Jump to content

Was Tywin Lannister a villain?


Rosetta Stone

Recommended Posts

After proudly dispatching the Reynes and Tarbecks when he was young, and promoting that catchy tune commemorating his great deeds, it seems as if Tywin has become much more careful to keep his hands clean - at least, to a superficial view. Note that

  • He assures Tyrion that he had no idea Gregor Clegane would kill Elia, much less the brutality of the way he killed Aegon, the babe at her breast. Tywin presumes to be shocked that Amory Lorch would brutally stab a little girl, instead of "mercifully" suffocating her. All these crocodile tears should be considered suspect; Tyrion knows better, but Tywin has put himself "on record" as innocent.
  • Tywin uses Tyrion's kidnapping as a cover story for unleashing bloody terrorism against - the Riverlands? Seriously? What's the purpose of that? Moreover, it's obviously a lame excuse, because the world knows Tywin doesn't give a rat's arse for his dwarf son.
  • Tywin also keeps repeating the obvious lie that the Red Wedding was only "one man being killed at dinner" and therefore no big deal. We, the readers, know that it was Robb Stark's entire army, 10,000 or more men, plus his lord bannermen and knights who died. But Tywin keeps minimizing it, so that his role in the atrocity is minimized.

Tywin Lannister is a hateful character, with no displayed affection for his own offspring. But you have to grant that he's good at the game and can admire his style. His interactions with Mad King Joffrey, for example. Having "the king" put to bed with a sedative when he acts up. Riding his horse up to the Iron Throne and having it take a dump, which Joffrey has to step around. Har!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, zandru said:

After proudly dispatching the Reynes and Tarbecks when he was young, and promoting that catchy tune commemorating his great deeds,

The fact that Tywin prevented a war due to a song makes him sound unlike a villain. 

Quote

 

 

  • He assures Tyrion that he had no idea Gregor Clegane would kill Elia, much less the brutality of the way he killed Aegon, the babe at her breast. Tywin presumes to be shocked that Amory Lorch would brutally stab a little girl, instead of "mercifully" suffocating her. All these crocodile tears should be considered suspect; Tyrion knows better, but Tywin has put himself "on record" as innocent.

Gregor was 17 years of age when that happened, it is hardly out of the realms of possibility that Tywin did not understand what he was. Rhaegar, the man who knighted him, likely didn't either. 

Quote
  • Tywin uses Tyrion's kidnapping as a cover story for unleashing bloody terrorism against - the Riverlands?

How is that a cover story? 

Quote
  •  
  • Seriously? What's the purpose of that?

To have his son released, that one should be pretty clear. 

Why on earth do you think he sends Gregor? For shits and giggles? 

 

Quote

 

  • Moreover, it's obviously a lame excuse, because the world knows Tywin doesn't give a rat's arse for his dwarf son.

Except he clearly does, he might not like his son but Tywin clearly cares for all Lannisters.  He is not going to allow his son to be abducted. 

Quote
  • Tywin also keeps repeating the obvious lie that the Red Wedding was only "one man being killed at dinner"

Keeps repeating? He says it once, and he does not say one man killed at dinner he says a dozen so I have no idea why you have quotation marks around a quote that you made up. 

Quote
  •  
  • and therefore no big deal.

eh, he clearly does not say is is no big deal nor does he mean that, what he means is that it will bring an end to the war, which it pretty much did, meaning less death in the long run. 

Quote
  •  
  • We, the readers, know that it was Robb Stark's entire army, 10,000 or more men,

We, the readers know that there was less than that, there was 7,000 Northmen at the Red Wedding, 3,500 for Robb and 3,500 against him with Roose. 

We., the readers, also know that the Northern army was not actually in the Twins for the Red Wedding, they were not Walder's guests, he is quite pointed about not offering them food or shelter under his roof thus not offering the army the protection of guests rights. 

So while it was likely more than dozen deaths at the dinner in the Twins it was not the exaggeration you think it was. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Does anyone even have to ask this? Really. 

Tywin is one of the clearest Villains in the story. He's a brilliant character but he's not a good guy. 

I don't think anyone is arguing that he is a good guy, but obviously rulers throughout history were neither hero or villain and the majority of the Lords in the series are neither hero or villain. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

I don't think anyone is arguing that he is a good guy, but obviously rulers throughout history were neither hero or villain and the majority of the Lords in the series are neither hero or villain. 

He's a villain. He did atrocious things because he has a fragile ego. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

He's a villain. He did atrocious things because he has a fragile ego. 

That is not why he did atrocious things. 

I guess it may be easier to think that, that the many, many awful deeds done throughout history were done because people were 'villains' but often it was not the case. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Bernie Mac said:

That is not why he did atrocious things. 

I guess it may be easier to think that, that the many, many awful deeds done throughout history were done because people were 'villains' but often it was not the case. 

Hmm, yes it is why he did atrocious things. Tywin is a man ruled by his pride, the choice of a lion for the houses sigil was no accident. Pride is a major theme in Tywins story. 

Ryene's and Tarbecks. Pride he was embarrassed by his fathers weakness.

Walk of shame for his fathers mistress. Pride he felt she needed bringing down a peg or two for getting above her station. 

Tysha's rape. Pride he thought she was too low born to be a Lannister's wife.

Murder of Rhaenys and her children. Pride he resented her being chosen over Cersei.

Sending the Mountain into the RL's. Pride he was affronted that Cat dared take his son.

Red Wedding. Pride he was upset that Robb kept beating him in the field. 

In all these things Tywins ego did the decision making. 

