R+L=J vs N+A=J (GRRM looses either way)

[Megorova]

22 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Most of those are not options at all, between having no textual basis for some of those relationships, and timelines making some of them impossible anyways.

Brandon + Ashara - some supporters of this theory claim, that when Lyanna was kidnapped, and Brandon was on the way to Riverrun, he was with Ashara. That's when she became pregnant, in late 282, and gave birth to Jon 40 weeks later, in 283. So Jon is older than Robb, several months older. Though it was hard for Cat to tell which of them is older, and which is younger, because Robb was always bigger than Jon.

"He was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother’s coloring, the fair skin, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun."

"Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast."

Brandon + Lyanna - some supporters of this theory claim, that supposedly Brandon raped Lyanna, when the two of them were going to Riverrun, to attend Brandon's wedding (parallel to how Viserys tried to have a go at Dany, on the night prior her wedding with Drogo; Brandon wanted to have some fun, prior he will be wed to Cat). Lyanna escaped from him, and when a bit later, she has encountered prince Rhaegar, she asked for his protection. Rhaegar took her to Dorne, to Ashara Dayne, that also was previously raped by Brandon. They were going to ask justice from King Aerys, and press charges against Brandon. Brandon charged in Red Keep, demanding Rhaegar's head, because he wanted to prevent him from revealing Brandon's crimes.

Ned + Wylla - this possibility is based on three facts from the book: 1. Ned said to Robert, that Jon's mother is Wylla; 2. Based on what Robert said, it seems, that he saw Wylla years before. He knew since that time, that Jon is hers; 3. Edric Dayne said, that Wylla is Jon's mother.

Ned + fisherman's daughter - in late 282, when Jon was conceived, Ned was on his way from The Vale to Winterfell. He traveled thru The Bite, so that's when and where he could have met Jon's mother.

Lyanna + Mance Rayder - just yesterday I have read here another variation of this theory. Supposedly L+MR=J is a parallel to Bael the Bard. Some people even think, that Mance is Rhaegar. That he's using some sort of glamour, to change his looks. Etc.

[Bael's Bastard]

People claim a lot of crazy things, but there is no evidence for B+A=Jon or B+L=Jon or M+L=Jon. Wylla and fisherman's daughter things are almost certainly red herrings, like Ashara, having been explicitly stated by Eddard, Edric, and Godric in AGOT ASOS, and ADWD.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 7/15/2018 at 2:01 PM, Pikachu101 said:

1. Catelyn's children are trueborn Starks, Jon's a bastard Snow
2. Jon's Lord Commander of the Night's Watch so he can't inherit even if he wanted to
3. Rickon has the Manderlys behind him and Sansa has the Vale behind her
4. "Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa"

Rhaegar and Lyanna are very likely to have married before Jon was born, in which case he would not be a bastard, and would have legitimately been in the Stark line of succession, though obviously only after Ned and Catelyn's children. But as a legitimate female line Stark Catelyn would have had no need to fear Jon. It would be Jon's paternal ancestry that would have been a threat to not only Jon, but Ned and his family for housing him. 

[JNR]

On 7/16/2018 at 9:56 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I meant that the things he deduces from what little actual knowledge he has are, quite likely, wrong. I'm talking here specifically about Ashara having been dishonoured versus having had a fling w/ someone. 

Yes, that's a good example of how he jumps to conclusions without apparently having any real facts to support him.  (In that sense, Selmy is not just typical for Westeros the continent, but also Westeros the Web site.)

On 7/16/2018 at 9:56 AM, kissdbyfire said:

All the info available point towards Ashara having had a child. Whether mother or child are alive is immaterial here. This is info that comes from different sources, too.

The concept that she may have had a child can't be ruled out, but it's just speculation, and it doesn't comport very well with the facts we do have.

If she conceived a daughter at Harrenhal and bore that daughter stillborn, all out of wedlock... then it's very surprising no one except Selmy ever mentions or remembers this striking event, given all the times Ashara comes up. 

But if it's a rumor imagined after the fact, to explain the extraordinary way she apparently disappeared -- "Well, she had a stillborn baby and killed herself out of grief by jumping from the tower into sea, which is also why they never found her body" -- that would fit.

