arent remotely the same sort of threat of dragoms breeding ! Back im valyrian times they knew how to bond with them now all that is lost so as a species they are a huge threat to mankind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Robb had a legitimate grevience he wanted revenge,dany just wants to rule a place shes never been! She didnt stop the sacking much at all Direwolves arent remotely the same sort of threat of dragoms breeding ! Back im valyrian times they knew how to bond with them now all that is lost so as a species they are a huge threat to mankind! Dany doesn't want revenge? They killed her family. And a kings legitimate grevience for starting a war isnt revenge! She saved everyone she saw. When Drogo told her its not done he quickly changed his mind. Nymerias got a higher headcount in the riverlands then Rorge Gregor and Beric put together. Mankind will be fine, we always are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted July 12, 2018 Author Share Posted July 12, 2018 Continued -drags her new followers across a burning wasteland rather than surrender her power crazed dreams - in quarth at a low ebb instantly turns to the dark arts for help - betrays an honestly fulfiled trade of one excellent army for one dragon and then leaves behind a shambles of goverment -shacks up with cold blooded sociopath daario -wrecks slave trade in slavers bay without any idea to replace it (maybe pay the former slaves for their skillls?) -disasterous rule in mereen ! Stops one of its main economic pillars (gladiator tourism) because she feels its icky Tv show -takes dothraki co8ncil and replaces it with tyranical one person cult leadership -brings dothraki across to westeros for first time to give them a taste for it ,due to dragon air support theyl remember westeros forces as easy pickings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted July 12, 2018 Author Share Posted July 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said: Dany doesn't want revenge? They killed her family. And a kings legitimate grevience for starting a war isnt revenge! She saved everyone she saw. When Drogo told her its not done he quickly changed his mind. Nymerias got a higher headcount in the riverlands then Rorge Gregor and Beric put together. Mankind will be fine, we always are Robb is avenging the kind father who raised him ,dany never knew hers Robb had bo desirr for the iron throne..danys feels its her right and all opposed must bleed She savee a handful in a large sacking Mymeria still wouldnt be an issue vs actual dragons..breeding and rampaging uncontrolled over westeros Nymerias wolf pack could be easily culled by any low level lords knight retinue (armour vs dog teeth=armour wins) dragons by contrast are a threat to the realm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Continued -drags her new followers across a burning wasteland rather than surrender her power crazed dreams - in quarth at a low ebb instantly turns to the dark arts for help - betrays an honestly fulfiled trade of one excellent army for one dragon and then leaves behind a shambles of goverment -shacks up with cold blooded sociopath daario -wrecks slave trade in slavers bay without any idea to replace it (maybe pay the former slaves for their skillls?) -disasterous rule in mereen ! Stops one of its main economic pillars (gladiator tourism) because she feels its icky Tv show -takes dothraki co8ncil and replaces it with tyranical one person cult leadership -brings dothraki across to westeros for first time to give them a taste for it ,due to dragon air support theyl remember westeros forces as easy pickings! Her people followed her. That was their decision. Why not? Magics cool Did you just say slavery is an honestly fulfilled trade? Its fucking slavery, evil by all means, especially the Ghscari way Darrio is the man! Replace it with not slaves. Its already better. It is icky. Shits barbaric. I dont do the television 7 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Robb is avenging the kind father who raised him ,dany never knew hers Robb had bo desirr for the iron throne..danys feels its her right and all opposed must bleed She savee a handful in a large sacking Mymeria still wouldnt be an issue vs actual dragons..breeding and rampaging uncontrolled over westeros Nymerias wolf pack could be easily culled by any low level lords knight retinue (armour vs dog teeth=armour wins) dragons by contrast are a threat to the realm So because Ned used to invite Robb for dinner like hes a smallfolk that gives him a right to butcher Westeros? Robb had a desire for the Iron Islands, The Vale and of course, the stie of his coronation, the Riverlands. None were his yet he assumed they would be. Ok, whatever The dragonriders of old kept them in check, as Dany did in Merreen. Roose went wolf hunting, he did ok. No Nymeria though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted