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Was Poor, Sweet Joff a good king?


Brianstorm

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He certainly would not have put up with the High Septon and would have tried to get a stooge into that position, however that could lead to it's own problems. That said. even if he wasn't meant to be a long term king, getting an heir from Margaery would've been optimal vs the Purple Wedding happening when it did.

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He was in no way, shape, form, or fashion a "good king". However he wouldn't have put up with the faith arresting his wife he would have  pulled the  Sept down probably causing the faith to execute his wife, but they wouldn't have held her or his mother.

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No, he was a terrible King, and would have grown to be an outright monstrous King. At 12-13 years old, he was taking pleasure in crossbowing starving peasants, hammering metal into men's heads and catapulting them across a river, and having his betrothed (a 13 year old girl) stripped and beaten. He gets a cowpat thrown at him, and demands his bodyguards cut through dozens of innocent starving peasants to get to the culprit, ignoring that this would put his mother and the rest of his party in mortal danger. He sends the Catspaw to kill Bran, not out of any concern for Bran, but because he wants a pat on the head from his father. He tortured animals, tortured his siblings, tortured his betrothed, and had just gotten started down the path of torturing his subjects before he died. Oh, and he promised to rape Sansa on the night of her wedding to his uncle. These are the things he did when he was 12-13.... I can only imagine what atrocities he'd have ordered as he grew older. 

Yes, he was a young character. But, unlike all of our other young characters, he didn't show any sort of improvement in character or behaviour, showed no maturation and learning... He was not on a trajectory to see the errors of his ways and improve as a person. In fact, just before he died he was mocking his uncle for his disability and using his position as King to bully him into subservience.   

He may not have put up with the High Septon, but that isn't necessarily a good thing, because he would have been monstrous in how he dealt with him... Like, blood soaking the stones of the Great Sept of Baelor monstrous, if he left the Sept standing. Joffrey was another Aerys II, but without the stable, early years. He was another Maegor the Cruel, without the martial prowess. If Jon Snow got one thing right in the whole ASoIaF saga, it was when he said... "Joffrey is truly a little shit." 

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No, but then neither was he a bad king, he was twelve and underage, he held no real power, his regents ruled for him. 

Historically it could go either way, he could be celebrated for winning the war of the five kings or he could be seen as an abomination. 

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13 hours ago, Brianstorm said:

He certainly would not have put up with the High Septon and would have tried to get a stooge into that position, however that could lead to it's own problems. That said. even if he wasn't meant to be a long term king, getting an heir from Margaery would've been optimal vs the Purple Wedding happening when it did.

Joff was stern and he lacked compassion.  Qualities that can serve him poorly in a lot of circumstances but would have worked fine in some cases.  A cruel but competent king is better than a soft incompetent king.  From the point of view of keeping order and the peace, Joff probably would be better than somebody like Rhaegar and Aegon V.  Joff will be a Tywin, minus 30 IQ points.   

But the High Sparrow is a tricky matter.  Joff will use force of arms and he would lose to the sparrows.  So maybe Joff would be better advised to avoid attacking the sparrows directly.

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2 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

No, he was a terrible King, and would have grown to be an outright monstrous King.

This is a really excellent summary. I agree completely.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, but then neither was he a bad king, he was twelve and underage, he held no real power, his regents ruled for him. 

He was, in fact, a bad king (see Unacosamedarisa). What do you mean, "he held no real power"? His mother, the Queen Mother/Regent who was old enough to know better, GAVE him that power by insisting anything Joffrey said, went. Lisa Arryn did the same with sickly little "Sweetrobin." The "adults in the room" deferred to the child Joffrey, who they named King, and therefore he WAS king, with all the powers that entailed. True, he had no interest in governmental affairs and let them run wild, but when Joffrey decreed punishments and gratuitous tortures, he got them. His brief reign was a reign of terror.

Note: I laughed when Joffrey cut himself on the Iron Throne when angrily pronouncing death sentences and then screamed for his mommy. "Even the Throne rejects him!" the doomed man called out. (heh, heh. indeed.)

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5 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

A cruel but competent king is better than a soft incompetent king.

