The execution of Janos Slynt was personal and it was not justice.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

This quote is from just before he decides to assign Janos to Greyguard and Giant to Icemark:

He was preparing to continue the fight with the wildlings (and the wights later).

Again - where is your evidence that the guidelines of the NW stipulate that the slightest insubordination in 'wartime' (as defined by you) is deserving (only) of death? There is no such evidence I'm aware of.

The very existence of Mance as a King-beyond-the-Wall could be used to make a case that they were also 'at war' back before AGoT began. In fact, the tales of Qhorin Halfhand and his men make it clear that the Watch and the wildlings are actually never truly at peace.

[Bernie Mac]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Again - where is your evidence that the guidelines of the NW stipulate that the slightest insubordination in 'wartime' (as defined by you) is deserving (only) of death. There is no such evidence I'm aware of.

There clearly is not. Jon considers the punishments in his head the very moment he sentences him to death

"As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall - "

 -  and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.

-  and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him?

" - and hang him," Jon finished.

 Janos Slynt's face went as white as milk. The spoon slipped from his fingers. Edd and Emmett crossed the room, their footsteps ringing on the stone floor. Bowen Marsh's mouth opened and closed though no words came out. Ser Alliser Thorne reached for his sword hilt. Go on, Jon thought. Longclaw was slung across his back. Show your steel. Give me cause to do the same.

The surprise from long standing members of the Watch should make it obvious the punishment jon chose was not in line with the crime. 

 

 

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Again - where is your evidence that the guidelines of the NW stipulate that the slightest insubordination in 'wartime' (as defined by you) is deserving (only) of death? There is no such evidence I'm aware of.

The very existence of Mance as a King-beyond-the-Wall could be used to make a case that they were also 'at war' back before AGoT began. In fact, the tales of Qhorin Halfhand and his men make it clear that the Watch and the wildlings are actually never truly at peace.

You think refusing twice to take command of a castle at the time the wildlings are ready to cross the wall is a slight insubordination?.

Jon thinks the execution clearly. It is within his power to do this as not even Alliser Thorne opposes the decision.

Quote

Please take Lord Janos to the Wall—"

—and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again.

—and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him?

"—and hang him," Jon finished.

 

Quote

Alliser Thorne took his hand from his sword and stepped aside to let Edd Tollett pass.

 

[Wm Portnoy]

3 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Killing Slynt and then turning around to let Mance get away with his crimes is double-standard.  

Double-standard.  Inconsistent.  Partial.  Jon's handling of justice is very flawed because he's a very biased man.  Inconsistent distribution of rewards and punishment make fairness impossible.  Jon is not cut out for leadership.  He deserved what he got from Bowen Marsh.  

4 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Correct.  It was revenge for the execution of Ned Stark at the hands of the Lannisters.  Slynt supported the Lannisters and that made him the enemy in Jon's prejudiced heart.  There was no justice done in that execution.  Slynt was set up.  You could tell Jon wanted to kill him.  

He wanted to kill Alliser too.  

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

For a bit of context we should mention that even in the current real world insubordination at the time of war can be punishable by death (for example in the US military). Janos was given two chances before he was executed for insubordination at the time of war.

Not for being a smart ass.  And that was the only thing Slynt did.  He smarted off to Jon and begged for mercy in the end and agreed to go.  Jon could have shown mercy then.  Yet he didn't.  What really made the execution an insult to justice is how Jon handled Mance Rayder.  I agree with those who posted their disapproval of Jon and how he handled Slynt and Rayder.  Jon was using double standards.  Jon became erratic and therefore not fit to lead the night's watch.  Bowen terminated him and here we are.  

