Was Tywin Lannister a villain?

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Honestly portions of that are pretty in line with expected norms in Westeros for warfare. The portion about the rape and murder of Elia is entirely speculation as is letting Tyrion be executed (though I agree on the latter). 

Red Wedding and Tysha are really all you need to make the argument he's a villain.

That and loosing the likes of Gregor Clegane and the Brave Companions on the Riverlands.  Most of the rest is either par for the course or entirely speculative (for example, I think he truly believed Tyrion to be guilty of Joffrey's murder).

While not as bad as some, he still falls on the "villain" side of the ledger.

[Universal Sword Donor]

12 minutes ago, Nevets said:

That and loosing the likes of Gregor Clegane and the Brave Companions on the Riverlands.  Most of the rest is either par for the course or entirely speculative (for example, I think he truly believed Tyrion to be guilty of Joffrey's murder).

While not as bad as some, he still falls on the "villain" side of the ledger.

Chevauchée is a pretty common medieval warfare tactic. As someone else will probably bring up, Robb did much the same thing in the West, though I have to assume it involved less rape than the Mountain and the Brace Companions.

[Nevets]

3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Chevauchée is a pretty common medieval warfare tactic. As someone else will probably bring up, Robb did much the same thing in the West, though I have to assume it involved less rape than the Mountain and the Brace Companions.

The impression I got was that the behavior of the Brave Companions and Clegane's men was pretty bad even by accepted in-world standards.  Which are pretty low.   

I seriously doubt that Robb's army was even close to that level of atrocity, although I do expect quite a bit of theft and property destruction occurred.  But rape, murder, torture, etc.  Not so much.  And committing those sorts of atrocities was why Clegane, Hoat, et al were out there in the first place.

[Universal Sword Donor]

23 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The impression I got was that the behavior of the Brave Companions and Clegane's men was pretty bad even by accepted in-world standards.  Which are pretty low.   

I seriously doubt that Robb's army was even close to that level of atrocity, although I do expect quite a bit of theft and property destruction occurred.  But rape, murder, torture, etc.  Not so much.  And committing those sorts of atrocities was why Clegane, Hoat, et al were out there in the first place.

Yeah I forgot Tywin specifically referenced that kind of behavior. I just remembered the "set the riverlands afire from the Red Fork to Gods Eye."

“Let them,” Lord Tywin said. “Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeriders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork.”
“They will burn, my lord,” Ser Kevan said, rising. “I shall give the commands.” He bowed and made for the door.
When they were alone, Lord Tywin glanced at Tyrion. “Your savages might relish a bit of rapine. Tell them they may ride with Vargo Hoat and plunder as they like—goods, stock, women, they may take what they want and burn the rest.”

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The septon was drunk, neither child had their parents permission (neither was age of majority though Tysha was an orphan IIRC), the witnesses were pigs. I might not be a HS, but there seem to be some mitigating factors in the validity of the marriage there

There is no law that we know of to which say a septon has to be completely sober to perform a wedding. Tysha was 14; in the eyes of the law as a female she would be viewed as old enough, and though customary, people of don't really need parental approval for a marriage to be valid-Sansa was even recognized by Stannis as being firmly a lanister even though her patriarch(Robb), never gave his consent to the union between her and Tyrion. Hell just about oaths in general it does not seem a person need be a legal adult for themtaking it to be legally binding; Jon is not "man-grown" by the time he goes the watch but they accept him nonetheless. 

The witnesses were pigs. 

Still even the marriage did not those "mitigating factors", to actually get the marriage annulled, requires asking the high septon to do such which would make it so that everyone knows of Tyrion's mishap and likely refused given Tywin's soured relationship with the king.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

How exactly is being brutal better here than quietly shuttling her off to the silent sisters?

I did not say it was. I said Tywin wanted to make sure Tyrion would never do something that could hurt house Lanister again and this (in Tywin's eyes) was the most effective way to get Tyrion to fully comprehend the error of his actions. 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yeah and that's why he's a villain with a cartoonish mustache (in my head canon) instead of a grey character who's made some horrible decisions 

He is clearly a grey character since every seemingly brutal action he actually commits can fall under the umbrella of being commited for the betterment and security of his House-to which he's been geared since birth  to see as more important than anything. He doesn't torture people or murder people just for fun or even purely personal grudges, he didn't even try to inact some sort of petty vegence against some of those who mocked him when he lost favor with Aerys after the Targyens were usurped; he's more mature than that.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I must have missed where Sansa and Arya got raped on his order. Even counting Arya in that is suspect as she's clearly not in the same situation as Sansa. 

Dany's torture of the wineseller's daughters  is absolutely indefensible. 

Robb did not order Sansa and Arya to be raped-he's decided that whatever abuse they are going to suffer as a result of his rebellion, is not as important as avenging their patriarch, Sansa and Arya, could be tortured(Sansa was beaten and humiliated), or killed(though unlikely) or yes, raped, the lanisters could be expected to marry them to men loyal to them and bed them. At the point he refuses to make peace after Catelyn's first pleading that he do Arya was stated to be in the custody of the lanisters.

Daenarys never thought  of the wine sellers daughters again.  