As to whom she slept with, that's tricky too.

If we think Ashara slept with Brandon, then it really makes no sense she would be "mad with grief" that he had been killed a full year later, after the Rebellion.  Being "mad with grief" suggests a much more recent death.

If we think Ashara slept with Ned, that they were in love, well -- that does fit the rumors that come up repeatedly, in multiple books from multiple people.   But we can all see the problems with that rumor.

Who saw Ashara sleep with anyone?  Nobody.  It reminds me a bit of the way in high school, a girl can get a reputation as being "easy," because of various rumors... and later it turns out she slept with zero people, period.  She was just straight-up slandered for years.

Still, I don't object to people believing she had sex or had a child; I just think it's obvious she might not have, too.  Without facts, we can only guess.

In fact, there's no way to show that Selmy even thinks the "man who dishonored her" is the same man as the Stark she "looked to" at Harrenhal.  I can imagine different scenarios that would fit the facts better.

For instance, suppose she slept with Oswell Whent at Harrenhal. Suppose he then discarded her, and she "looked to Stark" -- meaning Ned -- as a sympathetic shoulder to cry on.  Seems like the sort of thing the "quiet wolf" might do for a beautiful and sad noble woman.

Suppose this is why there are rumors Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal, as we hear from various people in various books.

Suppose Ashara really was "mad with grief" after Ned delivered Dawn over the man who "dishonored" her.  Suppose that was because Oswell Whent had only just been killed... as opposed to Brandon, who died a year earlier.

All that is obviously just speculation too, but it shows there are different ways to interpret what we've been told, and it's a story that doesn't involve a child, though it does involve sex.

[Megorova]

35 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I disagree that the first book made it obvious, and I find that most people read about it long after it had been deduced, rather than deduced it themselves, especially from the first book alone.

I suspected, that Jon is child of Lyanna and Rhaegar, after reading AGOT. And I became sure of this, after Dany's visit to the House of the Undying, in ACOK. We know from Ned, that - 1. Rhaegar has crowned Lyanna with laurel of blue winter roses; 2. When Lyanna was dying, she was helding in her hand petals of blue roses. And then, in one of Dany's visions, she saw blue flower on the wall of ice. I'm 100% sure, that this flower is Jon at The Wall. Dany saw Jon as blue flower, and blue winter roses are symbol of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's love. Their child is also a symbol of their love. So Dany's vision is an evidence of Jon's parentage.

[btfu806]

5 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

If it was a Red Herring, it would be explicitly stated in the text. Someone would say "Jon is actually the son of Lyanna, and maybe Rhaegar". But no one says that... GRRM has not shown us it, to then catch us out with something different. No one ever suggests Lyanna could be Jon's mother, just like no one ever suggests Ned isn't his father. The actual Red Herrings are Wylla, Ashara, and the Fisherman's daughter. They're the ones that are explicitly stated as being Jon's mother. 

R+L=J is not obvious to an isolated reader... it's obvious when we've all had decades to read and reread the books, and read fan theories, and collections of evidence in favour for the theory, and the like. 

It's a less obvious red herring then. It's more subtle. Maybe red herring is the wrong word then. Misdirection. I am not sure what to call it then... Obvious hints toward something and then switching it the last minute...whatever that is...

I agree that R+L=J isn't obvious but the text leading you to believe that Jon not being Neds was pretty obvious the first read through. Second read through with that in mind becomes pretty obvious the text wants you to believe that it's Lyanna's kid. I never put together the rhaegar thing though, that I had to get from the internet.  But I, personally, think the text strongly points you to someone + L =J. Just my opinion though..

[Lady Anna]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

I suspected, that Jon is child of Lyanna and Rhaegar, after reading AGOT. And I became sure of this, after Dany's visit to the House of the Undying, in ACOK. We know from Ned, that - 1. Rhaegar has crowned Lyanna with laurel of blue winter roses; 2. When Lyanna was dying, she was helding in her hand petals of blue roses. And then, in one of Dany's visions, she saw blue flower on the wall of ice. I'm 100% sure, that this flower is Jon at The Wall. Dany saw Jon as blue flower, and blue winter roses are symbol of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's love. Their child is also a symbol of their love. So Dany's vision is an evidence of Jon's parentage.

