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R+L=J vs N+A=J (GRRM looses either way)


Euron III Greyjoy

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11 hours ago, Faera said:

R+L=J only seems "cliche" because the series is twenty years old now and the internet has meant the idea became more widespread that he could have ever anticipated when he first released AGoT. People don't necessarily realise now just how exciting it was "putting together" that Lyanna gave birth and Jon was her son - and in fact most people didn't. I did and it felt awesome. A lot of people invested time piecing together all the hints towards that to people now it seems "obvious". As I said, internet moved the goal posts. Fans getting attitude over the idea that was an actually well-crafted mystery on its conception because it has long since cracked... what can you do? Let them complain.

Amen to that. Cracking mysteries is awesome, and I bet a lot of the contending theories are just that - people wanting to experience that thrill for themselves, but since RLJ has already been established, they're twisting themselves into pretzels in order to feel like discoverers, too.

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18 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

It would be so funny to me if he just straight up trolled us and went some completely random direction.

If that happens, though, it won't have been random.

GRRM will explain it in such a way that the fans will realize they should have seen the truth, but somehow... despite years of best-effort analysis... they never did.

He tells us his method quite plainly in Vanity Fair:

Quote

You can’t just arbitrarily throw in twists and turns that make no sense. Things have to follow. You want the thing in the end where you say, "Oh my God, I didn’t see that coming, but there was foreshadowing; there was a hint of it here, there was a hint of it there. I should have seen it coming." And that, to me, is very satisfying. I look for that in the fiction that I read and I try to put it into my own fiction.

 

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23 hours ago, Megorova said:

Who - star crossed lovers - Lyanna and Rhaegar, or Dany and Jon? Because both possibilities are there, in the books

Lyanna and Rhaegar, I don't see the "star crossed lovers" cliche in the books at all that's something the show put in to make them look sympathetic (which failed) and to romanticise Jon in an Aragon like fashion. The issue is George is known for his dismantling of traditional tropes, not supporting them. There are some interesting metas on ASOIAF University which talk about R+L=J and how George wrote the characters. 

 

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9 hours ago, MostlyMoody said:

I never cease to be amazed by the amount of smugness surrounding Jon's parentage. So yes I imagine a lot of fans will get upset if the arrogance is any indication.

It's not smugness. Sorry, but no. It's the same on both sides.

Some readers are confident enough that they pieced it together (or read it/-aboutit) and are certain that Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen are Jon Snow's parents.

This group is thoroughly satisfied w/ the evidence, the clues make sense. For them, it fits better than any alternative. I'm one such. And I'll even add that the abomination "confirming" it means fuck all to me. As far as I'm concerned, confirmation will come in the books/from Martin directly. 

Others are certain R+L=J is a red herring, and then you get subgroups, where each supports a different combo of parents for Jon. 

But calling it smugness and arrogance is... being smug and arrogant yourself, isn't it? You are so sure Jon's parents aren't Lyanna and Rhaegar that you think any R+L=J supporters are smug and arrogant. 

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21 hours ago, MostlyMoody said:

I never cease to be amazed by the amount of smugness surrounding Jon's parentage. So yes I imagine a lot of fans will get upset if the arrogance is any indication.

It's not smugness, it's just something everyone's accepted to be the most plausible outcome for Jon's parentage. George made it a little too obvious in the first book but that was only because he intended the series to be a trilogy. 

Minus R+L=J is there any solid evidence of who else Jon's parents could be? 

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1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

It's not smugness, it's just something everyone's accepted to be the most plausible outcome for Jon's parentage. George made it a little too obvious in the first book but that was only because he intended the series to be a trilogy. 

Minus R+L=J is there any solid evidence of who else Jon's parents could be? 

Nowhere in my post did I claim R+L=J has no evidence or isn't true. I was pointing out the smugness and complete devotion in people believing one way or another when the writer clearly left it open ended with enough clues for several outcomes.

 

13 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

You are so sure Jon's parents aren't Lyanna and Rhaegar that you think any R+L=J supporters are smug and arrogant. 

lol

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1 hour ago, MostlyMoody said:

Nowhere in my post did I claim R+L=J has no evidence or isn't true. I was pointing out the smugness and complete devotion in People believing one way or another when the writer clearly left it open ended with enough clues for several outcomes.

 

Except that this isn't true. He has not left it open ended. When you look at the clues for Ned fathering Jon with Ashara you quickly realise it would be next to impossible. The timeline simply does not work and the information from Barristan in ADWD indicates that Ashara had a sexual relationship with Brandon Stark. Not Ned. This is consolidated by the information we have about Brandon himself from Barbrey and everything we learn of his nature from Cat. 

All the clues point us away from Ashara as Jon's mother. The Fisherman's daughter can not be true either as then Jon would be months older than Robb, Ned would have had no way to know he'd left her pregnant, and no reason in the world to keep her a secret. 

Wylla also can not be his mother as Ned never went to Dorne until the end of the war. And there is nothing in the text that implies she was in the Riverlands where Ned was when Jon was conceived. 