You forgot to mention Tyrion; is he a villian? Again he is a murderer, and did commit rape, and  wants to ignite a war that would kill thousands including his niece or nephew  just to spite a woman who'd he given plenty of reason to want dead(ex.kidnapping one her sons). 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Ordering a child gang raped because she made a mistake and because he wanted to punish Tyrion seems like a damn good reason to me. Villains can be multi-faceted and meaningful. Being labeled a villain doesn't automatically make you snidely whiplash. 

Villians can be multi-faceted and meaningful; but calling Tywin such as if near his rank we see in the series commit acts that would cause a lot of pain and suffering to innocents(including some of the "good" characters), for personal  wants and grievances seems to ignore the contex . 

[Universal Sword Donor]

26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

There is no law that we know of to which say a septon has to be completely sober to perform a wedding. Tysha was 14; in the eyes of the law as a female she would be viewed as old enough, and though customary, people of don't really need parental approval for a marriage to be valid-Sansa was even recognized by Stannis as being firmly a lanister even though her patriarch(Robb), never gave his consent to the union between her and Tyrion. Hell just about oaths in general it does not seem a person need be a legal adult for themtaking it to be legally binding; Jon is not "man-grown" by the time he goes the watch but they accept him nonetheless. 

Tyrion mentions it for a reason. He had to bribe the septon to perform the marriage anyway:

“Oh, you’d be astonished at what a boy can make of a few lies, fifty pieces of silver, and a drunken septon”

Sansa was a ward of the crown. Arranging marriages for wards is within the power of the throne. Robb's input would be null and void given that he was a rebel and attainted at the time.

Jon also had his father's permission along with his uncle shepherding him to the watch. 

26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The witnesses were pigs. 

So there was a wedding with no actual witnesses and a bribed Septon performing it

26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Still even the marriage did not those "mitigating factors", to actually get the marriage annulled, requires asking the high septon to do such which would make it so that everyone knows of Tyrion's mishap and likely refused given Tywin's soured relationship with the king.

If it's not a valid marriage, the marriage need not be annulled. We know weddings can be set aside for less than ironclad reasons AND we know that sending someone to the silent sisters entirely erases the wedding. Ask Quentyn Ball. Hell even killing her was an option.

26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I did not say it was. I said Tywin wanted to make sure Tyrion would never do something that could hurt house Lanister again and this (in Tywin's eyes) was the most effective way to get Tyrion to fully comprehend the error of his actions. 

How did well did that work? So not only was it monstrous but completely ineffective? Seems like the silent sisters would have been a better option.

26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He is clearly a grey character since every seemingly brutal action he actually commits can fall under the umbrella of being commited for the betterment and security of his House-to which he's been geared since birth  to see as more important than anything. He doesn't torture people or murder people just for fun or even purely personal grudges, he didn't even try to inact some sort of petty vegence against some of those who mocked him when he lost favor with Aerys after the Targyens were usurped; he's more mature than that.

He taught his son a very personal lesson by having his wife gang raped by 100 guardsmen. That might protect the reputation of his house. I fail to see how that betters the security of his house.

26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robb did not order Sansa and Arya to be raped-he's decided that whatever abuse they are going to suffer as a result of his rebellion, is not as important as avenging their patriarch, Sansa and Arya, could be tortured(Sansa was beaten and humiliated), or killed(though unlikely) or yes, raped, the lanisters could be expected to marry them to men loyal to them and bed them. At the point he refuses to make peace after Catelyn's first pleading that he do Arya was stated to be in the custody of the lanisters.

Robb called the banners to save Ned. He loses all support if he trades Jaime for Arya/Sansa. The prevailing attitudes of the people involved are pretty indicative.

“Ser Addam snorted disdainfully. “He would have to be an utter ass to trade Jaime Lannister’s life for two girls.”

“The lord was unappeased. “Jaime Lannister has played you for a fool. You’ve bought a bag of empty words, no more. My Torrhen and my Eddard deserved better of you.”

“Galbart Glover and Lord Jason Mallister were cooler, and Jonos Bracken almost icy, but their words were courteous enough.”

Making peace with the Lannisters basically just makes Robb a hugely unpopular lord and probably puts his head on a platter.

26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Daenarys never thought  of the wine sellers daughters again.  

As Tywin didn't think again of Tysha until Tyrion brought her up. Once again, entirely indefensible.

26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You forgot to mention Tyrion; is he a villian? Again he is a murderer, and did commit rape, and  wants to ignite a war that would kill thousands including his niece or nephew  just to spite a woman who'd he given plenty of reason to want dead(ex.kidnapping one her sons). 

Tyrion is definitely on the darker side of grey. Equating his crimes with Tywin's is apples and oranges though still generally bad.

26 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Villians can be multi-faceted and meaningful; but calling Tywin such as if near his rank we see in the series commit acts that would cause a lot of pain and suffering to innocents(including some of the "good" characters), for personal  wants and grievances seems to ignore the contex . 

The only people that have committed acts similar to what Tywin with Tysha did are Ramsay, Gregor, and the Brave Companions. Maybe Roose if you want a stretch.

[The Fattest Leech]

Holy moly. What is going on in the forum these days? Is it the heat?

Of course Tywin was written as an antagonist, even a villain if you will since he is directly responsible for the trouble and harm to those around him. He was a clever and cunning man, a wonderfully written awful person. The thing is, everything about him is for greed, and just because GRRM puts a concept in to a story, it does not mean he is endorsing it.

