Was Poor, Sweet Joff a good king?

[Unacosamedarisa]

12 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

yeah, he actually did

No, he didn't. He even said that Joffrey was unlikely to change... he leaves it a little ambiguous in the interview, because he wants to play on the whole "13 year old choking in his mother's arms", which then builds into Cersei's POV and the attempt to make her character more sympathetic.

But, my point is, in the text, the actual ASoIaF books, GRRM did not show us that Joffrey was willing to change for the better. GRRM didn't show us he was a good King. GRRM did show us that Joffrey was changing for the worse (escalating violence and cruelty). GRRM did show us that Joffrey was a bad King (the bad things he did with what little power he had). 

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He won a war

What? Are you actually serious? Joffrey won a war? How do you come up with that? Tywin won the war for Joffrey, defeating Stannis and dealing with the North. What did Joffrey do to win the war? 

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You are confusing with Joffrey the person and joffrey the king. 

Kind of easy to do when everything Joff proposed as King was to satisfy his personal cruelty and vindictiveness. Did he ever suggest or propose anything that was good for the Realm, and not just to satisfy his own whims? Joffrey as a King would be Joffrey as a person, but with absolute power. Do you think that he would ever separate his personal self from his rule? 

[Bernie Mac]

10 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

No, he didn't.

yes he did, you really need to reread your own posts, here is what you said and what I replied to

YOU: GRRM gave no suggestion Joffrey could change

And GRRM claims he could change

Now you seem to be confused, at no point in this entire thread, where you have tried to derail the conversation from Joffrey the King to Joffrey the person, have I claimed he would become a good person. I merly pointed out that he could change, which GRRM backs up with that quote. 

 

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He even said that Joffrey was unlikely to change...

right, that door is still open in his words, in his own words we don’t know what he would have become. 

So the very fact that the author himself does not know means it was not settled. but again, you should probably start a new topic about joffrey the person rather than continue to derail this thread as this is about his potential as a ruler, not a humanitarian. 

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But, my point is, in the text, the actual ASoIaF books, GRRM did not show us that Joffrey was willing to change for the better.

you are hung up on him as a person, it has nothing to do with him as a ruler, but even here you are wrong.  He is much worse in book 2 than he is in book 3, or are you going to argue he is  worse in book 3 than he is in book 2?

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GRRM didn't show us he was a good King.

exactly my original point, he was not really the ruler, he was an underage king. 

but winning wars and bringing peace are positives for a king. To put this clearer, Joffrey was a better king than Robb was despite the fact that Robb is a better person than Joffrey is. 

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GRRM did show us that Joffrey was changing for the worse (escalating violence and cruelty).

no, you are quite clearly talking nonsense here. 

he is far worse in book 2 than he is in book 3 by some margin, now either you are confused about what the word escalation means or you are not familiar with the books. 

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GRRM did show us that Joffrey was a bad King (the bad things he did with what little power he had). 

lol no, he didn't. you are still confusing being king with being a good/bad person. 

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What? Are you actually serious? Joffrey won a war? How do you come up with that? Tywin won the war for Joffrey, defeating Stannis and dealing with the North. What did Joffrey do to win the war? 

eh? you seem to have no idea what being a king/ruler entails. Kings don't have to be on the battlefield to have won wars, they can appoint people to fight the wars for them. 

good kings will actually allow the best suited people to do the jobs they are best suited for. 

 

[Unacosamedarisa]

29 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

But, my point is, in the text, the actual ASoIaF books, GRRM did not show us that Joffrey was willing to change for the better.

Was what I meant. Nothing in the books suggests Joffrey was changing, or would change. Nothing. 

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

he is far worse in book 2 than he is in book 3 by some margin

No, he isn't. He appears worse in book 2, because in book 3 he has Tywin hovering over him, and so he isn't willing to be as open with his cruelty. But, he still threatens to rape Sansa on her wedding night in book 3 (a major escalation from the previous stripping and beating), he still insists on serving Sansa Robb's head in book 3, he still insists on there being no mercy for the North and Riverlands in book 3, and he still tries to humiliate his uncle at the wedding in book 3. It's all part of Joffrey's facade, like I've said 3 times in this thread at least... He shows the Princely facade to people, comes across as gracious and nice and all that, and then the mask slips and we see the monster beneath. 