July 12, 2018 Author Share Posted July 12, 2018 9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Her people followed her. That was their decision. Why not? Magics cool Did you just say slavery is an honestly fulfilled trade? Its fucking slavery, evil by all means, especially the Ghscari way Darrio is the man! Replace it with not slaves. Its already better. It is icky. Shits barbaric. I dont do the television So because Ned used to invite Robb for dinner like hes a smallfolk that gives him a right to butcher Westeros? Robb had a desire for the Iron Islands, The Vale and of course, the stie of his coronation, the Riverlands. None were his yet he assumed they would be. Ok, whatever The dragonriders of old kept them in check, as Dany did in Merreen. Roose went wolf hunting, he did ok. No Nymeria though. Wel agree to disagree here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 10 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Wel agree to disagree here If you want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Pretty much every leader has moral shortcomings to some degree. Obviously some worse than others. I think the main issue with Dany and why people actively dislike her, is she pretty much has tunnel vision with her own morality, acting better than everyone else when she really isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 The largest point against Daenerys is that dragons can't be good or useful. GRRM confirmed that dragons are a WMD metaphor, which means we know because of his ideology that they have to make the world a worse place, a net loss. So, for that matter, is war itself. War is never the answer, but Daenerys brings war. So, yes, she's an antagonist, a "bad guy". She's sympathetic, because GRRM is really good at creating compelling characters, but her direct impact on the world will be nothing but hardship and misery. "But she's a strong woman, and GRRM is also a feminist" you might argue. But Martin's feelings about women and their role in the world is extremely complex. We've read Meathouse Man. Martin has had a lifetime of heartache and rejection, and his anger towards women finds its way into his writing constantly. Intellectually he may believe he's a feminist, but the reality isn't that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Don't forget her incredible Valyrian beauty. On a scale from 1 to Rhaegar she's a 8.5 or a 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordred Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 8 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Thinking about varys comment about power and trolling dany fans on a dofferent forum came up with some interesting points -dany is a sociopath from almaot our first meeting she wants the throne thats 'rightfully hers' despite the obvious fact that her side lost the civil war and arent entitled to jack! She and her bro want this no matter how many have to die to make it happen - she tries to persuade gengis lite (drogo) to rampage across essos then westeros for her throne even condones the sacking of villages -unleashed dragons back into the world with no means of control or how to stem them from breeding! -kills magys whos pretty much an avenging hero...saving essos from a new attila the hun I think you mistake who the sociopath is. Arya is the sociopath. There is nothing wrong with Dany's ambition to take back the kingdom that her family built. It is no different if a Stark wanted to take back Winterfell. Sure, the Targaryens lost but the rightful king escaped and was crowned, King Viserys. Daenerys is his heir. If you want to argue right of conquest taking away property then we need to consider that the Starks rebelled and lost. It doesn't matter how the Starks lost, they lost, and they lost badly. Eddard already gave a public confession to treason. Dany has as much claim to the seven kingdoms as the Starks have to Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Mordred said: I think you mistake who the sociopath is. Arya is the sociopath. There is nothing wrong with Dany's ambition to take back the kingdom that her family built. It is no different if a Stark wanted to take back Winterfell. Sure, the Targaryens lost but the rightful king escaped and was crowned, King Viserys. Daenerys is his heir. If you want to argue right of conquest taking away property then we need to consider that the Starks rebelled and lost. It doesn't matter how the Starks lost, they lost, and they lost badly. Eddard already gave a public confession to treason. Dany has as much claim to the seven kingdoms as the Starks have to Winterfell. It's both. The Starks would be wrong to wage war for Winterfell and Daenerys is wrong to wage war for the Iron Throne. Revenge is an even worse reason for war, even if you dress it up as "justice". War is never the answer. And with the theme of the entire series revolving around the pointless cyclical