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 wow, that is an amazing conclusion you have came to in regards to strangers you know nothing about beyond some of their opinions on fictional characters

No, not really. First off, it's not a conclusion at all. I simply said it reminded me of the saying/quote, and it does. And please, don't play coy. You have seen - and participated in, I might add - the gazillion Jon hate hreads that keep popping up. How poor Ramsay didn't do anything wrong; how Bowen Marsh is an honourable man who is only trying to do the right thing. And on and on and on, ad nauseam. If random nobodies on the internet want to claim Janos Slynt is a standup guy who got killed unreservedly, they have to be willing to read the counterarguments. And if they're so desperate to paint Jon in a bad light that they're willing to come across as "readers" who do simply do not get it at all, again, they must be just as willing to hear other people's counterarguments. 

If someone has the right to tell me, "Janos Slynt was not a bad guy and was killed unreservedly", I  have the right to say, "fuck me, you're a scary person and I hope I never get to meet you". 

[Wm Portnoy]

On 7/14/2018 at 3:55 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

As it should. Who wants to read a story about a hero who acts like a robot, putting aside all personal feeings in favour of duty?

Would be super boring.

A guy who puts personal feelings ahead of his duties is no hero.  I don't consider him a hero.  Boring and unprofessional, he is.  Somebody like that who puts his personal wants ahead of the welfare of the many is selfish.  

 

[Bernie Mac]

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, not really. First off, it's not a conclusion at all. I simply said it reminded me of the saying/quote, and it does. And please, don't play coy. You have seen - and participated in, I might add - the gazillion Jon hate hreads that keep popping up.

Really. what are these negative things you imagine i say about him? 

Quote

 

How poor Ramsay didn't do anything wrong;

10, 000 dollars to the charity of your choice if you can find such a post from me. 

Quote

 

how Bowen Marsh is an honourable man who is only trying to do the right thing.

at this stage i think you may have confused me for someone else

Quote

And if they're so desperate to paint Jon in a bad light 

how is it a bad light? have you actually read the series? Jon killing a man because he killed his father is hardly in the top 100 worst things that have happened in the series., not even close. 

pointing out that he is human is not presenting him in a bad light. the majority of the people on this board would have made the same emotional decision that jon did. 

Quote

If someone has the right to tell me, "Janos Slynt was not a bad guy and was killed unreservedly", I  have the right to say, "fuck me, you're a scary person and I hope I never get to meet you". 

That is your prerogative, just seems very bizarre.  The fact that people with differing opinions, about a fictional characters of a fictional universe, to yourself actually scares you says a lot more about you than it does anyone else. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Wm Portnoy said:

A guy who puts personal feelings ahead of his duties is no hero.  I don't consider him a hero.  Boring and unprofessional, he is.  Somebody like that who puts his personal wants ahead of the welfare of the many is selfish.  

 

Sorry, but that is just bollocks to such a degree they haven't even invented a word for it yet. 

I'll be back [insert Arnie accent].

[Wm Portnoy]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, not really. First off, it's not a conclusion at all. I simply said it reminded me of the saying/quote, and it does. And please, don't play coy. You have seen - and participated in, I might add - the gazillion Jon hate hreads that keep popping up. How poor Ramsay didn't do anything wrong; how Bowen Marsh is an honourable man who is only trying to do the right thing. And on and on and on, ad nauseam. If random nobodies on the internet want to claim Janos Slynt is a standup guy who got killed unreservedly, they have to be willing to read the counterarguments. And if they're so desperate to paint Jon in a bad light that they're willing to come across as "readers" who do simply do not get it at all, again, they must be just as willing to hear other people's counterarguments. 

If someone has the right to tell me, "Janos Slynt was not a bad guy and was killed unreservedly", I  have the right to say, "fuck me, you're a scary person and I hope I never get to meet you". 

Criticizing Jon is fair game.  Every character gets criticized on this message board.  Jon behaved inappropriately and it is understandable that fans who don't like him will express what they think.  

 

[Wm Portnoy]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sorry, but that is just bollocks to such a degree they haven't even invented a word for it yet. 

I'll be back [insert Arnie accent].

Jon acted on his selfish feelings and sought revenge for the Starks.  That is improper conduct for a brother of the night's watch and as far from being a hero as you can get.  