Joff was both cruel AND incompetent. He could barely read. He had no interest in affairs of government, only satisfying his basest urges (where did he become such a bully, anyway?) He drank more than he could handle and became much worse for it. His story track shows zero interest in improving himself or study, so the idea that with age, he would "become competent" is basically an impossibility.

And where do you get that Rhaegar would have been soft and incompetent? We know next to nothing about Rhaegar (yet), but everyone who met him had a high opinion of him. (Except Robert Baratheon, who actually WAS a "soft and incompetent" king.)

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48 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

He is a horrible king, and one of the worst to ever plague Westeros.

I agree. Just as the best they could say for Joffrey Lannister "Baratheon" in Dorne was that he was comely and tall for his age, the best we can say about his reign was that it was short.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

 

He was, in fact, a bad king (see Unacosamedarisa).

That person's point is about what he may have became, not what he was. 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

 

What do you mean, "he held no real power"?

He was 12, he held no real power, he was forced to have Tyrion, an uncle he despises, as the Hand and on the Small council.

He was not running the government, he played little part in it and when he got angry the Hand, Tywin, sent him to bed. 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

His mother, the Queen Mother/Regent who was old enough to know better, GAVE him that power by insisting anything Joffrey said, went.

some examples would be handy. 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Lisa Arryn did the same with sickly little "Sweetrobin."

No, that is incorrect and I know for a fact that you can't give 5 examples. 

Plus you are confusing ruling with being placated, Joffrey was getting his own way while Robert was still alive, it does not mean he was ruling. 

Both Joffrey and Robin have regents, they are too young to rule. 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

 

The "adults in the room" deferred to the child Joffrey, who they named King, and therefore he WAS king, with all the powers that entailed.

Except it does not, you really need to educate yourself on what a Regent is.  Joffrey could not rule as king till he came of age. 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

True, he had no interest in governmental affairs and let them run wild, but when Joffrey decreed punishments and gratuitous tortures, he got them. His brief reign was a reign of terror.

For Sansa, sure, but not really for the majority of his people. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

That person's point is about what he may have became, not what he was.

Except, the majority of my post was pointing out, you know, things Joffrey had done, showing the type of King he was. And then went on to say what sort of King he'd (likely) become. 

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Joffrey could not rule as king till he came of age. 

A nice thought, but not a reality. Otherwise, why did no one stop Ilyn Payne taking Ned Stark's head? 

Quote

For Sansa, sure, but not really for the majority of his people. 

And the peasants he had killed sparking the riot? The peasants he crossbowed himself when they came asking for food? The singer whose tongue he had pulled out for singing an insulting song? 

George himself has said, in interviews, that Joffrey is "monstrous", and compared his murder to the hypothetical killing of Hitler. Throughout the books we're shown Joffrey's trajectory quite clearly... he goes from killing animals, to having his servants kill people, to killing people himself. His only redeeming feature is how good-looking he is... and that is part of GRRM's subversion of pretty golden people = hero, black dark garbed people = villains trope. Joffrey showed nothing that would indicate he was, or would become, a good King, and instead demonstrated, repeatedly, what a monster he was, and would be. 

 

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15 hours ago, Brianstorm said:

He certainly would not have put up with the High Septon and would have tried to get a stooge into that position, however that could lead to it's own problems. That said. even if he wasn't meant to be a long term king, getting an heir from Margaery would've been optimal vs the Purple Wedding happening when it did.

no. an heir would not be optimal. The story was written without one. An heir would be needless in the plot 

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15 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Except, the majority of my post was pointing out, you know, things Joffrey had done, showing the type of King he was. And then went on to say what sort of King he'd (likely) become. 

no, the majority of your post were about events before done while Robert was still alive and Joffrey was the prince. 

15 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

A nice thought, but not a reality. Otherwise, why did no one stop Ilyn Payne taking Ned Stark's head? 

That is the only decision he made as King, and only because Cersei and the council were convinced he was going to spare him like they decided. Once the crowd agreed and Joffrey made his decision it was too late but they did not make that mistake again. 

15 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

And the peasants he had killed sparking the riot?

You don't think the vast majority of medieval kings would not have done the same? 

