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EloImFizzy

R+L=J vs N+A=J (GRRM looses either way)

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First off I want to point out that this isn't a debate on which one is true, we already have plenty of those out there. This is just me pointing something out.

Regardless of whether GRRM has planned for Rhaegar and Lyanna, or Ned and Ashara to be Jon's parents, I really feel like either way he is going to get shit on by a considerate number of 'fans' no matter what the result is. If R+L=J is true then he is going to have people complain that it was way to simple and cliche, and if N+A=J wins then people are going to complain that he changed his answer because either he wanted to be different from the TV show, or he didn't like that fans guessed the right answer to quickly. 

This is kind of a nothing post, but I just figured it is kind of sad that GRRM is going to have to deal with complaints either way. He already gets shit on for not finishing TWoW, and now he's going to get shit on for this aswell. I can already see a number of ASOIAF theory YouTube channels making videos on it in the future. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

Regardless of whether GRRM has planned for Rhaegar and Lyanna, or Ned and Ashara to be Jon's parents, I really feel like either way he is going to get shit on by a considerate number of 'fans' no matter what the result is.

If they feel shit on because their pet theory, especially the one where they need to put their head into the sand to deny the obvious, is not what the author writes, then they are not a fan. Period. They are entitled crybabies and deserve the feces feeling they are experiencing.

10 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

If R+L=J is true then he is going to have people complain that it was way to simple and cliche, and if N+A=J wins then people are going to complain that he changed his answer because either he wanted to be different from the TV show, or he didn't like that fans guessed the right answer to quickly. 

The Author said he would not change the big plot reveals. A true fan would know this, as they would listen and pay attention to what the author says. 

10 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

This is kind of a nothing post, but I just figured it is kind of sad that GRRM is going to have to deal with complaints either way. He already gets shit on for not finishing TWoW, and now he's going to get shit on for this as well. I can already see a number of ASOIAF theory YouTube channels making videos on it in the future. 

He literally could not give two poops about fan complaints. If he did he would have worked harder to get winds out instead of pushing a decade and still not having it done.
Also, R+L=J is concrete at this point 
 

Edited by Dorian Martell's son
reasons

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8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He literally could not give two poops about fan complaints. If he did he would have worked harder to get winds out instead of pushing a decade and still not having it done.
Also, R+L=J is concrete at this point 
 

I do appreciate him for that, I have to admit its such a breathe of fresh air listening to how little fucks he gives. xD

Regardless if he cares or not though, I still think its really sad. I know it shouldn't annoy me as much as it does, but I really cant help but feel pissed off. 

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18 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Well he can make Jon the son of Brandon and Lyanna and anger both sides.

It would be so funny to me if he just straight up trolled us and went some completely random direction. Like Jon is Ned's son and his mother is some long lost Blackfyre or Brightflame descendant. xD

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Posted (edited)

Sure but that comes with the territory.

Heck, maybe he'll just pull the ultimate troll move and say it really was just Wylla all along! "Why you guy so upset? Eddard told Robert it was Wylla. Gawd!" :P 

R+L=J only seems "cliche" because the series is twenty years old now and the internet has meant the idea became more widespread that he could have ever anticipated when he first released AGoT. People don't necessarily realise now just how exciting it was "putting together" that Lyanna gave birth and Jon was her son - and in fact most people didn't. I did and it felt awesome. A lot of people invested time piecing together all the hints towards that to people now it seems "obvious". As I said, internet moved the goal posts. Fans getting attitude over the idea that was an actually well-crafted mystery on its conception because it has long since cracked... what can you do? Let them complain.

Meanwhile, the likelihood of N+A=J being true at its core principle - that Jon is just their bastard and always had been - is the more obvious answer to "who's Jon's mum?" based on what is, frankly, just blatantly told to the reader. It is the very first suggestion presented and the one GRRM keeps reminding us off by nebulously mentioning in ADwD that Ashara was dishonoured at Harrenhal by an unnamed Stark. So, it turning out to be that simple after all the aura of mystery around Jon's mother would probably frustrate people who thought there was more to it than that. Not least because RLJ is the significantly more accepted theory and treated as "basically fact" thanks to the [redacted thing we cannot mention]. So, that would stir the pot even more. But who cares? Let them complain.

Bottom line is you can't please everyone. When you create any form of art that includes and puzzle or mystery where readers have to speculate and work it out, there are going to be people who will guess correctly and some who don't. The internet has been around long enough now and I think GRRM "gets it" after the long career he's had anyway. The rudeness of people over the wait for TWoW isn't entirely comparable to this piece, though, because you have to believe that when he reveals it and people question him on it - he'll have the answer as to how it works out if there are any doubts.

Edited by Faera
Clarity!

