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Damsel in Distress

The execution of Janos Slynt was personal and it was not justice.

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On 7/18/2018 at 5:40 PM, Ygrain said:

For those who maintain that Jon was in the wrong: can you please entertain me and answer one question?

Why does Stannis nod at Jon after the execution?

Stannis Baratheon is the Mr. UnEthical of Westeros.  An endorsement from him is the equivalent of getting a pat on the back from a tyrant.   

21 hours ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

Guess how long it took me to browse through all of the comments!  I am impressed with the stamina of the forum members.   The only contribution I can make is to give my opinion and where appropriate my advise on how the matter should have been managed.  

Slynt's Insubordination versus Jon's Sword

I believe the watch is lenient and tolerant.  The Order is made up of men.  Testosterone is in the air.  Outbursts are tolerated or leniently punished because it's men blowing off steam.  Jon's attempted killing of Ser Alliser is an extreme outbursts but it was leniently dealt with and nobody seemed very surprised.  This is a place for men where such things happen between men.  Janos' insubordination is less offensive compared to what Jon did.  Did anybody respect Ser Alliser less because Jon tried to kill him?  I don't think so.  It's just plain silly assumption from the readers to think Jon will be less respected if he showed mercy to Janos.  He might actually win some of Janos' supporters by showing he can be fair.  

Jon is an emotional time bomb with a short fuse.

Jon has a dangerous and violent temper.  He's like a pressurized container of anger and rage.  We first saw this during Robert's visit to Winterfell during the chapter scene in the dining halls.  He is way more volatile than his Uncle Brandon Stark.  At least Brandon can control his urge to finish off Petyr.  

Jon is an emotional wreck.  Which can lead support for R+L=J because a few male Targaryens have had very volatile tempers.  Jon would fit right in with the dragon males who showed emotional instability.  He knows something is wrong in his mind.  The mental wheel starts turning and he starts making all kinds of stupid justifications for why he should instead scratch his itch to do what he knows is wrong.  We witnessed this emotional issue here at Janos execution.  We see it again in the mission to find Arya.  Jon doesn't want to get Arya because it's a violation of his vows.  He sends Mance though because the wildling man doesn't bother with vows.  Jon's hand gets caught and he chooses wildlings to escort him to attack Roose Bolton.  He says in his mind "at least no one can accuse me of making my brothers betray their oaths".  Which is bull because he send brother Mance to get Arya.  Mance is still a brother of the watch.  Jon corrupted Ed Tollett when he involved the brother to carry the spear wives from Mole's Town and made him part of the mission.  

Slynt is a future threat to Jon's authority.

Maybe so but killing him is not the proper choice of action.  That only made Slynt's friends angry at Jon.  They kept silent because they feared Jon but that won't keep them from talking among themselves.  Jon didn't earn their loyalty.  Putting Slynt in confinement neutralizes his political influence.  That was all Jon needed to do.  Slynt in a cell is harmless.  There was no logical reason to kill him.  

 

Jon carries a big chip on his shoulder.  That together with his temper make him as dangerous as smoking while pumping gas in your car.   He has big emotional issues.  

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Harsh justice is justice still, i.e. the punishment is not completely out of range for the offence. Meaning, if Slynt's punishment was not only harsh but also unjust, Stannis would have had issues with it.

And in our world, people were perfectly fine with burning heretics...

Cannibalism is a huge offence against the societal taboos, a sin against the gods, and Stannis' god is R'hllor. I'd never worship such a god and I think Stannis made a huge mistake by his choice, but he had the men burnt for this reason, not out of innate cruelty or perversion like Aerys used to.

Harsh punishment can still be fair.  You will not get an argument from me on that specific belief of yours.  However, Jon doesn't dole out punishment fairly.  He killed a man who committed a minor crime, Slynt.  He forgave another man who committed the most egregious of crimes, Rayder.   That is not justice.   There is no justice when people are not treated the same.  

 

 

Edited by Soto Luzon

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6 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Refusing to follow a direct order, twice, and gross insubordination, in the medieval penal battalion during a war for the very survival of humanity, is not a "minor" offense. It's a pretty major one. 

Alright but so is desertion (Jon and Mance Rayder).  So is attacking your Order with a huge pack of wildlings (Mance).  Jon didn't execute Mance.   I call that a travesty to justice by Jon Snow.

