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Was Tywin Lannister a villain?


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9 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He his men would not have sacked the city or killed the royal heir without his orders. Tywin is not a man who would have such a piss poor control over his troops. He ordered the sack because he saw the winning side and wanted to make a statement. It is well known to everyone in book. He just hasn't admitted it yet, and who would ever be in a position to administer the Kings justice to him? He is one step below king in terms of power.  

Yes, they wouldn't kill royal without his order.

No matter how good control someone has over his men, he isn't God. During the battle of Blackwater, Cersei told Sansa that Stannis's men would rape women in city. Cersei knows that Stan wouldn't ever ordered such thing.

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9 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

So to be clear, we're at the point where people believe a guy who ordered -- did not need to do this -- the gang rape of a child AND THEN MADE HIS SON TAKE PART is not a villain?

Why the need to get so emotional every time you feel the need to respond to me?  This mock outrage you have for my posts is getting a little tiresome, please get over it. 

I don't think Tywin was an evil person, nor do I think he frequently went out of his way to hurt others.  For the vast majority of his life he was a political leader who's rule was a benefit for the vast majority of people. 

He clearly was willing to do evil acts, but, in my opinion, does not define a person any more than someone who was willing to occasionally do good acts makes that person a saint. 

Tywin is a man of his times. 

9 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He could have done literally almost anything to wash away that Tyrion marriage but his stern leadership decided gang rape was the way to go. WTF

Yeah, it was fucked up. In your mock outrage did you imagine I thought it was a nice thing? 

The nobility of Westeros don't give a shit about the smallfolk, they barely register for them. Ned see's the crumpled up dead body of the butcher boy Mycah and is relieved that it was not his daughters new pet.  Their society has a fucked up caste system and Tywin did not create it. 

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6 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Yes, they wouldn't kill royal without his order.

No matter how good control someone has over his men, he isn't God. During the battle of Blackwater, Cersei told Sansa that Stannis's men would rape women in city. Cersei knows that Stan wouldn't ever ordered such thing.

Cersei thought that Stannis might very well kill her. There was a precedent for that set by her dad during the rebellion

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1 hour ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Tywin did it to show loyalty to Robert. If he didn't Robert would be at war with the Lannisters. Rhaegar married Lyanna. Making Elia and his children disinherited. Even if the kids survived. If anyone found out the marriage happened. Elia's kids wouldn't inherit the throne. 

There was no marriage shown to the readers s far so maybe or maybe not. even so, the first born son of Elia would still inherit the throne 

1 hour ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

 There are 5 reason why he gave the orders.

1). Show loyalty to Robert.

2). Get Cersei married to Robert.

3). Get revenge on the Targaryens.

4). Get revenge on Rhaegar for not keeping his word to marry Cersei (The Defiance of Duskendale).

5). Get Lannister blood on the throne. 

1: it isn't loyalty, it is a favor. Loyalty would have him at the Trident behind bob.
2: That was Jon Arryn but I am sure after the sack and victory, it would be a goal of his. 
3: No. If he wanted revenge he could have joined up earlier
4: Rhaegar was already dead so no. 
5:  I doubt he was thinking of that before he sack 

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11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Just about every seemingly brutal action he's taken has been in service to his family's well-fare and continued success.

 

The gang rape of Tysha seems to go way beyond the continued success of his family . She was a 14 year old orphaned peasant girl who made the mistake of marrying Tywin's son . He could have lied to Tyrion about her being a whore and scared the hell out of her and sent her to one the free cities or some remote part of Westeroes , there was no need to have her gang raped , it seems to be just an ungodly horrible act by Tywin . 

Also i wonder what Jaimie's involvement was in the gang rape ? did he know about it and just didn't care or was intimidated by his father not to interfere or did he find out about it later on ?

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1 minute ago, Blackfish Tully said:
11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

The gang rape of Tysha seems to go way beyond the continued success of his family . She was a 14 year old orphaned peasant girl who made the mistake of marrying Tywin's son . He could have lied to Tyrion about her being a whore and scared the hell out of her and sent her to one the free cities or some remote part of Westeroes , there was no need to have her gang raped , it seems to be just an ungodly horrible act by Tywin . 

This action is about his family-the lord's son marrying a peasant, would bring great shame and humiliation to house Lanister. The girl herself is immaterial.  Whose he's really trying to punish is Tyrion to show him exactly how bad he messed up this time and get the point of never doing something so stupid again-didn't work but his aim was clear. 