[Clegane'sPup]

The kid did not want to be LC. Aemon ( Targ) and Sam finagled it.

Nunna ya yappers replied to why Tyrion sent Slynt to to the Wall.

Slynt doesn't seem to understand that his KL connections means nothing. He is sent to the Wall by Tyrion for crimes he committed.

Ohhhhhhhh, yes. Crimes are to be forgotten.

Except --- for some reason Slynt takes charge of the NW with Thorne's help and sends the snowflake out to kill Mance and Stannis intervenes  

 

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Jon acted on his selfish feelings and sought revenge for the Starks.  That is improper conduct for a brother of the night's watch and as far from being a hero as you can get.  

You seem to have missed a major point that an author such as Martin writes in to his own stories, including the fact he has also called Jon the most honorable in how he deals with his self/situations. If you think this is a story about one true hero to save the day and restore a certain family name to the oppressive iron throne, you are going to hate TWOW.  

The karma that was administered to a (minor) villain like Slynt was well deserved. It gives the reader something to root for when a Lannister like Tyrion sends Slynt to Jon to answer for his injustices in life because on the whole Janos is a frickin terrible person. This is a series about making the right decisions no matter what because words are wind. 

Wow, the hypocrisy between this thread and the concurrent Tywin thread is amazing. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jon went nuclear and it was not based on Slynt's insubordination that morning, it was based on who Slynt was, the crimes he committed before he took the Black and the fact that he was a rival who had the support of hundreds of others in the election. 

Your getting away my comment and point, which is Janos Slynt and his decision to publicly disobey an order from his LC.  If Slynt had followed the order of his superior he would not have been executed. Slynt gave his LC cause to punish him. None of Slynt's supporters even spoke up against the execution.  Jon hates Thorne as well yet didn't and couldn't punish him if he wanted to as Thorne had given him no cause.

Slynt was only sentenced to death when he decided to refuse a direct order of his Lord Commander. Again, no one forced Slynt to go rogue and start refusing orders. Whatever gave Slynt the idea that he could pick and choose which orders to follow is beyond me. Maybe he thought Thorne and the rest would follow his lead and refuse the new LC orders as well. In the end no one did though and they sat back and watched Slynt get executed. Slynt always overestimated his position and importance which was his downfall for the last time.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Wow, the hypocrisy between this thread and the concurrent Tywin thread are amazing.

True. Imagine if Janos Slynt disobeyed Tywin's order privately, then did so again publicly in front of all of his men. 

[Bernie Mac]

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Your getting away my comment and point, which is Janos Slynt and his decision to publicly disobey an order from his LC.  If Slynt had followed the order of his superior he would not have been executed.

It is pretty clear from his reaction that he never thought death was a possible punishment, it is not like desertion were everyone knows what the possible consequences are, and even then we know the previous lord commander was lenient on some. 

He quickly retracted when told what his punishment would be. 

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

Slynt gave his LC cause to punish him.

Sure, but not to murder him. The punishments Jon considered in that split second would have been justice, instead Jon bases his judgement not on the crime Slynt had committed but what he could do in the future. That is not justice. it is understandable, but not justice. 

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

None of Slynt's supporters even spoke up against the execution. 

Of course they didnt, Jon had just executed one person he did not like, why would anyone else put themselves in that situation. 

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

 Jon hates Thorne as well yet didn't and couldn't punish him if he wanted to as Thorne had given him no cause.

His hatred for Thorne and the man who removed his fathers head are worlds apart. 

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Slynt was only sentenced to death when he decided to refuse a direct order of his Lord Commander. 

the same morning Jon was fantasizing about killing him, it was something he very much wanted and was looking for any excuse to do it. That is not justice. 

As I have repeatedly said, I have no problem with Jon doing what he did, it was an entirely human response, but it was not justice it was personal and that is what this thread is about. 