brutality of war, its baffling to me that people seem convinced the story is going to end with a war saving the world, that the Others will be defeated by lighting them on fire and hitting them with magic swords. It's absurd, and requires a complete misunderstanding of Martin's philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 How do I like Hugorfonics posts TELL MEH BY GAWD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 7 hours ago, Damon_Tor said: The largest point against Daenerys is that dragons can't be good or useful. GRRM confirmed that dragons are a WMD metaphor, which means we know because of his ideology that they have to make the world a worse place, a net loss. So, for that matter, is war itself. War is never the answer, but Daenerys brings war. So, yes, she's an antagonist, a "bad guy". She's sympathetic, because GRRM is really good at creating compelling characters, but her direct impact on the world will be nothing but hardship and misery. "But she's a strong woman, and GRRM is also a feminist" you might argue. But Martin's feelings about women and their role in the world is extremely complex. We've read Meathouse Man. Martin has had a lifetime of heartache and rejection, and his anger towards women finds its way into his writing constantly. Intellectually he may believe he's a feminist, but the reality isn't that simple. Do we know that though? Because at this point in the story as well as overall thematically, they seem either a necessary evil or at the least "well they exist, so ffs use them right" in the vein of a not exactly Truman approach, but certainly a post WW2 America approach. At the least I will agree that he is saying feudalism is a fuck all way to govern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted July 13, 2018 Author Share Posted July 13, 2018 8 hours ago, Damon_Tor said: The largest point against Daenerys is that dragons can't be good or useful. GRRM confirmed that dragons are a WMD metaphor, which means we know because of his ideology that they have to make the world a worse place, a net loss. So, for that matter, is war itself. War is never the answer, but Daenerys brings war. So, yes, she's an antagonist, a "bad guy". She's sympathetic, because GRRM is really good at creating compelling characters, but her direct impact on the world will be nothing but hardship and misery. "But she's a strong woman, and GRRM is also a feminist" you might argue. But Martin's feelings about women and their role in the world is extremely complex. We've read Meathouse Man. Martin has had a lifetime of heartache and rejection, and his anger towards women finds its way into his writing constantly. Intellectually he may believe he's a feminist, but the reality isn't that simple. The main issue for westeros and essos is what happens after she dies The dragons will continue to breed and noone has the knowledge to control them anymore !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted July 13, 2018 Author Share Posted July 13, 2018 5 hours ago, Mordred said: I think you mistake who the sociopath is. Arya is the sociopath. There is nothing wrong with Dany's ambition to take back the kingdom that her family built. It is no different if a Stark wanted to take back Winterfell. Sure, the Targaryens lost but the rightful king escaped and was crowned, King Viserys. Daenerys is his heir. If you want to argue right of conquest taking away property then we need to consider that the Starks rebelled and lost. It doesn't matter how the Starks lost, they lost, and they lost badly. Eddard already gave a public confession to treason. Dany has as much claim to the seven kingdoms as the Starks have to Winterfell. Nothing wrong bar the sheer carnage it would unleash in trying to retake it ! A kingdom thats had a generation without targ rule and did just fine ,one danys never even set foot on yet will destroy all in her path to retake ...bottom line its not her home and never was The starks by contrast at least can point to winterfell as the place they grew up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Ice Spider Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Let's be clear on what a sociopath actually is. There are two main aspects to a sociopath, as I see it: Their inability to empathise others. This means that they don't really care when they hurt people, and can also lead to selfishness. Their reduced ability to experience positive emotions like happiness or joy. This leads to manipulate, torment and abuse people in order to eke out any joy. We don't see Dany failing to empathise with people. On the contrary, she empathises with the Lhazareen rape victims and the Ghiscari slaves. We also don't see her manipulate, torment, or abuse anyone, unlike Joffrey or Ramsay. Dany may not be a good person, but she is an empath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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