Also, I'm talking about his general escalation. We hear about him killing numerous animals, then we see him killing animals and ordering people's deaths, then he moves on to killing himself. This is the escalation of a monster. 

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Kings don't have to be on the battlefield to have won wars, they can appoint people to fight the wars for them. 

So... what exactly did Joffrey do to win the war? Appoint Tywin as his Hand? You yourself have said, previously in this very thread... 

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nor was it Joffrey's decision to make Tywin the Hand or Tyrion the stand in hand. 

To be honest, this makes me think you're either disingenuous, or a parody. But, to actually claim Joffrey won the war is beyond parody. 

 

[Unacosamedarisa]

On 7/14/2018 at 9:26 PM, Bernie Mac said:

The only decision he ordered was Ned, a huge fuck up that Tywin was not going to allow to happen again. 

So, by your own admission, the only decision Joffrey made as King was "a huge fuck up"? Let's judge Joffrey on his actions as a King then... Verdict - a huge fuck up. 

[Bernie Mac]

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Was what I meant. Nothing in the books suggests Joffrey was changing, or would change. Nothing. 

no one claimed there was evidence that he was changing, i claimed it was possible that the 12/13 year old could change which the author admits was a possibility,   contrary your bizarre claim that all fictional characters could change with one exception; Joffrey,  wa

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

No, he isn't. He appears worse in book 2, because in book 3 he has Tywin hovering over him, and so he isn't willing to be as open with his cruelty.

that is a change for the positive, learning to control his emotions is a positive, not acting on his cruelty is a positive. but again, you are being transparent in trying to deflect the conversation away from rule, which has little to do with being a nice person. 

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

But, he still threatens to rape Sansa on her wedding night in book 3 (a major escalation from the previous stripping and beating),

you're kidding, right? you think a threat to do something is worse than actually beating and stripping someone? that is pretty messed up. 

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

he still insists on serving Sansa Robb's head in book 3,

another threat, in the real world we judge people on what they actually do. 

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

he still insists on there being no mercy for the North and Riverlands in book 3,

and yet there is when his grandfather explains why there should be.  he could have been taught to be a good ruler. 

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

and he still tries to humiliate his uncle at the wedding in book 3.

the uncle who has beat him on more than one occasion and never apologized to his 12 year old nephew? yeah, their fucked up relationship is a two way street and the adult has more responsibility than the child in their failure to get along. 

 

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Also, I'm talking about his general escalation. We hear about him killing numerous animals, then we see him killing animals and ordering people's deaths, then he moves on to killing himself. This is the escalation of a monster. 

sorry, who does he kill in book three? book three is not an escalation for Joffrey, if anything it is a deescalation considering he was much worse in book two when the majority of the realm wanted him dead, which is going to have a psychological effect on most 12 year old boys

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

So... what exactly did Joffrey do to win the war? Appoint Tywin as his Hand? You yourself have said, previously in this very thread... 

but you are judging him as king,  either you accept that he was underage and did not rule, in which case there is zero to judge him on as king or, like you were arguing, he was the ruler in which case winning the war counts as a positive on his time as king

i am more than happy to debate either position with you, but pick one.

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

To be honest, this makes me think you're either disingenuous, or a parody. But, to actually claim Joffrey won the war is beyond parody. 

 

yeah, you are missing what the title of king actually means, which probably explains why you keep on going to back to Joffrey the person.  Take Balon for example, he does not set foot in the north yet he, as king, gets the credit for conquering the north

snapped Cersei. "By what right does he call himself king?"

"By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore. King Balon's longships command the sunset sea

 

Monarch's are the living embodiment of the state (netflix's the  Crown offers a great perspective on this) and as such are judged in the same manner. Joffrey's subordinates winning the war is a credit to him as king. 