However, I do like how he sent his spoiled brat illegitimate "king" grandson to bed... that was hilarious. I applauded that move.

Seriously, Martin has even shown us that in his death, punctuated by the whispers, shits, smells, smirking, and vomit next to his corpse, Tywin was full of corruption. Rotten to the core.

The idea that some posters seem to have that all characters are grey, and the same shade of grey, is preposterous. George has even made it clear that some characters are, "mostly white with some flaws", while others are, "very dark grey." Tywin, and others in the story like him, are very dark grey. That is as close to calling someone a villain as George seems to want to come to in his own writing.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You forgot to mention Tyrion; is he a villian? Again he is a murderer, and did commit rape, and  wants to ignite a war that would kill thousands including his niece or nephew  just to spite a woman who'd he given plenty of reason to want dead(ex.kidnapping one her sons). 

Villians can be multi-faceted and meaningful; but calling Tywin such as if near his rank we see in the series commit acts that would cause a lot of pain and suffering to innocents(including some of the "good" characters), for personal  wants and grievances seems to ignore the contex . 

Yes, according to the author, Tyrion is a villain, and since Tywin is much worse than Tyrion, Tywin is a much worse villain.

Question: Do you have a favorite character?

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

How did well did that work? So not only was it monstrous but completely ineffective? Seems like the silent sisters would have been a better option.

Not much-Tyrion even after such trauma did not learn to put aside his own personal wants for the greater good of House lanister.

But again Tywin thought it would fix Tyrion; it didn't but he chose this course because he thought it was the best way to teach Tyrion just how royalty he fucked up. It was not done for cruelty's sake. 

44 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Tyrion mentions it for a reason. He had to bribe the septon to perform the marriage anyway:

 

There's no stated rule a septon can't be paid to perform a ceremony.  The pigs are probably not going to be seen as proper witnesses(admitbly). 

Having to pay the drunk septon to perform the ceremony could have been necessitated by the fact actually doing this is like to bring the ire of Tywin. 

I honestly don't think Tyrion actually told Tywin all the details of what's he's done because whenever Tyrion mentions it to Tywin, Tywin never says the marriage wasn't even real in response. Tyrion says if Tywin remembered he was married-Tywin says all to well he remembers, and even said at least Joffery didn't marry a whore in response to Tyrion bringing up how much trouble he got into at Joffery's age.

48 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Sansa was a ward of the crown. Arranging marriages for wards is within the power of the throne. Robb's input would be null and void given that he was a rebel and attainted at the time.  Fair point on Robb being a rebel and Jon having permission -still Jaimie joined the KG at 15 and If oaths can legally recognized by parental consent, you'd imagine Tywin would use that to excuse Jaimie after Robert's rebellion; how could he be expected to keep oaths he'd legally had no right to make?

7 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He taught his son a very personal lesson by having his wife gang raped by 100 guardsmen. That might protect the reputation of his house. I fail to see how that betters the security of his house.

I would say it could be looked at as maintaining the security of house Lanister -people(especially the lanisters's followers), need to see that House Lanister are not fools if people are going to listen to them. Hell, just to be clear a house's security often relies upon it's reputation, if a house is known to be ruled by weakling and/or fool than people can be expected to exploit said house. 

10 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Robb called the banners to save Ned. He loses all support if he trades Jaime for Arya/Sansa. The prevailing attitudes of the people involved are pretty indicative.

After the battle of Greenfork Robb had an opportunity to trade Jaime for his sisters-he chose not to not out of want to actually save his father but to avenge him.

11 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Making peace with the Lannisters basically just makes Robb a hugely unpopular lord and probably puts his head on a platter.

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It makes Robb decidedly less popular. Especially to the Riverlanders who aided him; that's not a good reason to actually sacrifice kin.  And his life isn't forfeit by doing so nor is that ever stated by him as an excuse for why he can't make peace-his arguement is he should not kneel to his father's killers; 

16 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

yrion is definitely on the darker side of grey. Equating his crimes with Tywin's is apples and oranges though still generally bad.

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How is it apples and oranges? Hell Tyrion's for his crimes aren't even to serve anything else but himself; Tywin at least can be said to do his for his family. Tyrion  would cause a war that will kill thousands including his niece to spite Cersi, he did rape a slave when he was feeling down, and he did murder someone rather than pay them off for keeping quiet about Shae instead of shipping her away.

If Tywin is a villian Tyrion is likewise.

30 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

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As Tywin didn't think again of Tysha until Tyrion brought her up. Once again, entirely indefensible.

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Yes. Tywin has acted no more a villian than Daenarys. 

58 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The only people that have committed acts similar to what Tywin with Tysha did are Ramsay, Gregor, and the Brave Companions. Maybe Roose if you want a stretch.

The people you listed cause harm to innocents at most times for personal amusement and/or profit. Tywin doesn't. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not much-Tyrion even after such trauma did not learn to put aside his own personal wants for the greater good of House lanister.

But again Tywin thought it would fix Tyrion; it didn't but he chose this course because he thought it was the best way to teach Tyrion just how royalty he fucked up. It was not done for cruelty's sake. 

There's no stated rule a septon can't be paid to perform a ceremony.  The pigs are probably not going to be seen as proper witnesses(admitbly). 

Having to pay the drunk septon to perform the ceremony could have been necessitated by the fact actually doing this is like to bring the ire of Tywin. 