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1 hour ago, Captain Dietrich said:

Stannis Baratheon is the Mr. UnEthical of Westeros.  An endorsement from him is the equivalent of getting a pat on the back from a tyrant. 

Funny how you and the author have such widely different opinions on the character. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm sorry, but that is not clear at all. the chapter begins with him fantasizing about it. 

Jon slid the oilcloth down his bastard sword, watching the play of morning light across the ripples, thinking how easily the blade would slide through skin and fat and sinew to part Slynt's ugly head from his body. All of a man's crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well.

Personally I don't know how anyone can read the above and not come to the conclusion that Jon wanted him dead, but the fact that this is now 15 pages long with many people taking up both sides we should probably stop saying Jon's motives on this are clear (though I know I probably have done so)

I'm sorry, but no, this is not how the chapter begins. The chapter begins with all sorts of foreshadowing of what's to come.

This is how ADWD/Jon chapter 2 chapter begins:

Jon Snow read the letter over until the words began to blur and run together. I cannot sign this. I will not sign this.

He almost burned the parchment then and there. Instead he took a sip of ale, the dregs of the half cup that remained from his solitary supper the night before. I have to sign it. They chose me to be their lord commander. The Wall is mine, and the Watch as well. The Night’s Watch takes no part.

It was a relief when Dolorous Edd Tollett opened the door to tell him that Gilly was without. Jon set Maester Aemon’s letter aside. “I will see her.” He dreaded this. “Find Sam for me. I will want to speak with him next.”

“He’ll be down with the books. My old septon used to say that books are dead men talking. Dead men should keep quiet, is what I say. No one wants to hear a dead man’s yabber.” Dolorous Edd went off muttering of worms and spiders.

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.” Though a wife and mother, Gilly still seemed half a child to him, a slender little thing wrapped up in one of Sam’s old cloaks. The cloak was so big on her that she could have hidden several other girls beneath its folds. “The babes are well?” he asked her.

The wildling girl smiled timidly from under her cowl. “Yes, m’lord. I was scared I wouldn’t have milk enough for both, but the more they suck, the more I have. They’re strong.”

“I have something hard to tell you.” He almost said ask, but caught himself at the last instant.

“Is it Mance? Val begged the king to spare him. She said she’d let some kneeler marry her and never slit his throat if only Mance could live. That Lord o’Bones, he’s to be spared. Craster always swore he’d kill him if he ever showed his face about the keep. Mance never did half the things he done.”

All Mance ever did was lead an army down upon the realm he once swore to protect. “Mance said our words, Gilly. Then he turned his cloak, wed Dalla, and crowned himself King-Beyond-the-Wall. His life is in the king’s hands now. It’s not him we need to talk about. It’s his son. Dalla’s boy.”

“The babe?” Her voice trembled. “He never broke no oath, m’lord. He sleeps and cries and sucks, is all; he’s never done no harm to no one. Don’t let her burn him. Save him, please.”

Martin, George R. R.. George R. R. Martin's A Game of Thrones 5-Book Boxed Set (Song of Ice and Fire Series): A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, and A Dance with Dragons (Kindle Locations 66104-66124). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

And then it ends like this:

“If the boy thinks that he can frighten me, he is mistaken,” they heard Lord Janos said. “He would not dare to hang me. Janos Slynt has friends, important friends, you’ll see …” The wind whipped away the rest of his words.

This is wrong, Jon thought. “Stop.”

Emmett turned back, frowning. “My lord?”

“I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.”

“Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out. The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw.

By the time a suitable chopping block was found, Lord Janos had retreated into the winch cage, but Iron Emmett went in after him and dragged him out. “No,” Slynt cried, as Emmett half-shoved and half-pulled him across the yard. “Unhand me … you cannot … when Tywin Lannister hears of this, you will all rue—

Emmett kicked his legs out from under him. Dolorous Edd planted a foot on his back to keep him on his knees as Emmett shoved the block beneath his head. “This will go easier if you stay still,” Jon Snow promised him. “Move to avoid the cut, and you will still die, but your dying will be uglier. Stretch out your neck, my lord.” The pale morning sunlight ran up and down his blade as Jon clasped the hilt of the bastard sword with both hands and raised it high. “If you have any last words, now is the time to speak them,” he said, expecting one last curse.