So No there are not clues for any one but Lyanna being Jon's Mum when we take into account the information from all 5 books. It isn't open. 

Being capable of processing the information from the books in a way that allows you to accurately discern the truth of the authors intent and refusing to acquiesce to inferior theories doesn't make you smug. It just means that you are intelligent and confident in your assessment of the text.  

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59 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 Being capable of processing the information from the books in a way that allows you to accurately discern the truth of the authors intent and refusing to acquiesce to inferior theories doesn't make you smug. It just means that you are intelligent and confident in your assessment of the text.  

I am sorry for ignoring the rest of your paragraphs, mostly because I don't want to get into an argument over Jon's parentage specifically, but this quote here kind of proves my point.

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28 minutes ago, MostlyMoody said:

I am sorry for ignoring the rest of your paragraphs, mostly because I don't want to get into an argument over Jon's parentage specifically, but this quote here kind of proves my point.

Er no. You are ignoring the part where I explain why the other theories are all inferior.  They simply are not possible. And refusing to pretend that they are doesn't make a person smug.  

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2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Being capable of processing the information from the books in a way that allows you to accurately discern the truth of the authors intent and refusing to acquiesce to inferior theories doesn't make you smug.

OK, in that case try to demonstrate your claim here:

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

the information from Barristan in ADWD indicates that Ashara had a sexual relationship with Brandon Stark. Not Ned.

Cite the canonical quote and then provide your evidence on this point. 

Never mind the implications for Jon's parents -- I'm just interested in seeing how you prove this claim that Barristan said Ashara slept with Brandon, not Ned.

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6 minutes ago, JNR said:

OK, in that case try to demonstrate your claim here:

Cite the canonical quote and then provide your evidence on this point. 

Never mind the implications for Jon's parents -- I'm just interested in seeing how you prove this claim that Barristan said Ashara slept with Brandon, not Ned.

I'll provide a post I made on another thread. 

Ashara's only purpose in the story is to provide a red herring for Jon's mother. She is only actually mentioned 6 times in the whole story, and each occasion is there to facilitate a smoke screen for R+L=J. And then finally to allow the reader to see through that smoke screen.  We've even had the beginning, the middle, and the end of her story already. 

 

mention #1:  AGOT Catelyn II

  Quote

They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

This sets Ashara up as a possible mother for Jon Snow. At this point we don't know anything about the timeline in order to understand how difficult it would have been for Ned to meet up with Ashara at the right time for Jon's conception. It's a basic introduction and she's introduced to us specifically in relation to Jon. 

mention #2: AGOT Eddard XII

  Quote

Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? 

Again this is in relation to her as a possible mother for Jon. Again we're in the first book the author is trying to establish the red herring in order to assist the concealment of Lyanna & Rhaegar as his parents.  And Again we don't yet know that Cersei was not in a position back in the early  280's to know what Ned's relationship was to Ashara and is going on pure rumour. 

mention #3: ACOK Catleyn VI

  Quote

They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be.

This is in relation to the Baratheon children all being Lannister Blonde. GRRM is using this as an opportunity to place Jon's parentage in proximity to other secret heritages. And simultaneously reminding us of Ashara as a possible mother for him, dangling that red herring. But it is also a clue that Jon isn't even Neds son, she talks about non of her sons taking after Ned she is talking on the back of a discussion about other children not being fathered by the man we were told fathered them, and implies that Ned has never been known to be connected to any woman other than this rumour about Ashara so really if it wasn't her then maybe that's because it wasn't Ned?  

mention #4: ASOS Bran II

  Quote

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

This one appears at first glance to be more fuel to the rumour and will for most readers continue the idea that Ashara was Jon's mother until ADWD when we learn a little more of Brandon Stark.  What GRRM is really showing us is that Ashara danced with Ned as a favour to Brandon, meaning she wanted him to like her, and that Ned was not interested in Ashara himself enough to ask her to dance. 

mention #5: ASOS Arya VIII

  Quote

He looked at her uncomfortably. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—"

Ned Dayne to Arya, this conversation appears on the surface to reinforce her as a candidate but when you think it through it does the opposite. He tells this garbled tale that really seems highly unlikely and which his very name belies. If Ned did the dirty of Ashara with Wyla would they name Ned Dayne for him? Would they fuck. 

mention #5: ASOS Arya VIII

  Quote

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. 

So here the author starts casting doubts upon the idea of Ashara as the mother here Harwyn tells us that the time line is all wrong for Jon to be their child. 

mention #6: ADWD The Kingmaker

  Quote

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Here in ADWD Barristan wraps it up for us. Ashara did do the deed with a Stark, but that Stark could not have been Ned when we consider Ned's relationship with Barristan the men got along well, they respected one another, laughed together even. That is not how Barristan would be with the man who had in his words dishonoured the woman he still all these years later loves. 

and finally not a mention of Ashara herself but one which ties together all the information we have so far and tells us who really had sex with Ashara Dayne. 