15 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

The peasants he crossbowed himself when they came asking for food?

wow, you are being a little disingenuous here. it was a mob and given a peasant mob had attacked the royal party, killing some, raping others, then dispersing it was a priority. 

what do you imagine Robert, either Aerys, Aegon I, II, III, IV,  Viserys I & II, Maegor would have done in the same situation? 

15 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

The singer whose tongue he had pulled out for singing an insulting song? 

Again, standard behavior for medieval kings. 

15 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

George himself has said, in interviews, that Joffrey is "monstrous", and compared his murder to the hypothetical killing of Hitler.

no, not quite. 

GRRM: The reason I bring this up is because that's an interesting question of redemption. That's more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? ... That's what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/22177-george-r-r-martin-compares-jaime-lannister-to-woody-allen-joffrey-to-hitler

 

GRRM has constantly played down how bad Joffrey is in comparison to how the fandom think of him

GRRM; When asked who his favorite character is, he answered, “all of them” and even defended Joffrey at a Q&A session at Northwestern. “You don’t want to give a 13-year-old absolute power,” Martin said. “I could easily see myself making some school bullies fight to the death if I’d been king at that age. It would have been amazing!”

http://watchersonthewall.com/grrm-discusses-asoiaf-and-defends-joffrey-a-little-and-a-got-filming-location-app-launches/

GRRM: Yeah. I think Joffrey is a classic 13-year-old bully. Do you know many 13-year-old kids you’d like to give absolute power to? There’s a cruelty in children, especially children of a certain age, that you see in junior high and middle school. We don’t want 13-year-old bullies to be put to death. We probably do when we’re their 13-year-old victims, but they grow up and most of them grow out of it, and sometimes people do regret their actions. But Joffrey will never get that chance, so we don’t know what he would have become. Probably nothing good, but still…

http://www.ew.com/article/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed

So lets not jump into Godwin's law just yet, the crimes of the 12 year old Joffrey are mild compared to Hitler. 

 

15 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

Throughout the books we're shown Joffrey's trajectory quite clearly...

Sure, but this discussion is not about what could have been, it is about him as king. 

15 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

he goes from killing animals,

they all kill animals, it is a medieval age, his father sings and boasts about the animals he has killed, it is not surprising that the 4/5 year old Joffrey did not know why killing wild boar was excellent but killing stray cats was worthy of a beating that could have killed him. Shitty parenting. 

15 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

to having his servants kill people,

yeah, you are not going to be able to name many medieval kings who did not do this. 

15 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

to killing people himself. His only redeeming feature is how good-looking he is...

Honestly, I think you are confusing the argument, we are not talking about Joffrey the person, we are talking about him as a king. 

Many shitty people can make effective, even excellent rulers, many brilliant enlightened people can make awful rulers. 

 

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He was 12, he held no real power, he was forced to have Tyrion, an uncle he despises, as the Hand and on the Small council. 

He was not running the government, he played little part in it and when he got angry the Hand, Tywin, sent him to bed. 

Joffrey, once king and accompanied by his Kings Guard, exercised real and brutal "power." He didn't start the beatings of his betrothed until after he was king - obviously. Joffrey "ruled" unchecked during the period from Robert Baratheon's death until his nameday (12th? 13th?), when Uncle Tyrion and his Savage Horde arrived at the Red Keep. In this brief period (you wanted examples, right?)

  • He (in rare coordination with the Queen Mother) ordered all Stark people to be killed and the  Starks themselves taken prisoner.
  • He replaced the only decent knight on his Kings guard with a man that not even his family llikes.
  • He ordered the execution of Lord Hand Eddard Stark, which got the War of the Five Kings going in earnest. Nobody contradicted him; nobody hesitated an instant in carrying out his sentence.
  • His frequent beatings of Sansa got underway. You may prefer to characterize this as "domestic violence" and thus excuse it, but few women would minimize its importance.
  • He ordered, then withdrew at Sansa's begging, that Dontos Hollard be "wineboarded", basically drowned in wine, because the knight was drunk and unprepared for his joust.
  • Sansa notes at that time that Joffrey was quite fond of making men fight to the death, which would confirm that he's done this in her presence at least once earlier.