Janos Slynt twisted his neck around to stare up at him. “Please, my lord. Mercy. I’ll … I’ll go, I will, I …”

No, thought Jon. You closed that door. Longclaw descended.

“Can I have his boots?” asked Owen the Oaf, as Janos Slynt’s head went rolling across the muddy ground. “They’re almost new, those boots. Lined with fur.”

Jon glanced back at Stannis. For an instant their eyes met. Then the king nodded and went back inside his tower.

Martin, George R. R.. George R. R. Martin's A Game of Thrones 5-Book Boxed Set (Song of Ice and Fire Series): A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, and A Dance with Dragons (Kindle Locations 66438-66457). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

What you are quoting as the beginning of the chapter is actually about partway through a paragraph that is about 3/4 of the way through the entire chapter. The larger picture of what you quoted shows Janos starting with insubordination, however, you can see that Jon was attempting to both remove Janos from further plotting while also using Janos and whatever skills he brought with him from his time down in King's Landing:

“I mean to garrison all of them, in time,” said Jon, “but for the moment, it will just be Icemark and Greyguard.” “And has m’lord decided who’s to command at Greyguard?”

“Janos Slynt,” said Jon. Gods save us. “A man does not rise to command of the gold cloaks without ability. Slynt was born a butcher’s son. He was captain of the Iron Gate when Manly Stokeworth died, and Jon Arryn raised him up and put the defense of King’s Landing into his hands. Lord Janos cannot be as great a fool as he seems.” And I want him well away from Alliser Thorne.

“Might be that’s so,” said Giant, “but I’d still send him to the kitchens to help Three-Finger Hobb cut up the turnips.”

If I did, I’d never dare to eat another turnip.

Half the morning passed before Lord Janos reported as commanded. Jon was cleaning Longclaw. Some men would have given that task to a steward or a squire, but Lord Eddard had taught his sons to care for their own weapons. When Kegs and Dolorous Edd arrived with Slynt, Jon thanked them and bid Lord Janos sit.

That he did, albeit with poor grace, crossing his arms, scowling, and ignoring the naked steel in his lord commander’s hands. Jon slid the oilcloth down his bastard sword, watching the play of morning light across the ripples, thinking how easily the blade would slide through skin and fat and sinew to part Slynt’s ugly head from his body. All of a man’s crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well.

“Lord Janos.” Jon sheathed his sword. “I am giving you command of Greyguard.”

That took Slynt aback. “Greyguard … Greyguard was where you climbed the Wall with your wildling friends …”

“It was. The fort is in a sorry state, admittedly. You will restore it as best you can. Start by clearing back the forest. Steal stones from the structures that have collapsed to repair those still standing.” The work will be hard and brutal, he might have added. You’ll sleep on stone, too exhausted to complain or plot, and soon you’ll forget what it was like to be warm, but you might remember what it was to be a man. “You will have thirty men. Ten from here, ten from the Shadow Tower, and ten lent to us by King Stannis.”

Slynt’s face had turned the color of a prune. His meaty jowls began to quiver. “Do you think I cannot see what you are doing? Janos Slynt is not a man to be gulled so easily. I was charged with the defense of King’s Landing when you were soiling your swaddling clothes. Keep your ruin, bastard.”

I am giving you a chance, my lord. It is more than you ever gave my father. “You mistake me, my lord,” Jon said. “That was a command, not an offer. It is forty leagues to Greyguard. Pack up your arms and armor, say your farewells, and be ready to depart at first light on the morrow.”

“No.” Lord Janos lurched to his feet, sending his chair crashing over backwards. “I will not go meekly off to freeze and die. No traitor’s bastard gives commands to Janos Slynt! I am not without friends, I warn you.

Martin, George R. R.. George R. R. Martin's A Game of Thrones 5-Book Boxed Set (Song of Ice and Fire Series): A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, and A Dance with Dragons (Kindle Locations 66374-66401). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

It seems you are in great dislike of how the author has structured his own story because you maybe would have done it differently and drawn out this micro-sized subplot to include all of the results you prefer. That's ok because believe it or not there are several people in the fandom that actually openly dislike the way Martin has concluded his sub-plots like the purple wedding poisoner and the cat's paw attempt at Bran... and maybe a few others.