 

[Unacosamedarisa]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

no one claimed there was evidence that he was changing

If there was a chance of him changing, if GRRM intended us to read that, there would be evidence of the change. This is what I meant. 

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

contrary your bizarre claim that all fictional characters could change with one exception; Joffrey,

You still don't understand. I'm saying that fictional characters can change. But, if the author writes them with no sign, hint, or evidence of the change, then that character isn't changing. As it is with Joffrey. 

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

you're kidding, right? you think a threat to do something is worse than actually beating and stripping someone?

No. I think the ACTUAL RAPE of someone, which Joffrey intended to do, and would have done had Tyrion not threatened to geld him, is worse than the stripping and beating. Remember, Joff makes the threat then calls for the bedding, and Tyrion scares him off. 

And I'm done. This was a clearly wilful misunderstanding of what I said. Clearly you want to insinuate that your opponents in these arguments are terrible people, rather than deal with their actual arguments. 

[Bernie Mac]

13 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

If there was a chance of him changing, if GRRM intended us to read that, there would be evidence of the change. This is what I meant. 

Why would there be? We only see 18 months of Joffrey's life, and for the majority of that time, the time he actually did most of his awful shit, was a time when he would have been under the most psychological turmoil given that most of the realm, including family memvbers, wanted him dead.  

 

Characters, especially young characters, can change. we see that constantly in the series.  GRRRM points out that we don't know how he would have turned out, the door was still open

13 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

You still don't understand. I'm saying that fictional characters can change. But, if the author writes them with no sign, hint, or evidence of the change, then that character isn't changing. As it is with Joffrey. 

But he has changed from book 2 to book 3, not a huge change but his behaviur is far worse in book 2 than 3. 

13 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

No. I think the ACTUAL RAPE of someone,

but he has not raped anyone. you are grasping at straws if you think a threat is some how worse than him having Sansa beat. 

13 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

and would have done had Tyrion not threatened to geld him, is worse than the stripping and beating.

no, threats are not worse than actions. you won't find a judge alive who agree's with you

 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:15 PM, Brianstorm said:

He certainly would not have put up with the High Septon and would have tried to get a stooge into that position, however that could lead to it's own problems. That said. even if he wasn't meant to be a long term king, getting an heir from Margaery would've been optimal vs the Purple Wedding happening when it did.

This is why they weren't trying to kill Joffrey at the PW. They were trying to kill Tyrion. The poison was in the pie, not the wine.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

3 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

No, he didn't. He even said that Joffrey was unlikely to change... he leaves it a little ambiguous in the interview, because he wants to play on the whole "13 year old choking in his mother's arms", which then builds into Cersei's POV and the attempt to make her character more sympathetic.

But, my point is, in the text, the actual ASoIaF books, GRRM did not show us that Joffrey was willing to change for the better. GRRM didn't show us he was a good King. GRRM did show us that Joffrey was changing for the worse (escalating violence and cruelty). GRRM did show us that Joffrey was a bad King (the bad things he did with what little power he had). 

What? Are you actually serious? Joffrey won a war? How do you come up with that? Tywin won the war for Joffrey, defeating Stannis and dealing with the North. What did Joffrey do to win the war? 

Kind of easy to do when everything Joff proposed as King was to satisfy his personal cruelty and vindictiveness. Did he ever suggest or propose anything that was good for the Realm, and not just to satisfy his own whims? Joffrey as a King would be Joffrey as a person, but with absolute power. Do you think that he would ever separate his personal self from his rule? 

If George wanted us to give serious thought to the idea of Poor Joff dying in his mother's arms, he shouldn't have written what looks like classic serial killer clues into Joff's early character.  The cat and Tommen's fawn are done in that vein.  I think George failed if his idea was to have us pause at the idea of a dead Joff.  Dead Joff is a good thing, and the sooner, the better. 

 

[Unacosamedarisa]

32 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

If George wanted us to give serious thought to the idea of Poor Joff dying in his mother's arms, he shouldn't have written what looks like classic serial killer clues into Joff's early character. 

