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Was Poor, Sweet Joff a good king?


Brianstorm

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9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

stop being ridiculous, I pointed out that Joffrey was under age and had a regent to rule for him. Underage kings like Joffrey, Tommen and Aegon III don't technically rule, not until they come of age, their regents rule in their place. 

Ned was supposed to rule for Joffrey

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard examined the paper. "King Robert's seal, and unbroken." He opened the letter and read. "Lord Eddard Stark is herein named Protector of the Realm, to rule as regent until the heir comes of age."

and had happened in the past

The period of Aegon's regency—which stretched from 131 AC, when he inherited the throne, to 136 AC when he came of age

Sorry that such complicated terms confuse you.. 

I really don't get the confusion here in regards to Joffery not actually having real power-hell I don't even think Joffery truly thinks he has real power-if he did does anyone actually think he wouldn't have ordered the  execution of Tyrion? Or listened to his treacherous grandfather? Tyrion beat and threatened Joffery on multiple occasions. 

I don't know about whether or not Joffery would be a good or bad king. 

I don't think he'd grow to be a good person, but honestly that's not the same thing. Good kings can be sociopaths; they can be murderers, sadists, rapists etc; so long as they they don't over indulge in their negative traits to the the point where cant do their job. 

Joffery was just 13. 

Would Joffery be able to develop enough by the time he reaches manhood to where he could moderate. 

Meh.  Possibly. 

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14 hours ago, zandru said:

After the battle, when Lord Tywin has returned to "take control", Joffrey is admittedly more restrained. But re-read, if you can, his behavior during his wedding. Nobody takes the young boy to task for his boorishness, cruelty, overreaction, or drunkenness. They all just sit around uncomfortably and try to look away. Because, as you keep insisting otherwise, they regard him as The King.

Because actually getting in a confrontation about this would look worse? And Joffery seems to know this I mean it's for the same reason Catelyn doesn't send Robb in AGOT-doing so would make him a laughing stock, which would be detrimental to his ability to ever lead the north-but for all intents and purposes Catelyn before Robb is crowned king can send Robb home.  If Jofgery actually had real power, he wouldn't let Tyrion go so lightly-he would have his uncle executed for assaulting and threatening him outright, not just shame Tyrion by having him play servent and pouring a drink on the guy.  There's a clear limit to what he can actually do before he reaches manhood that even he recognizes

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16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Joffrey was a little shit, but lets not pretend that there were not actual reasons he started to hate Sansa. He didn't suddenly get power and decide to hurt her, the Starks wanted him dead and this was the only petty way he could get back at them.

And clear evidence of the type of person Joffrey was, and would be. Beating an innocent 13 year old girl for what her brother does is not what a good person does. 

It doesn't matter what title Joffrey had when he did what, whether he was Prince or King at the time. Joffrey performed no decent actions in his life, and instead we're told and shown the terrible things he did. There is nothing to argue that he was a good King, that he did good things, or that he would do good things in the future. When he did exercise power, he did bad things. When he eventually got more power, he would do more bad things. This is supported by the text, and Joffrey's ever increasing cruelty.

 

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28 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

And clear evidence of the type of person Joffrey was, and would be. Beating an innocent 13 year old girl for what her brother does is not what a good person does. 

Possibly so, though I'm of the opinion that people can change, certainly a 12/13 year old boy can. 

But you are missing a fundamental point of OP's thread, it is not about a Joffrey the person, it is about Joffrey the king. There have been many awful people who have made excellent rulers and by the same token many good people who made awful rulers; this is not a debate on Joffrey's character. 

GRRM: I’ve read a lot of history about feudal history and Roman history and so forth, about politics in those days. I follow contemporary politics. And you know, what strikes me is that these issues are horrid. And a lot of fantasy makes it seem simply: a good man will be a good king. Well, a good man is not always a good king. And a bad man is not always a bad king. You know, it’s much more complicated than that. It’s you know, I look at in my lifetime, I think probably the best man to serve as President in my lifetime was Jimmy Carter. As a human being, the best human being, but he was not a good President. He was not. General goodness did not automatically make flowers bloom.