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50 minutes ago, Captain Dietrich said:

Alright but so is desertion (Jon and Mance Rayder).  So is attacking your Order with a huge pack of wildlings (Mance).  Jon didn't execute Mance.   I call that a travesty to justice by Jon Snow.

You think Jon's arc is finished? Jon addresses the issue with Mance several times in ADWD.

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3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

It seems you are in great dislike of how the author has structured his own story 

No, not all.  

39 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Funny how you and the author have such widely different opinions on the character. 

As  far as I know GRRM considers Stannis an incredibly righteous individual, which is true, there are few characters who are so sure of themselves but I don't recall him ever praising Stannis' ethics. Do you happen to have that quote? 

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is not really clear and given how much time had passed between these two chapters, about a week,

I'm butting in ---- what happened before those two chapters

Slynt does like to bluster as exhibited in the below quote. .

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion II    Once Janos Slynt realized he was not to be summarily executed, color returned to his face. He thrust his jaw out. "We will see about this, Imp. Dwarf. Perhaps it will be you on that ship, what do you think of that? Perhaps it will be you on the Wall." He gave a bark of anxious laughter. "You and your threats, well, we will see. I am the king's friend, you know. We shall hear what Joffrey has to say about this. And Littlefinger and the queen, oh, yes. Janos Slynt has a good many friends. We will see who goes sailing, I promise you. Indeed we will."/

Tyrion sends Janos to the Wall. Then I guess the ravens start flapping. Marsh is begging for men. Pycelle speaks up in the below quote while in conversation with Tywin & Tyrion.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV    The Wall is a world apart, and news oft reaches them late." Pycelle bobbed his head up and down. "What shall I tell Marsh concerning the men he begs for? Shall we convene the council . . ."     "There is no need. The Night's Watch is a pack of thieves, killers, and baseborn churls, but it occurs to me that they could prove otherwise, given proper discipline. If Mormont is indeed dead, the black brothers must choose a new Lord Commander."     Pycelle gave Tyrion a sly glance. "An excellent thought, my lord. I know the very man. Janos Slynt."/

To my way of thinking the fix is in. I dunna know how the raven flapping fix is in but it appears while Janos is at East Watch there was some hanky panky between the IT & the NW. 

Slynt and his troupe minus Deem, had been at EW long enough for Thorne's ship to arrive from KL. This is where my confusion starts ---- Slynt was sent to the Wall in disgrace by Tyrion. BUT Pycelle has suggested to Tywin that Slynt would be a good LC.

So far I have mentioned book 2 & 3 up until the time Slynt actually arrived at CB.  For some reason Slynt thinks he has authority to command the NW and the NW allow it. Why did the NW allow Slynt to be the cock of the walk?

A Storm of Swords - Jon X    "That old maester says I cannot hang you," Slynt declared. "He has written Cotter Pyke, and even had the bloody gall to show me the letter. He says you are no turncloak."   "Aemon's lived too long, my lord," Ser Alliser assured him. "His wits have gone dark as his eyes.

Aemon wrote ( ravens flapping) Pyke, the commander at EW that Slynt is trying to hang Jon Snow???? :eek:

Iffin's you can explain to me where Slynt got his authority --- how it is that Slynt could waltz into CB and place Jon Snow under arrest it would be helpful.

In this story, giving what is transpiring, yes, when Jon Snow was elected LC (with the wheeling and dealing of Aemon and Sam) LC Snow was within the limits to kill Slynt.

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Dietrich said:

 

Jon carries a big chip on his shoulder.  That together with his temper make him as dangerous as smoking while pumping gas in your car.   He has big emotional issues. 

 

Hah! You think Jon has a "chip on his shoulder"? You can plainly see from this passage below that people like Slynt and Throne have always been against Jon, even plotting three times to kill him, all because Slynt and Thorne cannot leave their past lives behind. Basically, those two started it with Jon and exacerbated the situation greatly.

Just adding, this is in the same chapter right after Jon meets Slynt for the first time ever.

A Storm of Swords/ Jon XII

“I never said that,” Jon insisted.

Slynt slammed a fist on the table. “I heard you! Ser Alliser had your measure true enough, it seems. You lie through your bastard’s teeth. Well, I will not suffer it. I will not! You might have fooled this crippled blacksmith, but not Janos Slynt! Oh, no. Janos Slynt does not swallow lies so easily. Did you think my skull was stuffed with cabbage?”