It's just not a proper marriage for any number of reasons. 

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I honestly don't think Tyrion actually told Tywin all the details of what's he's done because whenever Tyrion mentions it to Tywin, Tywin never says the marriage wasn't even real in response. Tyrion says if Tywin remembered he was married-Tywin says all to well he remembers, and even said at least Joffery didn't marry a whore in response to Tyrion bringing up how much trouble he got into at Joffery's age.

Right so the wedding isn't valid in Tywin's eyes. 

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I would say it could be looked at as maintaining the security of house Lanister -people(especially the lanisters's followers), need to see that House Lanister are not fools if people are going to listen to them. Hell, just to be clear a house's security often relies upon it's reputation, if a house is known to be ruled by weakling and/or fool than people can be expected to exploit said house. 

He already has the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion well in hand as well as 20 years of being Aerys' hand. Once again, he let two Tarbecks become silent sisters instead of having them raped or/or killed.

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

After the battle of Greenfork Robb had an opportunity to trade Jaime for his sisters-he chose not to not out of want to actually save his father but to avenge him.

And basically no one but Cat says its a good idea.

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It makes Robb decidedly less popular. Especially to the Riverlanders who aided him; that's not a good reason to actually sacrifice kin.  And his life isn't forfeit by doing so nor is that ever stated by him as an excuse for why he can't make peace-his arguement is he should not kneel to his father's killers; 

If making a political decision that weakens you to the point of surrender or death and endangers thousands of other men and women isn't a good reason, I don't know what is. Turning over Jaime Lannister for Sansa and Arya (though we know that's impossible ) is going to play out pretty similarly to sleeping with Jeyne. It's going to destroy alliances and put him on the defensive in a land he doesn't control. 

People point out at various junctures that if he goes south to bend the knee, he won't come back alive. He doesn't exactly have strong choices. Trading Tyrion for them would be the only worthwhile offer but I doubt Tywin would trade Sansa and Arya for Tyrion. Cersei definitely wouldn't.

“ If you go to King’s Landing and swear fealty, you will never be allowed to leave. If you turn your tail and retreat to Winterfell, your lords will lose all respect for you. Some may even go over to the Lannisters. ”

 

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

How is it apples and oranges? Hell Tyrion's for his crimes aren't even to serve anything else but himself; Tywin at least can be said to do his for his family. Tyrion  would cause a war that will kill thousands including his niece to spite Cersi, he did rape a slave when he was feeling down, and he did murder someone rather than pay them off for keeping quiet about Shae instead of shipping her away.

If Tywin is a villian Tyrion is likewise.

Mostly by scope. 

Tyrion wants to start a war. Tywin has started a war where thousands have been burned out of hearth and home, raped, and killed.

Tyrion raped (by modern definition) a bed slave. Tywin had 100 grown men rape Tyrion's wife by any definition.

Tyrion murdered a singer who wanted to extort him (as well as one of the Yunkish slaves who hated him). Tywin had two children brutally murdered and did nothing to prevent their mother from being killed. 

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes. Tywin has acted no more a villian than Daenarys. 

Maybe in that one particular instance. Raping and pillaging thousands of square miles is not something I've seen Dany order. She's got her rough patches and has made some brutally awful decisions (163 crucified great masters and winesellers family), but nothing on the scale of Tywin.

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The people you listed cause harm to innocents at most times for personal amusement and/or profit. Tywin doesn't. 

Motive is the smallest part in measuring if someone is a villain. Mao wanted to jump China's culture and economy by decades. He killed tens of millions of people and set China back more than a decade. Not many people outside of China call him a hero. The road to hell is paved with good intentions after all.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If making a political decision that weakens you to the point of surrender or death and endangers thousands of other men and women isn't a good reason, I don't know what is. Turning over Jaime Lannister for Sansa and Arya (though we know that's impossible ) is going to play out pretty similarly to sleeping with Jeyne. It's going to destroy alliances and put him on the defensive in a land he doesn't control. 

People point out at various junctures that if he goes south to bend the knee, he won't come back alive. He doesn't exactly have strong choices. Trading Tyrion for them would be the only worthwhile offer but I doubt Tywin would trade Sansa and Arya for Tyrion. Cersei definitely wouldn't.

“ If you go to King’s Landing and swear fealty, you will never be allowed to leave. If you turn your tail and retreat to Winterfell, your lords will lose all respect for you. Some may even go over to the Lannisters. ”

You do realize that's a quote by Catelyn and she's specifically talking of Ned being prisoner and Robb having no leverage to actually do anything should he go to KL;she's not saying never make peace, keep fighting always, she's advising him to wait till he has leverage to actually get one to where he comes out on top.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VIII

"You mean they're lying?"

"I do not know, Robb. What I do know is that youhave no choice. If you go to King's Landing and swear fealty, you will never be allowed to leave. If you turn your tail and retreat to Winterfell, your lords will lose all respect for you. Some may even go over to the Lannisters. Then the queen, with that much less to fear, can do as she likes with her prisoners. Our best hope, our only true hope, is that you can defeat the foe in the field. If you should chance to take LordTywin or the Kingslayer captive, why then a trade might very well be possible, but that is not the heart of it. So long as you have power enough that they must fear you, Ned and your sister should be safe. Cersei is wise enough to know that she may need them to make her peace, should the fighting go against her."