 

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It doesn't matter what title Joffrey had when he did what, whether he was Prince or King at the time. Joffrey performed no decent actions in his life,

well as king he did, he won the war of the five kings and his 'reign' brought peace to the majority of the realm. That is what rulers are judged on, not how they are as human beings to the people closest to them. 

Now my opinion is that as an underage king there really is not a lot to judge the underage king on, but if you are looking for positives from his short reign is that he won a major civil war and brought peace to the realm and died tragically young.  History tends to be positive about such rulers, rather than negative. 

 

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Just now, Bernie Mac said:

Possibly so, though I'm of the opinion that people can change, certainly a 12/13 year old boy can.

I am as well. And I agree, Joffrey would have changed... for the worse. There is ample, textual evidence that Joffrey was becoming crueller (killing animals, having people killed, killing them himself... and this is not hunting, executing criminals justifiably, and killing in combat). There is no textual evidence that he was getting less cruel. His actions at his wedding breakfast are a good indication of Joffrey's personality and character... he receives the book from Tyrion, graciously, thanks his uncle and declares that he'll learn to be a good King. Then someone gives him a sword, and he shows his true colours, cutting the book to pieces and delighting in naming the sword Widow's Wail to remind himself of that time he had a man beheaded. This is a pattern we see repeatedly with Joff... We see a sweet young prince, then that masks slips and we see the true monster beneath. It happens when he takes Sansa for a ride in the Riverlands and they happen upon Arya. It happens at the feast for the Hand's Tourney.

None of Joffrey's actions as a person were good. None of his actions as a King were good. He was not a good King... he was a cruel, vindictive little shit. 

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1 minute ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

I am as well. And I agree, Joffrey would have changed... for the worse.

but he could have also changed for the better, right?

What you do as a child does not determine who you are. 

1 minute ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

There is ample, textual evidence that Joffrey was becoming crueller (killing animals,

except what animals had he recently been cruel to? You can't become 'crueller' if that is your very first 'cruel' action. 

he did something when he was five, in a world that is very cruel to its animals, and was beaten as a result of his actions. 

1 minute ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

having people killed,

How many kings of Westeros can you name who did not have anyone killed? 

1 minute ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

killing them himself...

a mob, when only days earlier a mob had attacked the royal party, killing some members, raping others and in some cases cannibalizing others. 

you act like it was some random act, context is important and while I think his actions were stupid (given they were likely to be under siege in the future) his actions here were not out of character for a medieval king. 

1 minute ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

and this is not hunting, executing criminals justifiably,

well no, you are wrong, the mob had became criminals. 

1 minute ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

There is no textual evidence that he was getting less cruel.

well actually that is not quite true, Joffrey is more cruel in ACOK than he is in ASOS.

 

 And this should not surprise anyone in the slightest, in the events of the books we see

  • the man he believed was his father die
  • his future father in law claim he was a bastard and that his uncle was actually his father
  • his brother-in-law and two uncles raise armies to kill him, the majority of the realm wanted him dead
  • those armies slowly advance on him, the cities food supplies cut off
  • mobs attack him, kill people in his party
  • the only two male figures in his life in ACOK is an uncle who openly despises him and the Hound, a killing machine. 

He is still a little shit in ASOS., but nowhere near as bad as the previous book and with peace, stability and more positive male rolemodels, which Tywin, Kevan and Loras would have been, he may have became less of a shit. 

1 minute ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

His actions at his wedding breakfast are a good indication of Joffrey's personality and character... he receives the book from Tyrion, graciously, thanks his uncle and declares that he'll learn to be a good King.

yeah, this is what bugs me about the fandom and Tyrion. They seem to always his ignore his actions. The first time we see Tyrion and his 12 year old Joffrey interact it is Tyrion hitting him and enjoy putting him down, he does the same all throughout his time as Hand. 

There is no love lost between these two and in this case the adult Tyrion deserves more of the blame than the 12 year old Joffrey.  Joffrey's wedding see's an immature boy do immature things to his uncle.

1 minute ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

None of Joffrey's actions as a person were good.