“I don’t know what your skull is stuffed with. My lord.”

“Lord Snow is nothing if not arrogant,” said Ser Alliser. “He murdered Qhorin just as his fellow turncloaks did Lord Mormont. It would not surprise me to learn that it was all part of the same fell plot. Benjen Stark may well have a hand in all this as well. For all we know, he is sitting in Mance Rayder’s tent even now. You know these Starks, my lord.”

“I do,” said Janos Slynt. “I know them too well.”

Jon peeled off his glove and showed them his burned hand. “I burned my hand defending Lord Mormont from a wight. And my uncle was a man of honor. He would never have betrayed his vows.”

“No more than you?” mocked Ser Alliser.

Septon Cellador cleared his throat. “Lord Slynt,” he said, “this boy refused to swear his vows properly in the sept, but went beyond the Wall to say his words before a heart tree. His father’s gods, he said, but they are wildling gods as well.”

“They are the gods of the north, Septon.” Maester Aemon was courteous, but firm. “My lords, when Donal Noye was slain, it was this young man Jon Snow who took the Wall and held it, against all the fury of the north. He has proved himself valiant, loyal, and resourceful. Were it not for him, you would have found Mance Rayder sitting here when you arrived, Lord Slynt. You are doing him a great wrong. Jon Snow was Lord Mormont’s own steward and squire. He was chosen for that duty because the Lord Commander saw much promise in him. As do I.”

“Promise?” said Slynt. “Well, promise may turn false. Qhorin Halfhand’s blood is on his hands. Mormont trusted him, you say, but what of that? I know what it is to be betrayed by men you trusted. Oh, yes. And I know the ways of wolves as well.” He pointed at Jon’s face. “Your father died a traitor.”

“My father was murdered.” Jon was past caring what they did to him, but he would not suffer any more lies about his father.

Slynt purpled. “Murder? You insolent pup. King Robert was not even cold when Lord Eddard moved against his son.” He rose to his feet; a shorter man than Mormont, but thick about the chest and arms, with a gut to match. A small gold spear tipped with red enamel pinned his cloak at the shoulder. “Your father died by the sword, but he was highborn, a King’s Hand. For you, a noose will serve. Ser Alliser, take this turncloak to an ice cell.”

“My lord is wise.” Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm.

Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor. He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off. Thorne staggered back, rubbing the marks Jon’s fingers had left on his neck. “You see for yourselves, brothers. The boy is a wildling.”

Martin, George R. R.. George R. R. Martin's A Game of Thrones 5-Book Boxed Set (Song of Ice and Fire Series): A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, and A Dance with Dragons (Kindle Locations 45636-45662). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

As  far as I know GRRM considers Stannis an incredibly righteous individual, which is true, there are few characters who are so sure of themselves but I don't recall him ever praising Stannis' ethics. Do you happen to have that quote?

I am not sure I understand your question here... being "righteous" doesn't mean being assertive, or sure of oneself. Being righteous actually means being an ethical individual, one who believes in doing the morally right thing. 

But don't take my word for it. Here's how the Cambridge Dictionary defines both "righteous" and "ethics":

ethic noun 

UK  /ˈeθ.ɪk/ US /ˈeθ.ɪk/
C2 [ C usually plural ] system of accepted beliefs that control behaviour, especially such a system based on morals
the (Protestant) work ethic
The ethics of journalism are much debated.
He said he was bound by a scientist's code of ethics.
Publication of the article was a breach of ethics.
ethics C2 [ U ]
the study of what is morally right and what is not

 

And then righteous:

 

righteous adjective 
US  /ˈrɑɪ·tʃəs/
 

behaving in a morally correctway, or considered morallycorrect

a righteous man

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

much in his thoughts that Jon was sad about his death, nor did he spend a great deal of time coming up with the punishment for his crime or that he even acknowledged that death was an option before he sentenced him 

Who said Jon has to be sad? I'd say he was more frustrated than anything:

Quote

He still sees me as a boy, Jon thought, a green boy, to be cowed by angry words.

He could only hope that a night's sleep would bring Lord Janos to his senses.

The next morning proved that hope was vain.

He didn't want to kill him. End of story. But he felt he had to because of the severity of his insubordination and the threat of his undermining his authority by stirring mutiny.