 

Later Catelyn advised peace given they now have Jaimie to bargain with. Robb refuses, not because thousands of people's lives are at stake(ending the war then and there would probably save more lives than fighting it), but because the lanisters killed his father.

Who actually said Robb he would never return should he go to KL to bend the knee ever?

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And basically no one but Cat says its a good idea.

No-Robb admits he should have traded Sansa for Jaimie. With good reason his sisters could be exchanged to garner the loyalty of potential allies. 

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn IV

"Not for long," her son promised. "I will offer them Martyn Lannister in exchange. Lord Tywin will have to accept, for his brother's sake." Martyn was Ser Kevan's son, a twin to the Willem that Lord Karstark had butchered. Those murders still haunted her son, Catelyn knew. He had tripled the guard around Martyn, but still feared for his safety.

"I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it," Robb said as they walked the gallery. "If I'd offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey's. I should have thought of that."

"Your mind was on your battles, and rightly so. Even a king cannot think of everything."

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Maybe in that one particular instance. Raping and pillaging thousands of square miles is not something I've seen Dany order. She's got her rough patches and has made some brutally awful decisions (163 crucified great masters and winesellers family), but nothing on the scale of Tywin

She was willing to unleash a Dothraki horde knowing full well what they're capable of-the thousands of women raped, the babes slain and just every despicable act the Dothraki will do is accepted Daenarys as being worth it for her ambition-she may save a handful of women from being raped(or stop them from continuing to be raped she did with the witch), to placate her consience to reaffirm to herself she's a good a person but she isn't really going to do anything to which would save the  thousands she would savage if it comes at the cost of House Targyen's chance of getting back the throne she of course is fulfilling her duty to her house however as any loyal noble daughter is taught as being the most important thing.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Right so the wedding isn't valid in Tywin's eyes. 

If Tywin didn't think Tyrion marriage was a valid one would he honestly continueously reference as if it was? Like he never gives any indication he thought Tyrion's marriage wasn't real.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He already has the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion well in hand as well as 20 years of being Aerys' hand. Once again, he let two Tarbecks become silent sisters instead of having them raped or/or killed.

Yes-he did have a reputation for being competent at keeping things in check- he surely doesn't the reputation, he carefully built up of house lanister ruined by his family do to them thinking their individual wants take precedent over what's good for house lanister. 

 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Mostly by scope. 

Tyrion wants to start a war. Tywin has started a war where thousands have been burned out of hearth and home, raped, and killed 

Tywin responded to a direct affront to his house-his son and apparent heir(yes I know he didn't plan on having Tyrion inherit the rock-but still), was abducted by House Stark-Tyrion plans and actually sort of did start a war between Young griff and his family-one of which he thinks young griff and his crew will probably die-and I'm not buying the excuse he truly didn't know Young griff would possibly take this course of action; it's simply another instance Tyrion not registering the lives that can be ruined by his actions(again). 

And he is actively trying to get to Daenarys to help her in her war to come over and get revenge on Cersi-screw Tommen and the thousands that would die in the conflict so long as Cersi pays for being decidedly less vile to him than he was to her. 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tyrion raped (by modern definition) a bed slave. Tywin had 100 grown men rape Tyrion's wife by any definition.

I don't get your reasoning here; is raping a bed slave(someone whose been raped hundreds of times assuredly), decidedly less bad than ordering 100 men to rape someone's wife in your mind? I'm pretty sure you'd say no but the way you're saying this is kinda giving that impression;please clarify.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tyrion murdered a singer who wanted to extort him (as well as one of the Yunkish slaves who hated him). Tywin had two children brutally murdered and did nothing to prevent their mother from being killed. 

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Tyrion murdered a man who wanted exort him-instead of easily paying the guy off and sending away Shae(whose mere presence he knows is can get her hanged by his father-to which he hasn't told her-and to which has gotten  a 17 year old girl kidnapped and whipped-but at least Tyrion can play his fantasy). Tywin killed two children to which were already dead(Robert would not spare them), to secure his entire house's position in Robert's new regime. He did not know what Gregor was when he sent him on this task nor did he give mind to Ellia as a person; his son's life was in danger, he had bigger priorities at the moment. Tyrions bad  actions are entirely motivated self-interest. Tywin's aren't. Really. I don't count all Tywin's actions as justified or the right that should have been taken

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You do realize that's a quote by Catelyn and she's specifically talking of Ned being prisoner and Robb having no leverage to actually do anything should he go to KL;she's not saying never make peace, keep fighting always, she's advising him to wait till he has leverage to actually get one to where he comes out on top.

I never said any of that. The point was that bending the knee to Joffrey was never an option, regardless of the situation. The situation remains much the same when he's declared KitN. Revenge my well be a motive but he knows he can't bend the knee and remain free or alive.

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No-Robb admits he should have traded Sansa for Jaimie. With good reason his sisters could be exchanged to garner the loyalty of potential allies.

If he thinks the Tyrells  would marry Sansa to Loras garnering their loyalty instead of Joffrey to Marg, I have a bridge to sell you.