Yeah, no one has really argued otherwise. 

What has been argued is that OP is talking about being a King, not a person as well as the fact that who we are at 12 does not define us for the rest of our lives. 

1 minute ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

None of his actions as a King were good. He was not a good King... he was a cruel, vindictive little shit. 

You are being obtuse now, Kings winning wars and bringing peace are good., Kings being nice people is immaterial to how they perform as a king

 

If you want to talk about Joffrey as a person then start your own thread, this one is about him as King. 

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On 7/13/2018 at 9:15 PM, Brianstorm said:

He certainly would not have put up with the High Septon and would have tried to get a stooge into that position, however that could lead to it's own problems. That said. even if he wasn't meant to be a long term king, getting an heir from Margaery would've been optimal vs the Purple Wedding happening when it did.

I am not convinced the Lannisters are better than the High Septon.  Dude is at least looking out for the poor.  I can't say the same for the Lannister twins and their first born son.  A son with Margaery would grow up around Jaime and Cersei.  The poor guy doesn't have much a chance growing up balanced.  

To further elaborate on what I already wrote.  Religion is not a bad thing.  Many people get easily lost and they need principles to help guide them through life.  That the septon care for the needy is a good thing.  The people with plenty should help the needy.  I guess that's not how the high born see it but it is the right way.  The septon is not an evil guy.  

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I can't believe you're still flogging this dead horse. (I can't believe I am, either.)

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

but [Joffrey] could have also changed for the better, right?

Not under the influence of Mad Queen Mother Cersei. Tywin was right, trying to marry her off again so she'd move away. Far, far away, like Highgarden. Post-Tywin (and post-Joffrey), Kevan was right in trying to get Cersei to move back to Casterly Rock to rule as Lady, and get her away from innocent young Tommen, before she turned him into another Joffrey. But Cersei would either have to be killed, imprisoned, or dragged off kicking and screaming to part her from her male ruling surrogate Joffrey. Joffrey was a stand-in for what Cersei wanted to be, but lacked the, er "equipment".

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59 minutes ago, zandru said:

 

Not under the influence of Mad Queen Mother Cersei. Tywin was right, trying to marry her off again so she'd move away.

So then he would not have been under her influence. So you agree that the future of a 12/13 year old boy was not set in stone. 

 

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No. What is up with people trying to sympathise with clearly cruel vicious characters? Is Ramsay suddenly not that bad of a dude? Anyways, no, Joffrey was a terrible king. I admit he had good ideas for standing royal armies and stuff, but he was a terrible king, and a terrible person. He enjoyed beating Sansa, an innocent girl who really did nothing wrong, he starved his own people, he cut open pregnant cats to see the kittens inside (and to me cruelty against animals really, really gets to me), and killed starving peasants with a crossbow. And while he could have been a better ruler if he got older, I doubt it. He was spoiled and got whatever he wanted.

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1 hour ago, Vhagar's Ghost said:

No. What is up with people trying to sympathise with clearly cruel vicious characters? 

This is not about about sympathy, it is a about kingship, not about Joffrey the humanitarian. 

Being a good person does not mean you are a good king while being a bad person can still mean you can be a good king. 

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5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So you agree that the future of a 12/13 year old boy was not set in stone. 

I suggest he may have had a chance to at least learn to curb his enthusiasms in public, under Tywin's iron hand. But Joffrey's character seemed to be pretty well set by the time of his death.

2 hours ago, Vhagar's Ghost said:

 What is up with people trying to sympathise with clearly cruel vicious characters?   ... and to me cruelty against animals really, really gets to me)

I'm with you on that. Also, Tommen mentioned that he once had a fawn as a pet - but Joffrey killed it to have a vest made for himself. Cruel, selfish, inconsiderate. Bernie Mac's kind of guy - in another thread, he goes all out for Tywin, too.

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3 minutes ago, zandru said:

I suggest he may have had a chance to at least learn to curb his enthusiasms in public, under Tywin's iron hand. But Joffrey's character seemed to be pretty well set by the time of his death.

The fact that he is less cruel in ASOS than he is in ACOK suggests that his course was not set. 