MThe way he went about it like the rest of his seemingly brutal actions isn't being done for some sadistic pleasure-it's being done because he genuinely thinks it is in his House's interest that he does.

You may see a far less extreme response  than what happened to Tysha as being something that will accomplish what Tywin wanted; Tywin clearly didn't.

 

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34 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This action is about his family-the lord's son marrying a peasant, would bring great shame and humiliation to house Lanister. The girl herself is immaterial.  Whose he's really trying to punish is Tyrion to show him exactly how bad he messed up this time and get the point of never doing something so stupid again-didn't work but his aim was clear. 

MThe way he went about it like the rest of his seemingly brutal actions isn't being done for some sadistic pleasure-it's being done because he genuinely thinks it is in his House's interest that he does.

You may see a far less extreme response  than what happened to Tysha as being something that will accomplish what Tywin wanted; Tywin clearly didn't.

 

That's because he is a villain and those guys never see themselves as bad.  He can justify it in his own mind so that it feels like he made the right decision.   

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14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This action is about his family-the lord's son marrying a peasant, would bring great shame and humiliation to house Lanister. The girl herself is immaterial.

It doesn't matter that it would bring shame to house Lannister. What Tywin does to Tysha is absolutely horrifying, and it's there in part to give readers insight into who Tywin is. And who he is is a man that orders the brutal gang rape of a child by his soldiers b/c of his pride. 

As to the bold, no, Tysha is not immaterial, nor should she have been immaterial to Tywin, despicable douche that he is. 

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It doesn't matter that it would bring shame to house Lannister. What Tywin does to Tysha is absolutely horrifying, and it's there in part to give readers insight into who Tywin is. And who he is is a man that orders the brutal gang rape of a child by his soldiers b/c of his pride. 

As to the bold, no, Tysha is not immaterial, nor should she have been immaterial to Tywin, despicable douche that he is. 

Don't you find it odd that such a PUBLIC action was taken by Tywin if it was just all about worrying about the shame of House Lannister?  Tywin is the one who made Tyrion's marriage such public knowledge, so it does not seem to be the smartest thing to do when it comes to preserving House Lannister's honor, does it?  It seems to me to be all about Tywin's issues with women, sex, as well as his issues with Tyrion. 

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14 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Don't you find it odd that such a PUBLIC action was taken by Tywin if it was just all about worrying about the shame of House Lannister?  Tywin is the one who made Tyrion's marriage such public knowledge, so it does not seem to be the smartest thing to do when it comes to preserving House Lannister's honor, does it?  It seems to me to be all about Tywin's issues with women, sex, as well as his issues with Tyrion. 

That's actually an excellent point! 

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why the need to get so emotional every time you feel the need to respond to me?  This mock outrage you have for my posts is getting a little tiresome, please get over it. 

It's not mock outrage. You're whitewashing horrible gang rape of a child who's only fault was falling in love with his son.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I don't think Tywin was an evil person, nor do I think he frequently went out of his way to hurt others.  For the vast majority of his life he was a political leader who's rule was a benefit for the vast majority of people. 

He clearly was willing to do evil acts, but, in my opinion, does not define a person any more than someone who was willing to occasionally do good acts makes that person a saint. 

Tywin is a man of his times. 

Yeah, it was fucked up. In your mock outrage did you imagine I thought it was a nice thing? 

That you don't think it makes him a villain in a book of fiction is telling enough. Most of Tywin's actions are not villainous unless you're a stark fanboy. However that particular order is only matched by characters who would definitely fall in the villain category (Ramsay, the Mountain, some of the mountains men, Vargo hoat's crew). Just because someone doesn't do it constantly doesn't mean it doesn't drag him down

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The nobility of Westeros don't give a shit about the smallfolk, they barely register for them. Ned see's the crumpled up dead body of the butcher boy Mycah and is relieved that it was not his daughters new pet.  Their society has a fucked up caste system and Tywin did not create it. 

You don't have to be evil to be a villain, it just helps cement the obvious. Maybe you prefer antagonist?