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

She was willing to unleash a Dothraki horde knowing full well what they're capable of-the thousands of women raped, the babes slain and just every despicable act the Dothraki will do is accepted Daenarys as being worth it for her ambition-she may save a handful of women from being raped(or stop them from continuing to be raped she did with the witch), to placate her consience to reaffirm to herself she's a good a person but she isn't really going to do anything to which would save the  thousands she would savage if it comes at the cost of House Targyen's chance of getting back the throne she of course is fulfilling her duty to her house however as any loyal noble daughter is taught as being the most important thing.

What, uh, giant Dothraki horde does she control?

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If Tywin didn't think Tyrion marriage was a valid one would he honestly continueously reference as if it was? Like he never gives any indication he thought Tyrion's marriage wasn't real.

Are you serious? If he thought the marriage was valid, don't you think he would have followed up on Tyrion's wife? Tyrion can't marry Sansa if he's already wed. He called her a prostitute for a reason.

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes-he did have a reputation for being competent at keeping things in check- he surely doesn't the reputation, he carefully built up of house lanister ruined by his family do to them thinking their individual wants take precedent over what's good for house lanister. 

Tyrion making a dumb mistake and him rectifying it within 2 weeks is not going to undermine his legacy left as Hand and by destroying the Reynes/Tarbecks.

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tywin responded to a direct affront to his house-his son and apparent heir(yes I know he didn't plan on having Tyrion inherit the rock-but still), was abducted by House Stark-Tyrion plans and actually sort of did start a war between Young griff and his family-one of which he thinks young griff and his crew will probably die-and I'm not buying the excuse he truly didn't know Young griff would possibly take this course of action; it's simply another instance Tyrion not registering the lives that can be ruined by his actions(again). 

Right notice how the Hoster sent people to the king to get permission to bring the Mountain to justice. Tywin bypassed his legal obligations and avenues for no reason other than an insult to his house. His SIL is the king. There's pretty much no reason to do what he did.

“Thank the gods for old Lord Hoster, then. Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. If indeed he’d sent Ser Gregor to burn and pillage—and Ned did not doubt that he had—he’d taken care to see that he rode under cover of night, without banners, in the guise of a common brigand. Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king’s peace, not the Lannisters.”

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And he is actively trying to get to Daenarys to help her in her war to come over and get revenge on Cersi-screw Tommen and the thousands that would die in the conflict so long as Cersi pays for being decidedly less vile to him than he was to her. 

He hasn't even met Dany or made it into Mereen yet.

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don't get your reasoning here; is someone raping a bed slave(someone whose been raped hundreds of times assuredly), decidedly less bad than ordering 100 men to rape someone's wife in your mind? 

Yes especially in the context of Tyrion's situation. If you want to look at it in terms of modern morals, go ahead. I am not. 

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tyrion murdered a man who wanted exort him-instead of easily paying the guy off and sending away Shae(whose mere presence he knows is can get her banged-to which he hasn't told her-and to which has gotten  a 17 year old girl kidnapped and whipped-but at least Tyrion can play his fantasy). Tywin killed two children to which were already dead(Robert would not spare them), to secure his entire house's position in his new regime. He did not know what Gregor was when he sent him on this task nor did he give mind to Ellia as a person; his son's life was in danger, he had bigger priorities at the moment. Tyrions bad  actions are entirely motivated self-interest. Tywin's aren't.

Meh.

Tyrion killed him because purchasing silence doesn't last. It never has. It never will. Keeping Shae around was dumb, especially since she betrayed him (another point in my favor of purchasing silence) during the trial

Tywin's actions were 100% motivated by primarily his self interest. Notice how Kevan and the rest of the Lannisters are not obsessed with restoring the family image? Tywin straight up admits he had the kids murdered so that the family's (eg his) loyalty wouldn't be in question. 

Comparing Tyrion to Tywin is a fools errand because Tywin's direct actions and orders had such a larger effect than anything Tyrion could hope to do

[chrisdaw]

He is an argument for discompassionate "ends justify the means" rule. A good argument, but one GRRM obviously doesn't believe in himself.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I personally think Tywin is just as much of a villain as Joffrey or Ramsay, with only Euron Greyjoy being worse. Tywin knows and releases Gregor Clegane on people knowing exactly what he does. If Joffrey had been trained by Tywin, it is very possible Joffrey would have his own Gregor Clegane to do his dirty work for him. I will grant that Joffrey and Ramsay might well be sociopaths, and they enjoy the torture/killing, but I somehow thinks that makes Tywin worse. If Tywin causes all that death and he doesn't even have the excuse that he enjoys it, that is even worse in my opinion. Also the gang rape of a child is perhaps the most viscerally uncomfortable part of the entire book. I honestly do not understand people who "like" or "respect" Tywin. But then again, I don't understand people who followed Hitler or voted for Trump either. Seems like the whole ends justify the means always falls apart anyways. Hitler made Germany strong, but eventually led to their doom. The same is/already has happened to the Westerlands/the Lannisters. Tywin wasn't a good leader. His actions will in reflection have led to the destruction or near destruction of his house (maybe Tyrion survives to repopulate the Lannisters). Kevan is dead. Jaime turned down his offer. Tyrion murdered him. Cersei will try to follow his example and cause a rift between the one house he managed to ally with. Joffrey is dead. Tommen is unlikely to survive much longer. And by the way for people on here defending the sack of King's Landing, it is said repeatedly that it was particularly brutal, and Eddard would have been the one taking King's Landing had Tywin not arrived (and it would have gone very differently). Also he showed the snake he was, as he essentially lied saying he was there to defend King's Landing only to burn it. Also if Jaime had not been there, King's Landing would have burned something horrific because of Tywin's actions. I am sorry, I just cannot understand people defending this evil evil man. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes especially in the context of Tyrion's situation. If you want to look at it in terms of modern morals, go ahead. I am not. 