ADWD The Turncloak

  Quote

Someone has been down here stealing swords. Brandon's is gone as well."

"He would hate that." She pulled off her glove and touched his knee, pale flesh against dark stone. "Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cunt,' he used to say. And how he loved to use it. 'A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,' he told me once."

snip

Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

Here we learn that Brandon Stark took what he wanted from Maidens, even High born ones GRRM uses double entendre to inform us that Brandon liked seeing maidens blood on his cock and also that he would lie to get women into bed. Barbrey didn't know Brandon was betrothed when she gave him her maidenhead. But Brandon knew because Cat tells us they'd been betrothed when she was 12. 

AGOT Catelyn II

  Quote

 "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

 Which means he was betrothed to her at 14 we don't know how old he was when he took Barbreys maidenhead but younger than 14? well perhaps I suppose it is possible, but it is unlikely.  

 

All of this stands to show us that Ashara's story has been told it is over. We learnt that she had a baby but that the baby was conceived well before Jon would have been. That logistically them meeting up during the window surrounding his marriage to Cat; when Jon was conceived,  would have been extraordinarily difficult. That the rumours likely are a result of her having had sex with a Stark just not Ned, and that the man she did do it with is likely Brandon.  Everything anyone tells us about Brandon Stark implies he was exactly the kind of bloke who'd do that. He's all fire, a short tempered show off who doesn't consider others before acting.  Where as Barristan a person who unlike Cat, Cersei, Ned Dayne, or Harwyn was actually there and paying close attention to her likens himself to Mud, lamenting that women never chose mud over fire. Ned is pure mud.  And whilst you can argue Barristan is wrong that some like Mud, that really doesn't negate the point that to Barristan Ashara chose Fire over mud and Ned ain't fire. 

ETA: The realisation that it was Brandon Stark who Ashara slept with is also a plausible explanation for Ned Dayne's messed up story.

The way he refers to Ned as Lord Stark when he was sleeping with his aunt supposedly implies that Ned has been told that Ashara's lover was lord Stark, but at the time Ned was not destined to become the lord, he had an older brother. It would be easy for a child born many years after Brandons death though to not even know he existed especially when you consider the person telling him the story is Allyria who it seems is likely a child herself, given the delay of many years in her marriage to Beric. Ned too says they fell in love at Harrenhall, which coincides with Barristans story. 

  That truth clashing with the deliberate rumour started to protect Jon's identity that Wyla was his mother a rumour with some grains of truth, as it seems likely she was indeed his wet nurse, and so had nursed Jon. Explains Ned Dayne's odd story. 

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Something which I forgot to add in that post too is this little gem from Barristan. 

ADWD; The Kingbreaker

Quote

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

Barristan considers if grief for the man who had dishonoured her at Harrenhall was a contributing factor in her suicide. And Ned was very much alive when Ashara jumped to her death.  Brandon however was dead. 

 

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On 7/14/2018 at 8:53 AM, MostlyMoody said:

I never cease to be amazed by the amount of smugness surrounding Jon's parentage. So yes I imagine a lot of fans will get upset if the arrogance is any indication.

What you refer to as “smugness” or “arrogance”, I’d call fatigue and exasperation, which comes from having to debate the subject and discount alternate arguments ad nauseam. On this website alone, the pinned R+L=J thread is on its 165th iteration. 

While there may be merit in some of the debates that espouse alternates to R+L=J, most are just rehashing the same arguments that have been debated and discounted a thousand times before. 

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17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Brandon died before Jon was conceived. 

And if Brandon was the father, Ned would just say so. No need to hide that from Catelyn, since Brandon was dead and she was married to Ned and had born him a son. 

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1 minute ago, anjulibai said:

And if Brandon was the father, Ned would just say so. No need to hide that from Catelyn, since Brandon was dead and she was married to Ned and had born him a son. 

True, it might have been a bit embarrassing and hurt her pride but that is a million times better than the hurt and humiliation she felt believing Jon to be Ned's son conceived after her marriage to him.

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31 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I have a feeling Jon is the son of  Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne. Ned is too honorable to cheat. Ned is taking care of his brother’s kid

Brandon died more than a year before Jon's birth, so there's not enough time for him to be the father.

I honestly think R+L=J not being true makes Ned a scumbag, there's no threat to Jon's life so why wasn't he honest? And if Ashara was his mother why didn't he leave Jon with the Daynes? He would have been a lot happier in a region that doesn't ostracise bastards.

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3 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Jon would inherit winterfell. Not Catelyn’s kids

  1. Catelyn's children are trueborn Starks, Jon's a bastard Snow
  2. Jon's Lord Commander of the Night's Watch so he can't inherit even if he wanted to
  3. Rickon has the Manderlys behind him and Sansa has the Vale behind her
  4. "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa"
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4 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I doubt R+L=J is true. Remember George is just trolling the audience.

Trolling would be it actually turning out Arthur Dayne's the real father, Ned and Holand however just assumed it was Rhaegar :P

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