As to time, I'm pretty sure that when Jon decided to offer Greyguard, he pondered what he would do if Slynt refused him, and considered different levels of refusal -- from politely declining to professing himself not up to the task to cursing him to making a big show of refusing to do as he was ordered in public. It seems obvious that Jon's hope was in part motivated by the fact that he had concluded that in all likelihood he would have to kill Slynt.

Quote

That i s not justice, a split second to go from a week in a cell to death is arbitrary at best.

I don't think this is a split second of his considering alternates in any serious way. It's a split second of again going over possibilities he had already rejected because of the problems they each provided him. And why was he thinking of them again in that moment? Because, again, he didn't really want to kill him since he could have been useful to the Watch. But he could see no way of making him useful, and certainly no way to do that without undermining his own position of authority.

Ultimately the characters continue thinking and acting off-page. Just as Slynt had an evening to consider what to do, Jon had an evening to ponder how to respond to Slynt if he refused again to do as he was told.

 

ETA: FWIW, GRRM's remark on Stannis's righteousness is wholly from the perspective that he's the one claimant to the crown who wants to defend Westeros from the Others. I don't think George considers Stannis either incredibly righteous OR incredibly unethical.

Edited by Ran

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Yup, that's how far down this dumbass thread has sunk.

Now Jon is in the wrong and a throughly bad guy because he is not sad about killing Slynt.  :rolleyes:

 

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5 hours ago, Ran said:

and this after Jon welcomed him, offered him a seat, and informed him that he was to command a fort with thirty men under him.

4 hours ago, Ran said:

proceeded to politely welcome him after Slynt refused to appear at first light,

Yes, a polite welcome, indeed. With naked steel in his hand, fantasizing about how nice and simple it'd be to cut the man's head off.

"That he did, albeit with poor grace, crossing his arms, scowling, and ignoring the naked steel in his lord commander's hands. Jon slid the oilcloth down his bastard sword, watching the play of morning light across the ripples, thinking how easily the blade would slide through skin and fat and sinew to part Slynt's ugly head from his body."

"Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword."

"Olyvar Frey offered it up hilt first, and her son drew the blade and laid it bare across his knees, a threat plain for all to see."

Yes, he was already cleaning it. But he could have put it aside as soon as Slynt arrived, rather than day-dreaming about killing Slynt, long enough for him to sit down, and then some. Even if Jon didn't mean it as a threat, it obviously comes across as one. It's far from a polite welcome.

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Execution? Well, none of them are officers, who would naturally have a higher bar of behavior because they set the example for the men below them. But harsh, just the same.

I think that says it all. He wouldn't have killed other men for the same offense. He could've been harsh with Slynt, without killing him. The same as he would've been with others. The difference isn't that Slynt is an officer, it's that he murdered Jon's father.

Officers usually get a more lenient punishment, anyway. It's why they're beheaded instead of hanged, for instance, as it's considered more merciful.

There's a lot to show that Jon was avenging his father, here, including the way he killed Slynt. Not having someone kill him, but swinging the sword himself. Not only is it a direct parallel to the way Slynt killed Lord Eddard, but it's something that Ned taught Jon to do, himself. Jon's father is on his mind. It seems to me that Jon is acting more as Jon Snow, son of Eddard Stark than he is Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

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I'd like to add something that is not directly connected to the OP,  but still. Fantasing about strangling some fucking despicable eejit is not a crime. It's not even "wrong" as long as you stick to just fantasing about it.

They can actually be helpful, these murderous daydreams and fantasies, they're a good means of blowing off steam. <_<

Edited by kissdbyfire

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'd like to add something that is not directly connected to the OP,  but still. Fantasing about strangling some fucking despicable eejit is not a crime. It's not even "wrong" as long as you stick to just fantasing about it.

Yeah? But he didn't stick to just fantasizing about it. He cut the man's head off. Directly fulfilling said fantasy.

Thoughts are not a crime, though, I will heartily agree with you on that.

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2 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Yeah? But he didn't stick to just fantasizing about it. He cut the man's head off. Directly fulfilling said fantasy.

Thoughts are not a crime, though, I will heartily agree with you on that.

Yeah, but Janos was way late, Jon was already doing the blade thing, Jon sheathes his blade!, and Janos is unphased. 

Tell me, who shows self control at this meeting? 