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Let's see. Tywin ordered the gang-rape of his teenage daughter-in-law because she had the audacity to marry above her station, broke one of the realm's most holy laws by organizing an ambush at the Red Wedding (along with the deaths of hundreds of northern soldiers), had an infant and a toddler brutally murdered so that his daughter could marry a king, ordered the rape and murder of the woman who was chosen to marry Rhaegar instead of his daughter, paraded a woman around Lannisport naked because she dared to have a non-adulterous affair with a wealthy lord (notice a pattern here?), allowed his son to be charged with a murder he was innocent of, and unleashed the Mountain on the smallfolk to prove a point.

Yeah, the guy's a real hero. 

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24 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Let's see. Tywin ordered the gang-rape of his teenage daughter-in-law because she had the audacity to marry above her station, broke one of the realm's most holy laws by organizing an ambush at the Red Wedding (along with the deaths of hundreds of northern soldiers), had an infant and a toddler brutally murdered so that his daughter could marry a king, ordered the rape and murder of the woman who was chosen to marry Rhaegar instead of his daughter, paraded a woman around Lannisport naked because she dared to have a non-adulterous affair with a wealthy lord (notice a pattern here?), allowed his son to be charged with a murder he was innocent of, and unleashed the Mountain on the smallfolk to prove a point.

Yeah, the guy's a real hero. 

Honestly portions of that are pretty in line with expected norms in Westeros for warfare. The portion about the rape and murder of Elia is entirely speculation as is letting Tyrion be executed (though I agree on the latter). 

Red Wedding and Tysha are really all you need to make the argument he's a villain.

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

It doesn't matter that it would bring shame to house Lannister. What Tywin does to Tysha is absolutely horrifying, and it's there in part to give readers insight into who Tywin is. And who he is is a man that orders the brutal gang rape of a child by his soldiers b/c of his pride. 

As to the bold, no, Tysha is not immaterial, nor should she have been immaterial to Tywin, despicable douche that he is. 

To a lord-it absolutely does matter that his son is making a mockery of his house. The fate of one peasant isn't going to register as important in the slightest degree by comparison to someone of Tywin's rank. To Tywin- Tysha is immaterial-her indivual welfare is not his concern, what is his concern is making it so that Tyrion will turn his house into a laughing stock, one in which its individual members see it as OK to do things against the interests of house Lanister by making them personally happy. 

Its not merely about Tywin's pride. Tyrion's foolish decision hurts House Lanister as a whole. 

 

1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

That's because he is a villain and those guys never see themselves as bad.  He can justify it in his own mind so that it feels like he made the right decision.   

Most people in general are not going to see themselves as a bad person. Hell most "good" characters we see in the series do things that can entail a lot of harm to innocents with no real care for the greater good. Robb doesn't think himself as a villian person when he resigns to let the lanisters keep his sisters for his rebellion, Daenarys does consider herself a villian after having ordered the torture of a man and his daughters after she makes clear she knows torture does not think it is an effective means to gather information or Tyrion who wants to tear the realm apart and get his niece killed to get back at Cersi. Labeling each as a villian is simply too simplistic.

1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Don't you find it odd that such a PUBLIC action was taken by Tywin if it was just all about worrying about the shame of House Lannister?  Tywin is the one who made Tyrion's marriage such public knowledge, so it does not seem to be the smartest thing to do when it comes to preserving House Lannister's honor, does it?  It seems to me to be all about Tywin's issues with women, sex, as well as his issues with Tyrion. 

Unlikeky he(Tywin), told his men his son married a whore. He's not in the buisness of telling peasants under his employ the reasons for their orders nor is it that they are like to ask. Even just talking about the rape, Tywin could be sure any gossiping among them would not reach it to his peers, or become widespread knowledge in general.  We are given no hint the knowledge  of Tyrion's mishap is widespread. 

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52 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To a lord-it absolutely does matter that his son is making a mockery of his house. The fate of one peasant isn't going to register as important in the slightest degree by comparison to someone of Tywin's rank. To Tywin- Tysha is immaterial-her indivual welfare is not his concern, what is his concern is making it so that Tyrion will turn his house into a laughing stock, one in which its individual members see it as OK to do things against the interests of house Lanister by making them personally happy. 

Its not merely about Tywin's pride. Tyrion's foolish decision hurts House Lanister as a whole. 

So no one here is saying Tyrion didn't bring shame on his house. We're just saying that the corrective step of organizing the brutal gang rape of a child instead of, say, annulling the obviously invalid marriage and forcing her to join the silent sisters, which Tywin had done to some Tarbecks, speaks as to what kind of man he is. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

So no one here is saying Tyrion didn't bring shame on his house. We're just saying that the corrective step of organizing the brutal gang rape of a child instead of, say, annulling the obviously invalid marriage and forcing her to join the silent sisters, which Tywin had done to some Tarbecks, speaks as to what kind of man he is. 