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There are also other options, aside from R+L=J and N+A=J. There's also:

Brandon + Ashara

Brandon + Lyanna

Ned + Wylla

Ned + fisherman's daughter

Lyanna + Mance Rayder, etc.

Though R+L seems more likely, out of all of them, because that's where majority of clues, about Jon's parentage, point out to. 

Also, I think, that when GRRM will finally manage to publish TWOW, people will be too happy, to complain about minor stuff like that. Who cares, who were Jon's parents, if we don't even know, whether Jon is still alive, or will return into the plot in some other way (for example warged into Ghost) <- to find out the answear to this question, will be more important, than "?+?=J". 

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It won't bother me. This is GRRM's story, not mine, and not thirsty YouTubers trying to stay relevant. I believe in RLJ, but if a more prominent Dayne comes back in to the story through whichever Stark, well, that would also be awesome.

And GRRM is not changing his own story to avoid what the abomination chopped up and mixed around like condiment salad- all topping, no substance.

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13 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

I do appreciate him for that, I have to admit its such a breathe of fresh air listening to how little fucks he gives. xD

Regardless if he cares or not though, I still think its really sad. I know it shouldn't annoy me as much as it does, but I really cant help but feel pissed off. 

Well, Authors like David Brin and Neal Stephenson write on a timeline like it is a Job and tend to focus on one project at a time. Both wrote Trilogies that had a 3 year release timetable. All were great.  I had become used to that. GRRM is an entirely different beast  

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1 minute ago, Megorova said:

Also, I think, that when GRRM will finally manage to publish TWOW, people will be too happy, to complain about minor stuff like that. Who cares, who were Jon's parents, if we don't even know, whether Jon is still alive, or will return into the plot in some other way (for example warged into Ghost) <- to find out the answear to this question, will be more important, than "?+?=J". 

True dat! Sure, there are always going to be jerks out there who whine and complain anyway but ultimately the fans will have a wealth of material to help us piece it together. At present, we only have a few pieces of the puzzle because we don't have all the books - and our opinions and favoured theories may well change. 

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12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Also, I think, that when GRRM will finally manage to publish TWOW, people will be too happy, to complain about minor stuff like that. 

Maybe this is just my pessimistic nature kicking in but I think your underestimating how much of a cunt people can be. Sure maybe most people will be too happy that TWoW is finally released to care at first, but give it a week or two and there will be complaints left and right. 

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Posted (edited)

The problem with R+L is not cliché. So far every theory has problems and needs a proper explanation in further chapters. 

A bigger problem will be the indications for the already written text and the connection of Jon's parents to the rest of the story. Take R+L, it makes Cersei and her adore for Rhaegar and her hate for Jon pretty slapstick at times. And given that parent detection was a rather important theme in the first book, it even changes the tone of the books.

Edited by SirArthur

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54 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

If R+L=J is true then he is going to have people complain that it was way to simple and cliche

I don't think so, yes he made it a bit too obvious in the first book but that was only because asoiaf was intended to be a trilogy. 

There's an unanimous agreement that R+L=J is most likely true, what has fans debating is the purpose of Jon's existence. Personally I think Rhaegar expected a girl, whilst others believe he changed his mind about Aegon and decided Lyanna's son was the PTWP. That being said I'll be super pissed if he turns it into some kind of star crossed lovers bs like the show did.

I really don't want N+A=J to be true because then Ned's just a cruel asshole who made his son's life miserable for no reason. 

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53 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Take R+L, it makes Cersei and her adore for Rhaegar and her hate for Jon pretty slapstick at times.

Cersei didn't actually loved Rhaegar, and she doesn't really hate Jon.

She wanted to get rid of Jon, only because he is a Stark, and she hates all Starks. Maybe she thinks, that he can become a threat for Lannisters, if he will leave Night's Watch, and will become Robb V2.0. In that sense, that he will wage another war against Lannisters, and Cersei doesn't have now not Tywin, nor Joffrey, or even Tyrion or Jaime. So Jon, with his wildlings and northerners, can pose a more serious threat to her, than Robb ever did. Her hate for Jon has absolutely nothing to do with Jon himself.

Same as her love for Rhaegar, wasn't a real love. She just speculated, what kind of life would she have had, if she became Rhaegar's wife, instead of marrying with someone like Robert. She wanted to be Queen, and it didn't mattered to her much, to whom should she marry, to have what she wanted. So when/if Cersei will find out, that Jon is Rhaegar's son, her feelings towards him won't change. He will still be a threat. She won't be having any conflicting thoughts about Jon, just because of her imaginary love for Rhaegar's ghost.

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

That being said I'll be super pissed if he turns it into some kind of star crossed lovers bs like the show did.

