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Was Tywin Lannister a villain?


Rosetta Stone

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I want to examine the evidence because the order of the green hand is a fan of this man.  

  1. He killed the families of the Reynes.
  2. He killed the famiies of the Tarbecks.
  3. He obeyed King Aerys II and killed the families of the Darklyns.
  4. He had Rhaegar's family killed.
  5. He ordered the sack of King's Landing.
  6. The Red Wedding was done with his approval.
  7. Tyrion's trial was rigged.  He was bedding Shae.  Tywin set up Tyrion to fall.

Can you justify any of these?  Tywin is not a villain if you can justify his actions.  I am not sure I can give him an excuse for most of his decisions but I leave that for you to discuss.  

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As @Canon Claude says, this is completely subjective. However, I do feel Tywin's dealings with the Reynes & Tarbecks may have gone a bit overboard, for one thing. Organsing the Red Wedding wasn't exactly heroic either, and I don't think anyone can justify someone attempting to sentence their own son to death.

Tywin is certainly the antagonist of Tyrion's plot arc, and Tyrion being a protagonist makes Tywin an antagonist. From a story point of view, Tywin is a critique of the ruthless politician and I suppose of realpolitik in general.

I view Tywin lying somewhere being evil. His brutality can be compared to Joffrey or Ramsay easily enough, though his methods and demeanour are wholly different. In the end though, thousands of innocents die because of Tywin's need for a legacy, and that, in my view, makes him a villain.

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45 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

One man’s villain is another man’s hero. You can’t get an objective answer to a subjective question.

 

bingo

Obviously to the Riverland people of 298 or the Martells circa 273 he was the biggest villain on the planet, to the people of the Westerlands or even the population of Westeros during his 20 years as Aerys Hand he was an effective ruler who improved many of their lives. 

He was a man of his times, though I'd argue if there is an afterlife in Westeros that excuse may not fly with the powers that be. 

 

1 hour ago, Rosetta Stone said:

 

  1. He ordered the sack of King's Landing.

Well this is kind of  a misconception, sacks happen when large settlements are being captured and no one is in control. It is an inevitability rather than an actual order

"And if the castle should fall?"
"You'd like that, wouldn't you?" Cersei did not wait for a denial. "If I'm not betrayed by my own guards, I may be able to hold here for a time. Then I can go to the walls and offer to yield to Lord Stannis in person. That will spare us the worst. But if Maegor's Holdfast should fall before Stannis can come up, why then, most of my guests are in for a bit of rape, I'd say. And you should never rule out mutilation, torture, and murder at times like these."
Sansa was horrified. "These are women, unarmed, and gently born."
 
.Their birth protects them," Cersei admitted, "though not as much as you'd think. Each one's worth a good ransom, but after the madness of battle, soldiers often seem to want flesh more than coin. Even so, a golden shield is better than none. Out in the streets, the women won't be treated near as tenderly. Nor will our servants. Pretty things like that serving wench of Lady Tanda's could be in for a lively night, but don't imagine the old and the infirm and the ugly will be spared. Enough drink will make blind washerwomen and reeking pig girls seem as comely as you, sweetling."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"And who will protect us from my guards?" The queen gave Osfryd a sideways look. "Loyal sellswords are rare as virgin whores. If the battle is lost my guards will trip on those crimson cloaks in their haste to rip them off. They'll steal what they can and flee, along with the serving men, washer women, and stableboys, all out to save their own worthless hides. Do you have any notion what happens when a city is sacked, Sansa? No, you wouldn't, would you? All you know of life you learned from singers, and there's such a dearth of good sacking songs."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

She was pleased. Meereen had been sacked savagely, as new-fallen cities always were, but Dany was determined that should end now that the city was hers. She had decreed that murderers were to be hanged, that looters were to lose a hand, and rapists their manhood.

 

Sacks are inevitable, unless Tywin wanted to wait months for them to surrender. 

 

1 hour ago, Rosetta Stone said:

 

  1. Tyrion's trial was rigged. 

How? 