That last bits a bit of a leap in it? I mean talk about sweeping assumptions. 

I'm not assessing the real events and people of history I'm assessing a literary character. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Hmm, yes it is why he did atrocious things. Tywin is a man ruled by his pride, the choice of a lion for the houses sigil was no accident. Pride is a major theme in Tywins story. 

I don't disagree that Tywin id prideful, but I there was more motivations that pride. 

Quote

Ryene's and Tarbecks. Pride he was embarrassed by his fathers weakness.

You might be missing parts of the story, the Reynes killed Tywin's grandfather only a few years before, they were repeatedly given the chance to surrender and chose to rebel, their fate was in their own hands and they chose war. 

Quote

Walk of shame for his fathers mistress. Pride he felt she needed bringing down a peg or two for getting above her station. 

Yup, as well as the fact that she had taken his mothers jewelry and ruled the realm, poorly, while Ttyos is alive. 

But this is part of GRRM's world, he explains there are consequences jumping out of the social standing, GRRM explains it better than I ever could

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

If the keeping the commoners in their place is villainous then all the nobility in the series are villains. 

Quote

Tysha's rape. Pride he thought she was too low born to be a Lannister's wife.

She was. That is how their entire society viewed it. 

Quote

Murder of Rhaenys and her children. Pride he resented her being chosen over Cersei.

No. Daughters don't get to decide who they marry, Tywin lives and breathes their society, there is zero reason why he would blame Elia or her children (Rhaenys was her daughter) for Aerys choice of daughter-in-law. 

He has the children killed to gain Robert's favor, which he does get as he soon becomes his father-in-law. 

Quote

Sending the Mountain into the RL's. Pride he was affronted that Cat dared take his son.

Again, all the nobles seem to react similarly when their family is on the line. Ned was legally arrested, unlike Tryion, and in response Robb raised an army and marched to war. 

Tywin's behaviour is not exactly that different to other people in power. 

Quote

Red Wedding. Pride he was upset that Robb kept beating him in the field. 

lol come on, you can do better than this. Tywin and Robb had never actually met in the field. 

The Red Wedding was motivated by Walder's desire for revenge and Roose needing to rid the North of rivals, Tywin was happy for them to do it. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He smiled when he saw Tarbeck Hall's roof collapse. He forced his fathers mistress to strip naked and walk the streets of Casterly Rock to shame her. He forced Tyrion to watch as his men gang raped Tysha, then forced Tyrion to rape her. With all of this, he went way over the top. I don't think you can rationalise such actions to say he isn't a bad guy. He is smart, and don't get me wrong I love Tywin as a character, but he is an awful, awful human being.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The fact that Tywin ... etc etc etc;      TL;DR

You have a consistently bizarre take on things. I suspect nobody can shake your beliefs.

4 hours ago, RagingThroner said:

the Beautiful of ASOIAF is the shades of grey all of the characters live in. They are all hero and villain and we love them for it. Except Ned. He was honorable and decent through and through.  

Amen, bro! Although I strongly suspect that we'll see a greyer Ned Stark in the Winds of Winter, back when he was younger and prosecuting a war. I look forward to it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He was the leader of the army that sacked the capital. Of course he ordered it, and the death of the royal family 

He is only guilty for not preventing the sack  it or punishing his men.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

He is only guilty for not preventing the sack  it or punishing his men.

He his men would not have sacked the city or killed the royal heir without his orders. Tywin is not a man who would have such a piss poor control over his troops. He ordered the sack because he saw the winning side and wanted to make a statement. It is well known to everyone in book. He just hasn't admitted it yet, and who would ever be in a position to administer the Kings justice to him? He is one step below king in terms of power.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Tywin isn’t a hateful character. He is just bitter. Imagine your best friend. Who was like a brother to you. You who trusted, and cared for. One day became jealous, and preceded to make your life a living hell. All because you are better than he was at everything. Your friend took your heir (Jamie) to be a lacky forever. Constantly humiliated, and insults you. Not to mention raping your wife. Who actually died. The one that made you smile is gone. All you have is a imp waddling around. You know he isn’t your son. You try to love the boy, but you reminded is those horrible days, and your wife that was repeatedly raped. 

Do you have proof of this rape?  And it was Cersei and Jaime's idea to get him on the KG.  Tywin himself didn't have problems.  He had stupid kids.  Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion were his problems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

people do, but they only do so with strong arguments. Not to be rude, but yours was full of holes.

 

So to be clear, we're at the point where people believe a guy who ordered -- did not need to do this -- the gang rape of a child AND THEN MADE HIS SON TAKE PART is not a villain?

He could have done literally almost anything to wash away that Tyrion marriage but his stern leadership decided gang rape was the way to go. WTF

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No more than Robb Stark(who continued a lost war that was killing thousands for vegence and was willing to sacrifice his sisters to have his war) , or Daenarys(who tried to get the Dothraki to come to Westeroes just rape and pillage  her son a throne),  or Aegon the conquer(who destroyed two houses that were opposed to him)  or Tyrion(who planned to start war that would kill thousands including his own niece to get back at Cersi-never really awknowleging all his trespasses against her as if he was purely her victim-oh and is guilty of rape and murder) or Briene(who wanted to help aid a man usurp his nephews because he was polite to her) or etc

Tywin(like many characters)  is simply ttoo complex to fall honestly fall under the labele of villian. Or hero. 

He is a lord; his very purpose is to make sure his house advances, and does not lose it's power, or has his security threatened.

Just about every seemingly brutal action he's taken has been in service to his family's well-fare and continued success.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...