Who - star crossed lovers - Lyanna and Rhaegar, or Dany and Jon? Because both possibilities are there, in the books. Lyanna, clutching whithered petals of blue roses, when she died. R+L - fullfilment of Pact of Ice & Fire - agreement between Starks and Targaryens, from the Dance of the Dragons. Blue flower on the wall of ice, in Dany's prophetic vision, in trinity bride of fire, which is probably a hint towards Dany's third husband - Jon, who is Azor Ahai, wielder of Lightbringer, and saviour, sent by fire god R'hllor.

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2 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

First off I want to point out that this isn't a debate on which one is true, we already have plenty of those out there. This is just me pointing something out.

Regardless of whether GRRM has planned for Rhaegar and Lyanna, or Ned and Ashara to be Jon's parents, I really feel like either way he is going to get shit on by a considerate number of 'fans' no matter what the result is. If R+L=J is true then he is going to have people complain that it was way to simple and cliche, and if N+A=J wins then people are going to complain that he changed his answer because either he wanted to be different from the TV show, or he didn't like that fans guessed the right answer to quickly. 

I am not debating anything, just gonna state here that R+L=J, end of story. So, about the considerable amount of fans that will be complaining... I don't think that number is as considerable as all that tbh. There's some posting here and there, but the vast majority of readers, who are casual readers, don't even pick up on Jon not really being Ned's and don't have the faintest who Ashara is. 

Also, there's no way in hell he's gonna change whatever, be it b/c of the abomination or b/c people "guessed" correctly. And seriously, it's not like those who got it right - that Jon is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Taegaryen, just to be perfectly clear! - just guessed it out of dumb luck. Martin wants the reader to figure things out. He just doesn't want to give away (thank the Old Gods! - and no, not "the New" as well. Fuck the New Gods, they suck). But the clues and hints are.all there. Interspersed w/ small (and not so small) red herrings. Such as Ashara Dayne and her "dishonouring", and she turning "To Stark".

I didn't mean to go OT here, I'm just explaining why I don't think Martin will "get shit for it", and why I don't think he should get shit for it. :)

 

2 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

This is kind of a nothing post, but I just figured it is kind of sad that GRRM is going to have to deal with complaints either way.

As I said above, I really don't see that happening at all.

2 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

He already gets shit on for not finishing TWoW, and now he's going to get shit on for this aswell. I can already see a number of ASOIAF theory YouTube channels making videos on it in the future. 

I can already see a number of new ASoIaF YouTube channels (riding the ASoIaF gravy train) - full stop. :lol:

 

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3 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

First off I want to point out that this isn't a debate on which one is true, we already have plenty of those out there. This is just me pointing something out.

Sharing ones ideas can be right risky on this site.

3 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

Regardless of whether GRRM has planned for Rhaegar and Lyanna, or Ned and Ashara to be Jon's parents, I really feel like either way he is going to get shit on by a considerate number of 'fans' no matter what the result is. If R+L=J is true then he is going to have people complain that it was way to simple and cliche, and if N+A=J wins then people are going to complain that he changed his answer because either he wanted to be different from the TV show, or he didn't like that fans guessed the right answer to quickly. 

Yes, I agree martin will get a shite load of feedback. All martin can do is write his story.  The controversial thing in your post is Jon Snow's parentage. I accept the R & L. If Jon Snow's parentage turns out to be the N & A after all these years of bickering it would be meh, okay. Let's get on with it.

3 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

This is kind of a nothing post, but I just figured it is kind of sad that GRRM is going to have to deal with complaints either way. He already gets shit on for not finishing TWoW, and now he's going to get shit on for this aswell. I can already see a number of ASOIAF theory YouTube channels making videos on it in the future. 

Actually, martin probably already knows he is going to get criticisms from fans. Does he care? Yea, probably.is is going to change the story, no. He a grown ass man and he knows the business.

Youtube channels with people flapping their jaws are only relevant to those who choose to watch. Personally I like Rhett and Link. I watch and I think --- why am I watching this --- but I watch because sometimes it is actually comical.

Bottom line, all martin can do is write the saga. People are going to like it or not. I don't like the idea of Sandor hooking up with Sansa. I have said if Ghost dies I will throw the book out the door.  I'm still gonna read the next book, WoW. I am not nor have I bought any extra material.

Do you think that martin is worried about some social media twitter storm? By the old gods and the new I sincerely hope not.

 

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I think the biggest problem here is the idea that r+l=j is "the twist". I think we were always supposed to figure it out. I have faith that there's enough that's genuinely unexpected coming to mitigate any anticlimax which might be felt from any revelation regarding Jon's parentage.

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24 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Or everyone can just be happy the series was finished. That will be a win for GRRM no matter how you look at it, IMO.

:thumbsup: I will accept an ending however martin delivers it. Caveat is, I'm gonna get an ending via tv. I'll still read the next installment of martin's saga when it is released, but I am not going to buy extra material.

 

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