I agree, though I think any sympathy arising from it is meant to be for Cersei, not Joffrey. 

[White Ravens]

Ah, poor sweet Joffrey Baratheon.  So sweet.  Such a delight.

 

Who is sweeter, though:  Joffrey, Gregor Clegane or Euron Greyjoy? 

[JaneSnow]

I suppose if someone took him away from Cersei's influence and started to raise him properly, disciplining him and such then maybe he could have changed given his age. Being a psychopath is a personality disorder. Those aren't diagnosed until the age of 18 because children are still growing and developing. Like the case of Mary Bell. Sadistic child who murdered two toddlers and mutilated the bodies afterwards. After her arrest she was sent to a juvenile facility. When she was released as an adult she went on to live a perfectly normal life. Became a loving wife and mother. Of course in ASOIAF he'd never the therapy he needs so maybe not, idk.

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

If George wanted us to give serious thought to the idea of Poor Joff dying in his mother's arms, he shouldn't have written what looks like classic serial killer clues into Joff's early character.  The cat and Tommen's fawn are done in that vein.  I think George failed if his idea was to have us pause at the idea of a dead Joff.  Dead Joff is a good thing, and the sooner, the better. 

 

I'm sorry what? Explain further your reasoning. I've never heard this theory before. I'm intrigued.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I'm sorry what? Explain further your reasoning. I've never heard this theory before. I'm intrigued.

Maybe you should look into the pasts of a few well known serial killers, and the animal experimentation that accompanies many of them. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

18 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

I agree, though I think any sympathy arising from it is meant to be for Cersei, not Joffrey. 

Cersei is a hard character to have sympathy for, but yes, I'd be more inclined to feel sympathy for her in the situation of Joffrey's death than Joff himself.  I do think it was his death that probably set off new fears on the prophecy in regard to Cersei.  I don't think she was quite as far gone before Joff's death, IMO, anyway.  It's a guess. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Maybe you should look into the pasts of a few well known serial killers, and the animal experimentation that accompanies many of them. 

My bad; meant to quote @Jon suburbs  about his theory of Tyrion being the one meant to get poisoned at Joffery's wedding; 

 

On July 16, 2018 at 10:36 AM, John Suburbs said:

This is why they weren't trying to kill Joffrey at the PW. They were trying to kill Tyrion. The poison was in the pie, not the wine.

 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

22 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

My bad; meant to quote @Jon suburbs  about his theory of Tyrion being the one meant to get poisoned at Joffery's wedding; 

 

 

Ah, ok, no problem.  I think it's pretty certain that the poison found it's intended mark at The Purple Wedding. 

[Vhagar's Ghost]

On 7/16/2018 at 11:00 PM, White Ravens said:

Ah, poor sweet Joffrey Baratheon.  So sweet.  Such a delight.

 

Who is sweeter, though:  Joffrey, Gregor Clegane or Euron Greyjoy? 

Honestly, Joffrey. Every time someone mentions Euron I get chills all over my body, I think of The Frosaken and what he did to Urri and Aeron, and I just become frozen. Euron terrifies me because I have no idea what he is doing.

[Brianstorm]

On 7/16/2018 at 2:06 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

If George wanted us to give serious thought to the idea of Poor Joff dying in his mother's arms, he shouldn't have written what looks like classic serial killer clues into Joff's early character.  The cat and Tommen's fawn are done in that vein.  I think George failed if his idea was to have us pause at the idea of a dead Joff.  Dead Joff is a good thing, and the sooner, the better.  

 

Yes he may have killed some people personally, but my point in starting the thread was would that be worth saving the lives of thousands if not hundreds of thousands? This is how George has set us up to think about his universe IMO.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

2 minutes ago, Brianstorm said:

Yes he may have killed some people personally, but my point in starting the thread was would that be worth saving the lives of thousands if not hundreds of thousands? This is how George has set us up to think about his universe IMO.

I don't see anything about Joff's kingship that would save lives, you have me lost on that notion. 

ETA:  My post about the serial killing clues were in response to a particular post, not the entirety of your hypothesis.