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2 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Yeah? But he didn't stick to just fantasizing about it. He cut the man's head off. Directly fulfilling said fantasy.

Thoughts are not a crime, though, I will heartily agree with you on that.

Ooops, sorry. I should have made myself clearer... I wasn't talking about Jon (hence the first line in my post, "I'd like to add something that is not directly connected to the OP") here. It was more of a general observation.

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12 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Yeah? But he didn't stick to just fantasizing about it. He cut the man's head off.

Yes sir re in duty, the LC did do that.

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yup, that's how far down this dumbass thread has sunk.

Why read it then?  Why make so many comments in a topic you have clearly hate and have no actual interest in discussing?  Is just to be confrontational and stop others from sharing their opinions?  

Why are you trying to cause hostility on the board? 

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I am not sure I understand your question here... being "righteous" doesn't mean being assertive, or sure of oneself. Being righteous actually means being an ethical individual, one who believes in doing the morally right thing. 

But don't take my word for it. Here's how the Cambridge Dictionary defines both "righteous" and "ethics"

Definition of righteous

1: acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
2a : morally right or justifiable 
  • a righteous decision
b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality 
  • righteous indignation

 

Stannis is a 100% certain he is morally right, that his viewpoint is correct, he is righteous in that respect. but ethically he's all over the place. I doubt either GRRM or the people of Westeros would regard all his actions as ethical. 

1 hour ago, Ran said:

 

He didn't want to kill him.

If he didn't want to kill him he would not have killed him.  That is pretty simple.  He could have had him whipped, he could have had him thrown in a cell, he could have even told him what refusing his offer would mean. He was not forced into killing him, he made a decision, even when Slynt was pleading to be able to go to Greyguard.

 "If you have any last words, now is the time to speak them," he said, expecting one last curse.

Janos Slynt twisted his neck around to stare up at him. "Please, my lord. Mercy. I'll … I'll go, I will, I …"
No, thought Jon. You closed that door.
 
 
1 hour ago, Ran said:

 

 

End of story. But he felt he had to because of the severity of his insubordination

 no, that is not true. not once in the books does he think that

1 hour ago, Ran said:

 

and the threat of his undermining his authority by stirring mutiny.

i agree wholeheartedly,  when he thinks of his punishment it is the potential threat Janos could be in the future. That is not justice, to execute someone of what they may do in the future. 

1 hour ago, Ran said:

As to time, I'm pretty sure that when Jon decided to offer Greyguard, he pondered what he would do if Slynt refused him, and considered different levels of refusal -- from politely declining to professing himself not up to the task to cursing him to making a big show of refusing to do as he was ordered in public. It seems obvious that Jon's hope was in part motivated by the fact that he had concluded that in all likelihood he would have to kill Slynt.

So why, in the middle of sentencing him, does he think of the other two punishments? 

All we can judge is written in the books, and from what I have read it looks like Jon over punished a man he was fantasizing about killing before the insubordination occured. 

 

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Ultimately the characters continue thinking and acting off-page. Just as Slynt had an evening to consider what to do, Jon had an evening to ponder how to respond to Slynt if he refused again to do as he was told.

sure, but his thought process during it does not suggest that death was his forced option. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Tell me, who shows self control at this meeting? 

Neither of them, really. Between Jon taking forever to sheathe his weapon, and Slynt going full Slynt, tensions were clearly high with both of them. Both of them could have handled things far better.

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ooops, sorry. I should have made myself clearer... I wasn't talking about Jon (hence the first line in my post, "I'd like to add something that is not directly connected to the OP") here. It was more of a general observation.

Ah, fair enough, my bad. I definitely do agree. When thoughts start being outlawed, we're all in danger.

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2 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Neither of them, really. Between Jon taking forever to sheathe his weapon, and Slynt going full Slynt, tensions were clearly high with both of them. Both of them could have handled things far better.

That was roughly one paragraph that the sword was out, not exactly forever. Janos kept Jon waiting forever ;):D

The other issue with Slynt (and Thorne) is that Slynt arrived at CB already wanting to kill Jon, and Slynt arrived and buddied up with Thorne over how much they hate Starks, etc. To use the wording from upthread, Slynt arrived with a chip on his shoulder and he antagonized the situation repeatedly, way before this beheading chapter. It’s a long, playful tease of information that the author has given. 

 

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