So then Tyrion takes over as Acting Hand, much to Joffery's and Cersei's disgust. Although, in your estimation, Joffrey is totally locked down and out of power, he still

  • practices at the crossbow by killing caged rabbits - poorly. Sansa sees an unfortunate cat, pinned by a bolt and left to die "noisily"; one can imagine the rabbits fare no better. Note that cruelty to animals (NOT "hunting", I'm talking deliberate cruelty) is an indicator of similar attitudes toward people; it is known. And in fact, later Joffrey shows off his crossbow "skills" by shooting over the wall into a crowd of people begging for food.
  • enjoys fun&games while his army, king's guard, and city watch are fighting and dying on the Blackwater Rush, by having antlers nailed to the heads of prisoners designated as "traitors", then giving them a trebuchet ride over the walls. His uncle Tyrion has to beg to get to use the trebs for military purposes.

After the battle, when Lord Tywin has returned to "take control", Joffrey is admittedly more restrained. But re-read, if you can, his behavior during his wedding. Nobody takes the young boy to task for his boorishness, cruelty, overreaction, or drunkenness. They all just sit around uncomfortably and try to look away. Because, as you keep insisting otherwise, they regard him as The King.

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20 minutes ago, zandru said:

Joffrey, once king and accompanied by his Kings Guard, exercised real and brutal "power."

no, his mother, Tywin, Tyrion and council ruled. The only decision he ordered was Ned, a huge fuck up that Tywin was not going to allow to happen again. 

20 minutes ago, zandru said:

 

He didn't start the beatings of his betrothed until after he was king - obviously.

well yeah, you were paying attention to the context, right? 

Sansa's father labelled him a bastard, a death penalty at that status and Sansa'ss brother raised an army to deal with him. 

Joffrey was a little shit, but lets not pretend that there were not actual reasons he started to hate Sansa. He didn't suddenly get power and decide to hurt her, the Starks wanted him dead and this was the only petty way he could get back at them. 

20 minutes ago, zandru said:

 

Joffrey "ruled" unchecked during the period from Robert Baratheon's death until his nameday

no, he did not. It is Cersei who was ruling, Joffrey was not present at the small council meetings nor was it Joffrey's decision to make Tywin the Hand or Tyrion the stand in hand. 

20 minutes ago, zandru said:

 

(12th? 13th?), when Uncle Tyrion and his Savage Horde arrived at the Red Keep. In this brief period (you wanted examples, right?)

yes please. 

20 minutes ago, zandru said:
  • He (in rare coordination with the Queen Mother) ordered all Stark people to be killed and the  Starks themselves taken prisoner.

Except Varys and Ned makes it more than clear who was in charge

"The queen will not kill me," Ned said. His head swam; the wine was strong, and it had been too long since he'd eaten. "Cat . . . Cat holds her brother . . . "

 "The wrong brother," Varys sighed. "And lost to her, in any case. She let the Imp slip through her fingers. I expect he is dead by now, somewhere in the Mountains of the Moon."

 "If that is true, slit my throat and have done with it." He was dizzy from the wine, tired and heartsick.

 "Your blood is the last thing I desire."

 Ned frowned. "When they slaughtered my guard, you stood beside the queen and watched, and said not a word."

Throughout the conversation Ned and Varys talk about the person incontrol, the Regent as opposed to the underage king. 

 

 "You want me to serve the woman who murdered my king, butchered my men, and crippled my son?" Ned's voice was thick with disbelief.

 "I want you to serve the realm," Varys said. "Tell the queen that you will confess your vile treason, command your son to lay down his sword, and proclaim Joffrey as the true heir. Offer to denounce Stannis and Renly as faithless usurpers. Our green-eyed lioness knows you are a man of honor. If you will give her the peace she needs and the time to deal with Stannis, and pledge to carry her secret to your grave, I believe she will allow you to take the black and live out the rest of your days on the Wall

and Sansa makes it clear who is in control

A herald's voice rang out. "All hail His Grace, Joffrey of the Houses Baratheon and Lannister, the First of his Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. All hail his lady mother, Cersei of House Lannister, Queen Regent, Light of the West, and Protector of the Realm."

and from the Arya chapter we know precisely who ordered the Stark men to be dealt with

"Help me saddle a horse," Arya pleaded, reaching back into the chest, groping for Needle. "My father's the Hand of the King, he'll reward you."