What's the context of Tyrion's situation ? He's from a culture to which banned slavery and reviled slavery as a sin; the immorality of Tyrion raping a slave whose been raped hundreds of time's before cant be mitigated by virtue his context. 

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

I never said any of that. The point was that bending the knee to Joffrey was never an option, regardless of the situation. The situation remains much the same when he's declared KitN. Revenge my well be a motive but he knows he can't bend the knee and remain free or alive.

Where does Robb or anyone say he would be killed or imprisoned if he bent the knee to Joffrey regardless of the situation? Please Because the only reason he really gives for why he can't/won't submit  is because he does not want to bend the knee to father's killers-even if it costs a  lot of innocents to suffer. 

And no; Robb stark would not be imprisoned or killed after surrendering; the actual harm would be irreputable, all the regions rebeling  at the moment would think should they surrender they can expect death or imprisonment; it sets up a bad precedent.  Tywin recognized as such-which is why he's very fair to the houses that aided in Robb's rebellion who were willing to submit; there's a time for mercy and a time for ruthlessness.

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Right notice how the Hoster sent people to the king to get permission to bring the Mountain to justice. Tywin bypassed his legal obligations and avenues for no reason other than an insult to his house. His SIL is the king. There's pretty much no reason to do what he did.

 

Ned kinda made clear he would not release Tyrion when Robert demands him to; hell Ned even goes as far as say he wishes to hunt Jaimie-in front of Cersi-who'd doubtless alert her father. Tywin could not expect justice from the king given his weak response to Ned's abduction of his son(Ned is saying Catelyn was acting on his authority),  and keeping him on as the hand. 

Eddard X;  Ned replied. "I am told the Kingslayer has fled the city. Give me leave to bring him back to justice."

Tywin did have reason to do what he did; he planned on forcing Eddard Stark to come out, capture him, and demand the release of his son. 

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If he thinks the Tyrells  would marry Sansa to Loras garnering their loyalty instead of Joffrey to Marg, I have a bridge to sell you.

Why me? Robb's the one saying he could do this. Glad you concede you were mistaken on this. 

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

What, uh, giant Dothraki horde does she control?

None at the moment.  Drogo died before he can set over to Westeroes to win back his wife's family throne-something Daenarys was actively pushing him to do knowing full well all the barbaric acts the Dothraki would do what the Dothraki would do should they land in Westeros. Yes, she'll probably save a lucky few she stumbles upon(praising herself with the knowledge she is such a good person ) and remark on how sad it all is but that's all. 

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tyrion making a dumb mistake and him rectifying it within 2 weeks is not going to undermine his legacy left as Hand and by destroying the Reynes/Tarbecks.

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Not in it of itself-but if Tyrion does repeat such mistakes again it would give the impression he's a loose handle on his own family.  The point of Tyrion's punishment, so his dwarf son could actually know, not to ever act against the interests of house lanister again. Tywin does not want to be continuously putting out Tyrion's fires. 

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

? If he thought the marriage was valid, don't you think he would have followed up on Tyrion's wife? Tyrion can't marry Sansa if he's already wed. He called her a prostitute for a reason.

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Not really-who cares, Tysha is gone regardless, Tywin need not do do anything more, over it since no one important will know about it and use as a reason for why Tyrion isn't allowed to marry; neither he nor Tyrion will broadcast such information.  If anyone does bring it up they'd have no proof. He called her a whore to Tyrion. Not to say the marriage is invalid(which would be odd-whores can marry),  but to make Tyrion feel ever more a fool for marrying her. If he thought the marriage was faked he would've mocked Tyrion for it as well.

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tyrion killed him because purchasing silence doesn't last. It never has. It never will. Keeping Shae around was dumb, especially since she betrayed him (another point in my favor of purchasing silence) during the trial

He did not have to murder anyone-he did it because he wanted to continue a fantasy(a fantasy that has gotten a 17 year old girl whipped and nearly killed already and may cost Shae her life if discovered)-that's it. It's remarkably selfish action. 

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Comparing Tyrion to Tywin is a fools errand because Tywin's direct actions and orders had such a larger effect than anything Tyrion could hope to do

He already started a war between young griff and crew and his family. A war that doubtless kill many, and Tyrion's actions throughout the series have as much impact to fate of the country as much as Tywin's; if it wasn't for Tyrion's wildfire plot, and defense of king's landing Stannis  the entire political landscape would have changed for instance. 

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He hasn't even met Dany or made it into Mereen yet.

So he shouldn't be judged on what he's actively trying to accomplish by virtue of him not being close to his goal yet? 

14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tywin's actions were 100% motivated by primarily his self interest. Notice how Kevan and the rest of the Lannisters are not obsessed with restoring the family image? Tywin straight up admits he had the kids murdered so that the family's (eg his) loyalty wouldn't be in question. 