 

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

Again, no one forced Slynt to go rogue and start refusing orders. Whatever gave Slynt the idea that he could pick and choose which orders to follow is beyond me.

Order, one order. 

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 Maybe he thought Thorne and the rest would follow his lead and refuse the new LC orders as well. In the end no one did though and they sat back and watched Slynt get executed. Slynt always overestimated his position and importance which was his downfall for the last time.

He clearly did not think that execution was on the cards for an offense that did not warrant it.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Criticizing Jon is fair game.  Every character gets criticized on this message board.  Jon behaved inappropriately and it is understandable that fans who don't like him will express what they think.  

 

Abso-fucking-lately agree w/ you here.

But there's critising, and then there's mindless bashing born out of simply disliking a character. The difference is ginormous. 

4 minutes ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Jon acted on his selfish feelings and sought revenge for the Starks.  That is improper conduct for a brother of the night's watch and as far from being a hero as you can get.  

I am 100% sure Jon's personal feelings played a part, but see, that's just exactly as it should be. 

And I would like to see some evidence that supports what you claim in the bolded part above. Because anyone who has read the books has to know Jon is one of few who actually wants to save people. As many as he can, but poor honourable Marsh agrees w/ Selyse, he thinks Jon should just "let them die". 

(Disclaimer: my quoter doesn't italicise for whatever reason)

ADwD, Jon

“The northmen glanced at one another. “Hostages,” mused The Norrey. “Tormund has agreed to this?”
It was that, or watch his people die. “My blood price, he called it,” said Jon Snow, “but he will pay.”
“Aye, and why not?” Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. “Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it.”
“None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o’ Winter,” said The Norrey. “Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o’ yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?”
Ask Janos Slynt. “Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark.”
Yet even that did not appease his Lord Steward. “You say these boys will serve as squires. Surely the lord commander does not mean they will be trained at arms?”“Jon’s anger flared. “No, my lord, I mean to set them to sewing lacy smallclothes. Of course they shall be trained at arms. They shall also churn butter, hew firewood, muck stables, empty chamber pots, and run messages … and in between they will be drilled with spear and sword and longbow.”
Marsh flushed a deeper shade of red. “The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night’s Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath.”
“I know what I swore.” Jon said the words. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?”
“They were. As the lord commander knows.”
“Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?”
Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck.
Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red to grey to black, from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice. Down below, Lady Melisandre would be lighting her nightfire and chanting, Lord of Light, defend us, for the night is dark and full of terrors.
“Winter is coming,” Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, “and with it the white walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them … but the Wall must be manned. This discussion is at an end. We have much to do before the gate is opened. Tormund and his people will need to be fed and clothed and housed. Some are sick and will need nursing. Those will fall to you, Clydas. Save as many as you can.”

 

[Lord Varys]

26 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Jon thinks the execution clearly. It is within his power to do this as not even Alliser Thorne opposes the decision.

Nobody said it wasn't in his power. The question it whether it was a just action. Or even a necessary action. And the answer to that is pretty clear: It was not.

Jon was certainly in the right to neutralize Slynt. But killing him is pretty harsh and sort of ... well, biased, considering his history. One does not hope to receive a sentence from a judge with as 'neutral' a disposition as Jon Snow...

One also has to keep in mind that this is a world run by the nobles. Meaning that you do treat nobles 'more equal' than common men. Commoners are drawn and quartered or hanged whereas nobles can demand trials-by-combat or the honor of being beheaded, etc. Nobles don't end in crow cages either, etc.

Janos Slynt was the Lord of Harrenhal when he took the black. He was a great lord of the Realm and could, as such, demand a certain amount of respect. 

But in the end the issue with Jon is just that he was too harsh too early and then did nothing to clean out the stable afterwards. The true danger was Marsh, as it turned out, not Slynt or Thorne. If you give your enemies cause to resent you even more (or even cause resentment among other men simply because you deliver harsh sentences) then you should better see to it that your own men - men you can trust and count upon - to hold all important offices. But Jon did nothing of that sort. That was most unwise.