 "Father's dead," the boy said. He shuffled toward her. "It's the queen who'll be rewarding me. Come here, girl."

 "Stay away!" Her fingers closed around Needle's hilt.

Infact Joffrey's orders are actually ignored in the throne room given he is shouting for Ned to be killed and none of his men do so given Cersei wants Ned alive. 

 

20 minutes ago, zandru said:
  • He replaced the only decent knight on his Kings guard with a man that not even his family llikes.

except Cersei didn't think him worth keeping. This is not a case of Joffrey over ruling his mother, but that Cerssei was too dim to see how important he was. 

"Was it Joffrey's wish to dismiss Ser Barristan Selmy from his Kingsguard too?"
Cersei sighed. "Joff wanted someone to blame for Robert's death. Varys suggested Ser Barristan. Why not? It gave Jaime command of the Kingsguard and a seat on the small council, and allowed Joff to throw a bone to his dog. 
 
this was more placating, rather than actual ruling. 
20 minutes ago, zandru said:

 

  • He ordered the execution of Lord Hand Eddard Stark, which got the War of the Five Kings going in earnest. Nobody contradicted him; nobody hesitated an instant in carrying out his sentence.

he certainly did, but I'd already given that example, seems you are a bit desperate of legitimacy for you argument if you need to repeat something that neither of us disagree on. 

20 minutes ago, zandru said:
  • His frequent beatings of Sansa got underway. You may prefer to characterize this as "domestic violence" and thus excuse it, but few women would minimize its importance.

oh fuck right off, where in any of my posts have I supported domestic violence and what exactly has this to do with being a king? you think only kings were violent to women in medieval times. 

trying to suggest someone supports domestic abuse in a bid to win a internet argument is pretty messed up.

20 minutes ago, zandru said:
  • He ordered, then withdrew at Sansa's begging, that Dontos Hollard be "wineboarded", basically drowned in wine, because the knight was drunk and unprepared for his joust.

again, nothing about this is ruling, he could have tortured both Dontos and Sansa if Cersei was officially the Queen rather than regent. 

what you are giving examples of is Joffrey the shitty human being, not so much evidence of him ruling Westeros. 

20 minutes ago, zandru said:
  • Sansa notes at that time that Joffrey was quite fond of making men fight to the death, which would confirm that he's done this in her presence at least once earlier.

you've lost me, maybe suggesting that I support domestic abuse is the best argument you've got. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

you've lost me,

No, you've lost me. Your arguments seem to be legalistic and even hypothetical. I gave cases where Joffrey's orders were followed, because he was regarded as the king. You split hairs with references to the small council. Heck, under your logic, Robert Baratheon was never "king", either.

It's the weekend and I have better things to do. Take this as you will (well, you will and don't actually require my permission.)

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6 minutes ago, zandru said:

No, you've lost me. Your arguments seem to be legalistic and even hypothetical. I gave cases where Joffrey's orders were followed, because he was regarded as the king. You split hairs with references to the small council. Heck, under your logic, Robert Baratheon was never "king", either.

 

stop being ridiculous, I pointed out that Joffrey was under age and had a regent to rule for him. Underage kings like Joffrey, Tommen and Aegon III don't technically rule, not until they come of age, their regents rule in their place. 

Ned was supposed to rule for Joffrey

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard examined the paper. "King Robert's seal, and unbroken." He opened the letter and read. "Lord Eddard Stark is herein named Protector of the Realm, to rule as regent until the heir comes of age."

and had happened in the past

The period of Aegon's regency—which stretched from 131 AC, when he inherited the throne, to 136 AC when he came of age

Sorry that such complicated terms confuse you.. 

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6 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Joff was pretty passionate in regards to advancing crossbow technology. Had he lived this might have been a pretty important issue when dealing with Daenerys and her dragons. As silly as that might sound. 

I actually don’t think this is that silly an idea. George has said he wrote Cersei and Dany as parallels of each other, and this crossbow idea is rather interesting. Both Dany and Cersei created their three babies by a “self pollination” of sorts, and Joffrey is the equivalent to Drogon in personality, so maybe the bolt idea does carry over as well??? 

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