Kevan believed his nephew was guilty, everyone did. all the evidence was pointing towards Tyrion. 

What evidence do you think was rigged by Tywin? 

 

1 hour ago, Rosetta Stone said:

 

  1. He was bedding Shae. 

She was a whore, he did not treat Tyrion's relationship with her as a serious relationship. 

Shae offers a service much like a baker does, Tywin is not going to stop using a certain baker just because Tyrion is confused about the nature of the relationship between prostitute and customer. 

 

1 hour ago, Rosetta Stone said:
  1.  
  2. Tywin set up Tyrion to fall.

Yeah, that is simply not true, the stakes were too high for Tywin to make Tyrion the second most powerful man in the Crown's hierarchy to want him to fail as Hand. Tywin was both hoping and counting on Tyrion to succeed. 

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6 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

I want to examine the evidence because the order of the green hand is a fan of this man.  

  1. He killed the families of the Reynes.
  2. He killed the famiies of the Tarbecks.
  3. He obeyed King Aerys II and killed the families of the Darklyns.
  4. He had Rhaegar's family killed.
  5. He ordered the sack of King's Landing.
  6. The Red Wedding was done with his approval.
  7. Tyrion's trial was rigged.  He was bedding Shae.  Tywin set up Tyrion to fall.

Can you justify any of these?  Tywin is not a villain if you can justify his actions.  I am not sure I can give him an excuse for most of his decisions but I leave that for you to discuss.  

As GRRM once said, no one is ever the villain in their own story.  Tywin is a perfect example.  From his point of view, everything he did was justified, as it strengthened either House Lannister, or Westeros as a whole.  

By the way, you have failed to mention some of his worst acts.

He sent the likes of Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, and the Brave Companions to rape, pillage and murder in the Riverlands, all because of the taking of his son Tyrion.  And their actions, which he essentially approved, were atrocious in the extreme. 

He is also responsible for the rape and degradation of Tysha, a punishment that went way over the top.

As for the OP, the Red Wedding was bad, both for ethical and practical reasons.  Principles such as guest right are there for a reason, and flouting them is going to cause trouble in the future.

I don't think he rigged Tyrion's trial.  He truly believed that his son was guilty, and nobody except Shae clearly lied on the stand, and I think that was arranged by Cersei.  Even if the trial had occurred under modern procedures, Tyrion would probably have been found guilty, as there was a mound of evidence against him.

I consider him to be a villain, but I am a fan of the Starks so that is to be expected.  But I can certainly understand why Stark-haters or Lannister fans would like him.  He does have his charms.

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7 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

I want to examine the evidence because the order of the green hand is a fan of this man.  

Are they? I didn't know but it makes perfect sense.  

7 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:
  1. He killed the families of the Reynes.
  2. He killed the famiies of the Tarbecks.
  3. He obeyed King Aerys II and killed the families of the Darklyns.
  4. He had Rhaegar's family killed.
  5. He ordered the sack of King's Landing.
  6. The Red Wedding was done with his approval.
  7. Tyrion's trial was rigged.  He was bedding Shae.  Tywin set up Tyrion to fall.

Can you justify any of these?  Tywin is not a villain if you can justify his actions.  I am not sure I can give him an excuse for most of his decisions but I leave that for you to discuss.  

Great character, beautifully written. I can't stand him. I can't justify any of the actions you list, but even less the ones you've omitted like sending the Mountain, Armory and the fucking Bloody Mumers to rape, pilage and bring destruction to the Riverlands. 

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5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Who is this Order of the Green Hand character that one or two people have referenced recently?

I hope it’s not another self declared Youtube Westeros “expert” like that Preston Jacobs charlatan.

PJ at least makes sense, in a completely absurd and out-there sort of way. I can't say the same about the Order of the Green Hand, and that's saying quite a lot. 

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6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I hope it’s not another self declared Youtube Westeros “expert” like that Preston Jacobs charlatan.