 

This.  Tywin is a monster with clear tendencies towards sexual violence and humiliation.  The Tysha issue is not a one-time thing- Elia Martell and Tytos's mistress are other examples of this.  And I know he didn't personally rape Elia, but his unconvincing "you can't blame me for my henchmen's activity" is completely absurd- he could easily remedy this by punishing Gregor and making it clear this behavior was unacceptable, but instead Tywin implicitly supports this and by extension, Gregor's future monstrous behavior.  

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

So no one here is saying Tyrion didn't bring shame on his house. We're just saying that the corrective step of organizing the brutal gang rape of a child instead of, say, annulling the obviously invalid marriage and forcing her to join the silent sisters, which Tywin had done to some Tarbecks, speaks as to what kind of man he is. 

 

Invalid marriage? Tyrion had a septon, witnesses, and bedded Tysha. The marriage is valid-why exactly do you think it isn't?  And annulling it would likely require getting the high septon to do such and having the news of his son's mishap spread. 

No one is saying what Tywin did is good or the action he should have taken-some of us just recognize it as another instance to which he is being brutal(not for the joy of it),  because he thinks it's in the interest of his house.

Tyrion (as we agree), did bring shame to house Lanister; I would also say his behavior would set a bad precedent on what indivual members are allowed to do. 

Tywin could have simply sent Tysah away and just said she was whore-but he wanted to make absolutely sure Tyrion would never even think to do something that goes against interests of his house ever again, that he won't do something else equally dumb that could turn House Lanister into a laughing stock. 

He is no more a villian for this one brutal (no matter sick) action than Robb is for sacrificing Arya and Sansa for his pursuit of reveng, or Daenarys for torturing a man and his daughters after coming to understand torture does not work in getting valueble information, or Tyrion who wants to cause a war that'll kill thousands including his niece just to get back at his sister-oh and whose guilty of murder and rape. 

I see no reason for why it's appropriate to labele Tywin as a "villian" , it simply is too simplistic for the man.

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Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Invalid marriage? Tyrion had a septon, witnesses, and bedded Tysha. The marriage is valid-why exactly do you think it isn't?  And annulling it would likely require getting the high septon to do such and having the news of his son's mishap spread. 

The septon was drunk, neither child had their parents permission (neither was age of majority though Tysha was an orphan IIRC), the witnesses were pigs. I might not be a HS, but there seem to be some mitigating factors in the validity of the marriage there. 

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No one is saying what Tywin did is right-some of us just recognize it as another instance to which he is being brutal(not for the joy of it),  because he thinks it's in the interest of his house.

So how exactly is being brutal better here than quietly shuttling her off to the silent sisters?

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tyrion (as we agree), did bring shame to house Lanister; I would also say his behavior would set a bad precedent on what indivual members are allowed to do. 

I have not and will never dispute that Tyrion attempting to marry Tysha and trying to live with her did anything positive for House Lannister. It flies in the face of Westerosi norms

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tywin could have simply sent Tysah away and just said she was whore-but he wanted to make absolutely sure Tyrion would never even think to do something that goes against interests of his house ever again, that he won't do something else equally dumb that could turn House Lanister into a laughing stock. 

Yeah and that's why he's a villain with a cartoonish mustache (in my head canon) instead of a grey character who's made some horrible decisions

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He is no more a villian for this one brutal (no matter sick) action than Robb is for sacrificing Arya and Sansa for his pursuit of reveng, or Daenarys for torturing a man and his daughters after coming to understand torture does not work in getting valueble information, or Tyrion who wants to cause a war that'll kill thousands including his niece just to get back at his sister-oh and whose guilty of murder and rape. 

I must have missed where Sansa and Arya got raped on his order. Even counting Arya in that is suspect as she's clearly not in the same situation as Sansa. 

Dany's torture of the wineseller's daughters  is absolutely indefensible. 

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I see no reason for why it's appropriate to labele Tywin as a "villian" , it simply is too simplistic for the man.

Ordering a child gang raped because she made a mistake and because he wanted to punish Tyrion seems like a damn good reason to me. Villains can be multi-faceted and meaningful. Being labeled a villain doesn't automatically make you snidely whiplash. 

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