Yeah, I don't get people saying it's not easily detected in the first book when we just need to add up Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship - whatever it may have been - with Jon's status as a bastard of mysterious maternity. I genuinely believe a first-time reader would pick up on it, especially one who's read a few books before or one who's seen, like, movies.

[Megorova]

18 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

we just need to add up Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship - whatever it may have been - with Jon's status as a bastard of mysterious maternity

Add to this, that out of all Ned's children, Jon looks the most like Stark, and that him and Arya had the best relationship, and that people from their household said, that Arya looks like Lyanna, and that Jon has long face and grey eyes, same as Lyanna, and it becomes obvious, to what GRRM was hinting.

1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

It's a less obvious red herring then. It's more subtle. Maybe red herring is the wrong word then. Misdirection. I am not sure what to call it then... Obvious hints toward something and then switching it the last minute...whatever that is...

Tactical diversion

[btfu806]

53 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Add to this, that out of all Ned's children, Jon looks the most like Stark, and that him and Arya had the best relationship, and that people from their household said, that Arya looks like Lyanna, and that Jon has long face and grey eyes, same as Lyanna, and it becomes obvious, to what GRRM was hinting.

Tactical diversion

Hahaha I like it!

[Pikachu101]

8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

For all we know, Ashara didn’t want him.

Ashara committed suicide so it would it be up to her family really

7 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

But the idea of a romance, whether one sided or whatever the circumstances, is explicitly part of the Targaryen narrative in the books, as early as Daenerys's first chapter in AGOT.

Exactly, it's Targaryen supporters who push for the "star crossed lovers" narrative because it fits their agenda i.e. appealing to Dany. But whatever happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar I highly doubt it was a Romeo/Juliet tragedy. 

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Rhaegar and Lyanna are very likely to have married before Jon was born

Rhaegar was already married, believed Aegon was PTWP, you can't annul a consummated marriage, even if you wanted to only the king can grant one, there's no way to prove they were married, there's no way to even prove Jon is Rhaegar's son etc.

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

But as a legitimate female line Stark Catelyn would have had no need to fear Jon

Can the female line even inherit? Looking at the Stark family tree daughters and their children have been dismissed quite a number of times. 

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It would be Jon's paternal ancestry that would have been a threat to not only Jon, but Ned and his family for housing him

Which is why R+L=J is the only one that makes sense in context of Ned's character. Hiding your nephew's heritage and mother because he'd be in danger is understandable, what isn't understandable is outright refusing to tell your son about his mother or where he came from for no apparent reason. 

[Vhagar's Ghost]

The thing that gets me when people say that it's N+A = J or even B+A = J is how it fits into the grand scheme of things. To me it doesn't make sense story wise, that Jon, one of the main POV characters of the series, isn't special in some way. No offence but him being the son if Ned and Ashara isn't special, it isn't that important. But being the son if Rhaegar and Lyanna is, that changes everything, so from a story perspective it just makes more sense for R+L = J to be true. I don't see a single thing that supports any other parentage for Jon. That being said, on the really really unlikely off chance that Rhaegar and Lyanna are not his parents, I think his parents are Ned and Ashara. After R+L, N+A is the most likely option.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Vhagar's Ghost said:

The thing that gets me when people say that it's N+A = J or even B+A = J is how it fits into the grand scheme of things. To me it doesn't make sense story wise, that Jon, one of the main POV characters of the series, isn't special in some way. No offence but him being the son if Ned and Ashara isn't special, it isn't that important. But being the son if Rhaegar and Lyanna is, that changes everything, so from a story perspective it just makes more sense for R+L = J to be true. I don't see a single thing that supports any other parentage for Jon.

Very much true. There is no narrative payback for the alternative parentages, whereas being the son of R+L matters on many levels. It shatters everything about Jon's perception of himself, it makes him a political figure and a focal point of a prophecy, and we need to find out how he's going to deal with that all is . Plus, narratively, you have A Song of Ice and Fire, and as R+L, Jon is a union of the two very special houses symbolized by these elements. 