 

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

To some on this site he is the most evil ruthless character in the books. To others he is goldenboy who can do no wrong 

Sorry, I don't like to quote folks out of context, but I'm afraid this time it just seemed to write itself B) I'm surprised teh interwebz hasn't yet come up with a new version of Godwin's Law, where the first reference to a YouTuber instantly loses the argument...

But to answer the question: I'd dispute whether points 4 & 5 in the OP are actually true, although they are often laid at his feet. That aside, I'd also agree that it's a subjective question with no objective answer. Sure, he was determined and ruthless, but he wasn't capricious or cruel or corrupt to the degree many others were. He was just getting the best deal he could get for his House and the realm, as he saw it. Making Casterley Rock great again perhaps....

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8 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:
  • He killed the families of the Reynes.
  • He killed the famiies of the Tarbecks.
  • He obeyed King Aerys II and killed the families of the Darklyns.
  • He had Rhaegar's family killed.
  • He ordered the sack of King's Landing.
  • The Red Wedding was done with his approval.
  • Tyrion's trial was rigged.  He was bedding Shae.  Tywin set up Tyrion to fall.

Ok, three things.

1. Nowhere is stated that Tywin slaughtered Darklyns.

2. There is no evidence that he ordered the sack.

3. Cersei set up Tyrion.

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

To some on this site he is the most evil ruthless character in the books. To others he is goldenboy who can do no wrong 

And there are ones who don't consider him either 

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He ordered the gang rape of a young county girl who seemed to care about his son. He told lies to his son and had soldiers gang rape her in front of this young son who had loved her and married her. Then, he manipulated his own son to participate, and his other son to collude. This behavior is cruelty on steroids. In the end, his many cruelties to Tyrion got him killed in a nasty way.

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11 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

I want to examine the evidence because the order of the green hand is a fan of this man.  

  1. He killed the families of the Reynes.
  2. He killed the famiies of the Tarbecks.
  3. He obeyed King Aerys II and killed the families of the Darklyns.
  4. He had Rhaegar's family killed.
  5. He ordered the sack of King's Landing.
  6. The Red Wedding was done with his approval.
  7. Tyrion's trial was rigged.  He was bedding Shae.  Tywin set up Tyrion to fall.

Can you justify any of these?  Tywin is not a villain if you can justify his actions.  I am not sure I can give him an excuse for most of his decisions but I leave that for you to discuss.  

The Order of the Greenhand is one of the best talk shows on ASOIAF on youtube.  I agree with some of their ideas but not all of them.  And Dave's man crush on Tywin is subjective.  

Tywin is not alone in destroying a vassal.  Hoster Tully did the same thing to the Goodbrooks for staying loyal to their king, for the love of god!  The Goodbrooks lost their lands for doing what they were supposed to do!  So if Tywin is a bad man, Hoster is an evil man.  

Denis Darklyn rebelled and took his king prisoner.  

Tywin is a bad man but he can do a good job of managing Westeros.  You don't hire someone because they're nice.  You hire them to run the kingdom because they can do the job.  

That was distasteful, the murder of Rhaegar's wife and children.  No excuse.  

Sacking the city is part of a conscripted army's compensation.  Can we say with any confidence that the northmen would not do the same if they had gotten there first?  Only the Unsullied are guaranteed not to sack the city.

The RW got rid of a pesky rebel in such a way as to avoid large casualties in human lives.

Tywin was a hypocrite for bedding Shae.   

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He was a petty, vindictive, maniac whose main talent lies in PR management and has a hard-on for the Mountain. In truth he and Cersei are very much alike (along with Tyrion, for that matter). They are motivated by resentment and spite. The main difference is that Tywin was capable of being patient.

That said he is an utterly fascinating character much like his offspring and I would be very interested in the story of his ascencion. It would be very much like the Godfather. His demise at the hands of his son was unsatisfactory in some respects; disgrace would have been much more fitting than death. No wonder he was laughing at his bier.

Well, life and Martin are not fair.

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Yes, he abused Tyrion, ordered mass killings, encouraged pillage and rape, had a child gang raped etc. He's a villain and should be acknowledged as one. You can still like him as a character but it's clear George didn't write him to be one of those grey characters. 