3 minutes ago, zandru said:

I'm with you on that. Also, Tommen mentioned that he once had a fawn as a pet - but Joffrey killed it to have a vest made for himself.

Yup, though it was a fawn brought back from the hunt, which tends to happen to such animals. 

3 minutes ago, zandru said:

Cruel, selfish, inconsiderate. Bernie Mac's kind of guy - in another thread, he goes all out for Tywin, too.

this is bizarre reasoning, are you under the impression that you can not talk about a fictional character unless you relate on some level to that person?  I'd be offended if it was not so stupid. 

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17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So you agree that the future of a 12/13 year old boy was not set in stone. 

In the real world, sure.

In a fictional series where that 12/13 year old boy has a future, and the author has given us suggestions that they could go his way, or could go that way, where there has been hints of a reversal of character given by the author, or actual acts towards redemption for the character, sure. 

In the case of Joffrey, no. Because GRRM wrote him with no redeemable features, with no suggestion that he would change into a good person, no softening of his cruelty, or anything pointing towards Joff having an upward trajectory when it came to his character. Absolutely nothing to hint or foreshadow some sort of redemption or rehabilitation of his character. Instead, GRRM gave us his trajectory of increasing cruelty (animals, ordering deaths, killing people himself... and not in the "accepted" ways of hunting, leading men, and fighting), and his pattern of showing the Princely mask before it slips and we see his true monstrous nature (i.e., the wedding breakfast - thanks Tyrion, shows some feigned contrition, shows his true nature by revelling in Ned's death and destroying the book). 

Nothing suggests Joffrey would or could become a good man, and a good King. 

Everything suggests Joffrey would become a bad man, and a bad King. 

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58 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

In the real world, sure.

In fictional worlds as well. In fact I guarantee it is far easier for a fictional character to change his personality than it is for a real person. 

GRRM compares Joffrey to a regular child bully, this would suggest that his path is not 100% set. I doubt he'd ever be a decent human being, but his antics in ACOK may not be the norm. 

58 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

I

In the case of Joffrey, no. Because GRRM wrote him with no redeemable features, with no suggestion that he would change into a good person,

You are hung up on this good person malarkey, that is not what this thread is about. Kingship has fuck all to do with being a good person. 

I get that is your only argument in this debate, but it immaterial to the discussion. 

 

58 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Nothing suggests Joffrey would or could become a good man, and a good King. 

literally no argument has been made about him being a good person, but being a good king has zero to do with being a good ruler. 

Octavius/ Augustus was not a good person, but was the greatest ruler of the Roman Empire, history is littered with great rulers who were not good people. 

58 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Everything suggests Joffrey would become a bad man, and a bad King. 

There is zero link between the two. 

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16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

In fictional worlds as well. In fact I guarantee it is far easier for a fictional character to change his personality than it is for a real person. 

I literally said that yes, in fictional worlds, characters can change. But not Joffrey. GRRM gave us no hint, clue, suggestion, or foreshadowing that Joffrey was going to turn around, and not grow up to be a shitty person and a terrible King. Absolutely nothing to suggest that, when he did gain absolute power, he wouldn't use it in the way he used what power he did have (being terrible).  

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

You are hung up on this good person malarkey

You spectacularly fail to understand my arguments if this is your take away. 

It's not just that Joffrey was a bad man, it's that he was a terrible man, compared frequently to the Mad King for example, a man who burned men alive and brought ruin to his Dynasty. Joffrey had no hint that he could become a better man. No hint that he'd become a good and just King... GRRM showed his path to us clearly - He was cruel and vindictive, and would only become more so. GRRM gave us no suggestion that he'd mature into a good King. 

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Kingship has fuck all to do with being a good person. 

I disagree, and I think GRRM does too. You don't see that, that's your problem. 

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history is littered with great rulers who were not good people. 

But that doesn't mean that bad people make good rulers. Nothing, absolutely nothing, suggests Joffrey would have been a good ruler. When he did have power, he did terrible things with that power. That suggests that Joffrey would be a bad ruler, in addition to being a bad person. 