[anjulibai]

22 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

If it was a Red Herring, it would be explicitly stated in the text. Someone would say "Jon is actually the son of Lyanna, and maybe Rhaegar". But no one says that... GRRM has not shown us it, to then catch us out with something different. No one ever suggests Lyanna could be Jon's mother, just like no one ever suggests Ned isn't his father. The actual Red Herrings are Wylla, Ashara, and the Fisherman's daughter. They're the ones that are explicitly stated as being Jon's mother. 

R+L=J is not obvious to an isolated reader... it's obvious when we've all had decades to read and reread the books, and read fan theories, and collections of evidence in favour for the theory, and the like. 

I can't agree with that. I thought it was obvious Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar when I read AGOT. I'd never heard from R+L=J before - I took it from the textual evidence. 

I read about all these other theories, and I think, "y'all read the same books I did?"

[Cas Stark]

10 hours ago, anjulibai said:

I can't agree with that. I thought it was obvious Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar when I read AGOT. I'd never heard from R+L=J before - I took it from the textual evidence. 

I read about all these other theories, and I think, "y'all read the same books I did?"

It was obvious to me too, but not to everyone.  Many readers didn't catch those hints.

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It was obvious to me too, but not to everyone.  Many readers didn't catch those hints.

AGoT has enough clues for one to connect the dots, The Cat chapter where she thinks back on the one time she tried to grill Ned about it; Ned's "he is my blood" (paraphrasing?),'; etc. But most don't. Not most here but irl. Or should I say, my friends irl didn't pick up on it. All are casual readers, as I imagine the vast majority is. 

[Clegane'sPup]

23 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It was obvious to me too, but not to everyone.  Many readers didn't catch those hints.

Me, I had to google and ended up here. I didn't much appreciate martin's ambiguity and misdirection.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Me, I had to google and ended up here. I didn't much appreciate martin's ambiguity and misdirection.

But that's it. You googled it b/c you thought the marhs wasn't adding up. Same here. And w/ the same result, actually. Read GoT and had a proper bee in my bonet about the whole thing. Yrs later, rereading it, the same thing. Only the 2nd time I google, "Lyanna and Rhaegar Jon Snow and this was hit #1. 

The rest, as they say, is fake history!

 

[The Fattest Leech]

I seem to remember knowing straight away that Jon was not Eddard’s child. And then maybe on the first and half AGOT reread I think is when it started to click for me, or at least make me wonder greatly and fiend for more story (it’s been a long g time. Can’t remember for sure anymore). What happened is in the first reread I noticed the reveal pattern a little more overtly this time around, and then then I noticed right after we got the Eddard chapters about Jon and/or Lyanna, they were almost always followed by a Dany Chapter talking about Rhaegar in some way. I would read a chapter, get to some line about something, brain synapses would snap, and I would start flipping back and forth between chapters to double check my info. And then that’s when the highlighters and post-it flags notes started to happen 

[Clegane'sPup]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But that's it. You googled it b/c you thought the marhs wasn't adding up. Same here. And w/ the same result, actually. Read GoT and had a proper bee in my bonet about the whole thing. Yrs later, rereading it, the same thing. Only the 2nd time I google, "Lyanna and Rhaegar Jon Snow and this was hit #1. 

The rest, as they say, is fake history!

 

Ummmm, I dunna know. I was right pissed/angry/mad first time through that the wild goose chase -- A, W or the fisherman's daughter was Eddard's baby momma.

I just do not like how martin wrote it. I accept R& L.

[watchayakan]

On 7/17/2018 at 2:48 PM, Lady Anna said:

Yeah, I don't get people saying it's not easily detected in the first book when we just need to add up Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship - whatever it may have been - with Jon's status as a bastard of mysterious maternity. I genuinely believe a first-time reader would pick up on it, especially one who's read a few books before or one who's seen, like, movies.

This was the case for me. I read the books a few months after watching the first two seasons of the show, and shortly after finishing the first book I contemplated on it and realized R+L=J. The only other ideas I came up with independently before discovering the fandom was A+J=T and The Hound as the Gravedigger.