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19 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Yes, he abused Tyrion,

Not from his societies perspective, in actual fact Tywin may well be the best noble father a dwarf has ever had in Westeros

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ordered mass killings,

every medieval  military leader who has gone to war has done the same. 

Quote

encouraged pillage and rape,

every medieval  military leader who has gone to war has done the same

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had a child gang raped etc.

she was 14 and, awfully, in their world would have been ok with her having sex

GRRM is very clear about the world  he has created

 

GRRM: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

Quote

 

He's a villain and should be acknowledged as one.

He is a person capable of evil actions, just like the many real life people in power throughout history, one of the consequences of power is that decisions that are made will hurt others. 

But he is hardly evil or a villain, his original term as Hand was 20 years of peace and prosperity, he brought order to the Westerlands in his youth and it had seen peace for the next forty years. 

He was forced into a war due to the actions of his adult children, but he had zero intention of losing and wining wars and the gloves come off when war is involved. 

Quote

 

You can still like him as a character but it's clear George didn't write him to be one of those grey characters. 

It is kind of clear he did, otherwise there would be not so many of these discussions in the fandom.  This forum alone has thousands of posts on the nature of Tywin, you simply don't get that on characters like the Mountain, Ramsay, Vargo or Lorch. 

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22 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

I want to examine the evidence because the order of the green hand is a fan of this man.  

  1. He killed the families of the Reynes.
  2. He killed the famiies of the Tarbecks.
  3. He obeyed King Aerys II and killed the families of the Darklyns.
  4. He had Rhaegar's family killed.
  5. He ordered the sack of King's Landing.
  6. The Red Wedding was done with his approval.
  7. Tyrion's trial was rigged.  He was bedding Shae.  Tywin set up Tyrion to fall.

Can you justify any of these?  Tywin is not a villain if you can justify his actions.  I am not sure I can give him an excuse for most of his decisions but I leave that for you to discuss.  

Hard but il try

1 2 and 3 were brutal but supressions of rebellions usualy are ..for all the ugliness of the reynes etc the westerlands stayed very stable as a result

 

4)true but they pretty much had to die..no getting around that

5)he chose a side and was always gonna sack a city..aerys trust meant no siege was needed but lets be honest if hed stayed at home ned would have had to besiege the city and when breached it woulda been sacked regardless

6)ended a war very neatly  one of his few very defendable actions 

Moraly speaking it saved far far more lives than it cost 

7)tyrions trial wasnt rigged he just looked incredibly guilty given he and joffs obvious hatred and public arguments and all the people tyrion had beefs with , it wasnt exactly a modern court with modern justice so woulda been hard to aqquit him given how toxic the court and public was against him.

Tywin was basicaly trying placed in position where he had to chose tyrion or cersei (and her kids) he chose her ,for all we know the nights watch  or some other exile was on the table 

As for banging shae she was a whore and nothing wrong with it, he was discreet as tyrion shoulda been. We can hate shae for betraying our fav lil imp but lets be honest he fell for a whore that was just using him  and thats never smart

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On 7/14/2018 at 11:43 AM, Rosetta Stone said:

I want to examine the evidence because the order of the green hand is a fan of this man.  

  1. He killed the families of the Reynes.
  2. He killed the famiies of the Tarbecks.
  3. He obeyed King Aerys II and killed the families of the Darklyns.
  4. He had Rhaegar's family killed.
  5. He ordered the sack of King's Landing.
  6. The Red Wedding was done with his approval.
  7. Tyrion's trial was rigged.  He was bedding Shae.  Tywin set up Tyrion to fall.

Can you justify any of these?  Tywin is not a villain if you can justify his actions.  I am not sure I can give him an excuse for most of his decisions but I leave that for you to discuss.  

He's a villain but he didn't deserve to get murdered on the toilet.  By the Tyrion who spent most of his life spending Tywin's money like he had credit unlimited.  Tyrion had nothing without his family money.  

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