The family image was restored thanks to Tywin's work. Every lanister borne during his reign never saw House lanister in the weak state to which Tytos left it in. And you're stretching; Tywin is the lord of his house; it's job to care and concentrate on its overall wellfare and image more than anyone. It is not 100% self-interest. He straight ups admits he killed children for House Lanister-so they'd have a new place in the new regime-he did not admit to have done it for himself. He never says he's doing all this for himself. He never uses his position to get back at any of the people who've mocked him or tries to-he's simply not so petty. Notice how when talking of Tywin his siblings(the people who witnessed Tythos nearly ruin their house's image), give praise to Tywin for having restored house Lanister and/or make apparent they think Tywin was a great man; Tyrion IX "Do you think he would allow you to take the black if you were not his own blood, and Joanna's? Tywin seems a hard man to you, I know, but he is no harder than he's had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years, and all it earned him was a mad king's envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty, and justice. He is a just man. You would be wise to trust him." Kevan

 

Jamie V ," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

 

[Unacosamedarisa]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Where does Robb or anyone say he would be killed or imprisoned if he bent the knee to Joffrey regardless of the situation? Please

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"I do not know, Robb. What I do know is that you have no choice. If you go to King's Landing and swear fealty, you will never be allowed to leave." Catelyn VIII, AGOT.

 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To a lord-it absolutely does matter that his son is making a mockery of his house. The fate of one peasant isn't going to register as important in the slightest degree by comparison to someone of Tywin's rank. To Tywin- Tysha is immaterial-her indivual welfare is not his concern, what is his concern is making it so that Tyrion will turn his house into a laughing stock, one in which its individual members see it as OK to do things against the interests of house Lanister by making them personally happy. 

Its not merely about Tywin's pride. Tyrion's foolish decision hurts House Lanister as a whole. 

 

Most people in general are not going to see themselves as a bad person. Hell most "good" characters we see in the series do things that can entail a lot of harm to innocents with no real care for the greater good. Robb doesn't think himself as a villian person when he resigns to let the lanisters keep his sisters for his rebellion, Daenarys does consider herself a villian after having ordered the torture of a man and his daughters after she makes clear she knows torture does not think it is an effective means to gather information or Tyrion who wants to tear the realm apart and get his niece killed to get back at Cersi. Labeling each as a villian is simply too simplistic.

Unlikeky he(Tywin), told his men his son married a whore. He's not in the buisness of telling peasants under his employ the reasons for their orders nor is it that they are like to ask. Even just talking about the rape, Tywin could be sure any gossiping among them would not reach it to his peers, or become widespread knowledge in general.  We are given no hint the knowledge  of Tyrion's mishap is widespread. 

We are told in the story that Tywin has her raped by his household guard in front of Tyrion, then bids Tyrion to take part as well.  At the end, so he would know her for what Tywin tried to convince Tyrion she was, a whore.  Tywin had Tyrion go last.........I wonder, do you think Tywin ushered out a half hundred or more rapists before he bid Tyrion to take his turn?  Most any person employed at Casterly Rock would have known of all of this.......to think it's all kept private is not believable. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

We are told in the story that Tywin has her raped by his household guard in front of Tyrion, then bids Tyrion to take part as well.  At the end, so he would know her for what Tywin tried to convince Tyrion she was, a whore.  Tywin had Tyrion go last.........I wonder, do you think Tywin ushered out a half hundred or more rapists before he bid Tyrion to take his turn?  Most any person employed at Casterly Rock would have known of all of this.......to think it's all kept private is not believable. 

I said it wouldn't be widespread knowledge-which even the employees at Casterly Rock isn't-any more than it was spread knowledge that Roose Bolton practiced first night(near everyone on his land would know , yet we hear no tales of him having really done anything egregious prior to the series)-news travels really slow in Westeros. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

 

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

not know, Robb. What I do know is that youhave no choice. If you go to King's Landing and swear fealty, you will never be allowed to leave. If you turn your tail and retreat to Winterfell, your lords will lose all respect for you. Some may even go over to the Lannisters. Then the queen, with that much less to fear, can do as she likes with her prisoners. Our best hope, our only true hope, is that you can defeat the foe in the field. If you should chance to take LordTywin or the Kingslayer captive, why then a trade might very well be possible, but that is not the heart of it. So long as you have power enough that they must fear you, Ned and your sister should be safe. Cersei is wise enough to know that she may need them to make her peace, should the fighting go against her."

Catelyn was not saying never go to KL to surrender regardless of circumstance-she was explaing why it'd foolish to surrender at that moment given their lack of leverage, to insure Robb's , Arya's and Sansa's as well as  Ned's safety; after they had Jaimie, she's the one telling him to make peace with the lanisters and yes bend the knee. She's actually really upset with the war hysteria that engulfed the rebels after the battle of the greenfork-the entire point of this for her was to get her loved ones back; with Jaimie that was a clear option now; if giving up vegence for that could achieve that then ok.

 

"Aye," said Lord Bracken. "Gregor Clegane laid waste to my fields, slaughtered my smallfolk, and left Stone Hedge a smoking ruin. Am I now to bend the knee to the ones who sent him? What have we fought for, if we are to put all back as it was before?"

Lord Blackwood agreed, to Catelyn's surprise and dismay. "And if we do make peace with King Joffrey, are we not then traitors to King Renly? What if the stag should prevail against the lion, where would that leave us?"

[Geddus]

Tysha, Aegon, Rhaenys. Yes, Tywin was a villain, I really don't see how that can even be in question. He was a great character, too.