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How poor Ramsay didn't do anything wrong; how Bowen Marsh is an honourable man who is only trying to do the right thing. And on and on and on, ad nauseam.

Oh, come on, nobody runs around here and defends what Ramsay is and does. But being a monster doesn't mean you are always wrong and cannot be in a situation where the guy you interact with is also wrong. Stealing the wife of a lord is a crime in this world, be the lord in question Ramsay, Ned Stark, Davos, or whoever else you want to name.

And Jon Snow is via office and wardrobe not in a position to deal with the lords and kings of the Seven Kingdoms on equal footing. He is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He has to take what is given and cannot take sides. We have to judge the people by the rules of the world they live in when we talk about certain issues, not by our own standards. And by the standards of this world Jon is neither the ideal black brother nor the idea Lord Commander.

And Bowen Marsh is a pretty honorable man. He is certainly not perfect, but he is neither a very corrupt nor an evil man. He is scarcely different from the scheming villains Maester Aemon and Samwell Tarly, or is he? People can't all be wildling lovers, can they? And the people of the Seven Kingdoms really have no reason to love them at all. Neither the Watch nor the Northmen (or anyone farther south) invades their lands and steals their goods, wives, and daughters. Jon developing compassion for them is well and good, but it is part of his singular story. Bowen Marsh and most of the Watch never had an Ygritte, or did they?

[kissdbyfire]

38 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Really. what are these negative things you imagine i say about him? 

10, 000 dollars to the charity of your choice if you can find such a post from me. 

at this stage i think you may have confused me for someone else

how is it a bad light? have you actually read the series? Jon killing a man because he killed his father is hardly in the top 100 worst things that have happened in the series., not even close. 

pointing out that he is human is not presenting him in a bad light. the majority of the people on this board would have made the same emotional decision that jon did. 

That is your prerogative, just seems very bizarre.  The fact that people with differing opinions, about a fictional characters of a fictional universe, to yourself actually scares you says a lot more about you than it does anyone else. 

I have no idea what you're on about here. Read back, you will see I never, not once, claimed you had said anything specific. I said there's been a ridiculous amount of Jon hate threads lately, and that I knew you'd seen and participated in them. Which is a fact, so did I and tons of other people. 

[Clegane'sPup]

Story wise why did Slynt think he had authority at the Wall?

Once a LC dies the men of the NW do a choosing.

Yet, once Slynt arrived at CB he acted like he was in charge.

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody said it wasn't in his power. The question it whether it was a just action. Or even a necessary action. And the answer to that is pretty clear: It was not.

Jon was certainly in the right to neutralize Slynt. But killing him is pretty harsh and sort of ... well, biased, considering his history. One does not hope to receive a sentence from a judge with as 'neutral' a disposition as Jon Snow...

One also has to keep in mind that this is a world run by the nobles. Meaning that you do treat nobles 'more equal' than common men. Commoners are drawn and quartered or hanged whereas nobles can demand trials-by-combat or the honor of being beheaded, etc. Nobles don't end in crow cages either, etc.

Janos Slynt was the Lord of Harrenhal when he took the black. He was a great lord of the Realm and could, as such, demand a certain amount of respect. 

But in the end the issue with Jon is just that he was too harsh too early and then did nothing to clean out the stable afterwards. The true danger was Marsh, as it turned out, not Slynt or Thorne. If you give your enemies cause to resent you even more (or even cause resentment among other men simply because you deliver harsh sentences) then you should better see to it that your own men - men you can trust and count upon - to hold all important offices. But Jon did nothing of that sort. That was most unwise.

Janos abandoned all his privileges when he took the black and swore the oath.

Quote

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

Jon was giving him command of a castle and I can't see how that can be publicly consider disrespect.

We can argue if the execution was too harsh or not, but there is not much evidence that Janos' fate had major negative (or positive) consequences.

Jon not realising the danger posed by Marsh's xenophobia is a separate matter.