I think I've said all I'm going to on this. You're not going to convince me that the cruel, spiteful, vindictive boy King was a good person and a good ruler. 

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24 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

I literally said that yes, in fictional worlds, characters can change. But not Joffrey.

lol every fictional character can change but the 13 year old joffrey? come on, be serious. 

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GRRM gave us no hint, clue, suggestion, or foreshadowing that Joffrey was going to turn around, and not grow up to be a shitty person and a terrible King. 

There is zero link between the two, many shitty people have made good and effective rulers.  A more recent example would be Churchill, one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century, but a shitty human being who's decisions saw millions starve in India. 

 

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You spectacularly fail to understand my arguments if this is your take away. 

I understand them perfectly. You can't prove he was or would have been a bad king so you are focusing on the personality of a 12/13 year old boy, which has nothing to do with how he would be a ruler. 

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It's not just that Joffrey was a bad man, it's that he was a terrible man,

he never lived long enough to become a man, he was a child. 

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compared frequently to the Mad King for example a man who burned men alive and brought ruin to his Dynasty.

and yet despite all that, for the majority of Aerys reign he was a good king. had he died in early 282 he would have gone down as a great king despite being a shitty person

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Joffrey had no hint that he could become a better man. No hint that he'd become a good and just King...

you are linking the two when there is no real connection. One does not lead to the other. grrm in interviews is more than clear about this

 GRRM; "So you know, that kind of stuff has always interested me. But I also want to respond—I’ve read a lot of history about feudal history and Roman history and so forth, about politics in those days. I follow contemporary politics. And you know, what strikes me is that these issues are horrid. And a lot of fantasy makes it seem simply: a good man will be a good king. Well, a good man is not always a good king. And a bad man is not always a bad king. You know, it’s much more complicated than that. It’s you know, I look at in my lifetime, I think probably the best man to serve as President in my lifetime was Jimmy Carter. As a human being, the best human being, but he was not a good President. He was not."

 

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I disagree, and I think GRRM does too. You don't see that, that's your problem. 

except he does not, the quote above shows he rejects the link that most fantasy and fairytale readers have that being a bad person means you are a bad king. 

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Just now, Bernie Mac said:

every fictional character can change but the 13 year old joffrey? come on, be serious.

Every fictional character can change, if the author suggests they can. GRRM gave no suggestion Joffrey could change, would change, or was changing. None. Therefore Joffrey was not going to change. GRRM didn't show us that, perhaps, Joff was maturing and mellowing only for him to die tragically at his wedding, and we're left thinking what could have been. Joff was a monster right up until his death, with no sign of redemption or change. 

There is nothing in the text that shows Joffrey was a good King, or would be a good King. Instead, we're shown he was a terrible person, and when he had power he was terrible with it. That's my argument. Show me text that shows otherwise, or I'm not going to respond. 

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6 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Every fictional character can change, if the author suggests they can. GRRM gave no suggestion Joffrey could change

yeah, he actually did

http://www.ew.com/article/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed

grrm: Yeah. I think Joffrey is a classic 13-year-old bully. Do you know many 13-year-old kids you’d like to give absolute power to? There’s a cruelty in children, especially children of a certain age, that you see in junior high and middle school. We don’t want 13-year-old bullies to be put to death. We probably do when we’re their 13-year-old victims, but they grow up and most of them grow out of it, and sometimes people do regret their actions. But Joffrey will never get that chance, so we don’t know what he would have become. Probably nothing good, but still…

so yeah, GRRM is more than clear that it was possible, if not likely, that he could have grown out of it. 

Though you are missing the point, his character has nothing to do with his effectiveness as a ruler. 

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 Joff was a monster right up until his death, with no sign of redemption or change. 

Except that is not actually true, he is much worse in ACOK than he is in ASOS

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There is nothing in the text that shows Joffrey was a good King,

He won a war, winning wars and bringing peace is actually a positive for Kings. 

You are confusing with Joffrey the person and joffrey the king. 

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or would be a good King.

except nothing you have written suggests that as you are hung up on this idea that Joffrey being a shitty person disqualifies him from being a good ruler, it does not. 

 

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