Was Tywin Lannister a villain?

[Valyrian Lance]

Villainy is certainly in the eye of the beholder.

Walder Frey is seen as the most vile person on Earth for disregarding guest right to murder the Starks at the Red Wedding. Olenna Tyrell is seen as a justified concerned grandmother for disregarding guest right to murder Joffrey at the Purple Wedding. Joffrey was a confused kid with an absentee, drunken, womanizing, physically and verbally abusive father and a narcissistic, sociopathic, bordering on psychopathic mother that wouldn't punish him or let him learn from mistakes, what an evil child demon. That Robb never made a vow that he wouldn't betray. He lustily and with great hubris and naivety marched his men to die all for personal reasons. He is almost as selfish of his mother; he is quite the hero.

[kissdbyfire]

59 minutes ago, Valyrian Lance said:

Villainy is certainly in the eye of the beholder.

Walder Frey is seen as the most vile person on Earth for disregarding guest right to murder the Starks at the Red Wedding. Olenna Tyrell is seen as a justified concerned grandmother for disregarding guest right to murder Joffrey at the Purple Wedding. Joffrey was a confused kid with an absentee, drunken, womanizing, physically and verbally abusive father and a narcissistic, sociopathic, bordering on psychopathic mother that wouldn't punish him or let him learn from mistakes, what an evil child demon. That Robb never made a vow that he wouldn't betray. He lustily and with great hubris and naivety marched his men to die all for personal reasons. He is almost as selfish of his mother; he is quite the hero.

So what Robb did and what Tywin did are somehow similar in your opinion? 

[HoodedCrow]

Stalin was such a great guy, too. Very efficient.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I said it wouldn't be widespread knowledge-which even the employees at Casterly Rock isn't-any more than it was spread knowledge that Roose Bolton practiced first night(near everyone on his land would know , yet we hear no tales of him having really done anything egregious prior to the series)-news travels really slow in Westeros. 

I'm thinking it would be somewhat widespread knowledge in the Westerlands, what with the city of Lannisport not so far away, with every man at arms in Casterly Rock most likely taking part, servants and others having knowledge, and Tywin himself (having done egregiously SIMILAR things in the past) having done nothing to keep any detail of this quiet.  He might as well have hired singers to spread the tale throughout the realm with the actions he's taken.  It's not like he's not known for using a fiddler and Rains of Castemere to make points to other bannermen.  I will say it does seem more likely that the Tyrion and Tysha tale is wider known in the West, by both small folk and nobility.  News may travel slow in Westeros, but this is more than just news, it's a salacious story about the most powerful family in the West, just the sort of tale both rich and poor would love.  Plus, it was quite some years ago, Tyrion being 13 at the time and all. 

[Bernie Mac]

On 7/16/2018 at 7:47 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

It's not mock outrage.

It seems it, you have a habit of getting your knickers in a twist over my posts, I was just curious why. 

Quote

 

You're whitewashing horrible gang rape of a child who's only fault was falling in love with his son.

No, I agree it is truly disgusting but there are clear divisions in their society, nobles do not view the smallfolk as equals, they view them as less than and while Tywin may be an extreme example of the elitism in their society it certainly exists. 

As a brit I recognize the great evil we did in Africa and East Asia, as well as the natives of Australia, but I don't blame the people they were ignorant of how wrong they were, I blame the society. GRRM kind of goes into this:

And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

to me Tywin is a product of his times, much like Augustus who commited far more atrocities, he lived almost 60 years and the vast majority of that time he lived a life that would not be called villainous and when he did commit evil acts there was a reason, no matter how ignorant that reason was, for why he did what he did beyond wanting others to suffer

On 7/16/2018 at 7:09 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

 Tywin is the one who made Tyrion's marriage such public knowledge, 

Tyrion's first marriage is not that public. 

 

On 7/16/2018 at 9:49 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

So no one here is saying Tyrion didn't bring shame on his house. We're just saying that the corrective step of organizing the brutal gang rape of a child instead of, say, annulling the obviously invalid marriage and forcing her to join the silent sisters, which Tywin had done to some Tarbecks, speaks as to what kind of man he is. 

 

yup, an abhorrent act, but too Tywin he never thought of them being in love, he saw his naive son and a homeless peasant and he tried to teach him that she was beneath him, that anyone could have sex with her kind and it cost far less than a marriage. 

the act was certainly evil but then I can look back at acts my ancestors did and recognize them as evil without thinking the people are. no doubt in centuries time there may be acts we take for granted as fair what later generations will regard as awful. 

 

21 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

 Notice how Kevan and the rest of the Lannisters are not obsessed with restoring the family image?

well two things, it had already been restored by Tywin and how do you know Kevan was not equally as passionate considering the teenage Kevan was the one tasked with collecting the Houses debts. 

Quote

 

Comparing Tyrion to Tywin is a fools errand because Tywin's direct actions and orders had such a larger effect than anything Tyrion could hope to do

Of course they do, they are at different levels of power. But that has nothing to do with villainy, a prime minister/president can make a decision that sees hundreds killed, that does not make them more evil than a serial killer

 

3 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I'm thinking it would be somewhat widespread knowledge in the Westerlands, what with the city of Lannisport not so far away, with every man at arms in Casterly Rock 

every man did not take part, a castle the size of Casterly Rock and a house as rich as the lannisters will have more than a 100 man at arms., more importantly Tyrion can barely remember it

before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her. He had been thinking of those guardsmen during his flight, trying to recall how many there had been. You would think he might remember that, but no. A dozen? A score? A hundred? He could not say. 

a hundred seems an exaggeration rather than an actual estimate 

[The Wolves]

21 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I personally think Tywin is just as much of a villain as Joffrey or Ramsay, with only Euron Greyjoy being worse. Tywin knows and releases Gregor Clegane on people knowing exactly what he does. If Joffrey had been trained by Tywin, it is very possible Joffrey would have his own Gregor Clegane to do his dirty work for him. I will grant that Joffrey and Ramsay might well be sociopaths, and they enjoy the torture/killing, but I somehow thinks that makes Tywin worse. If Tywin causes all that death and he doesn't even have the excuse that he enjoys it, that is even worse in my opinion. Also the gang rape of a child is perhaps the most viscerally uncomfortable part of the entire book. I honestly do not understand people who "like" or "respect" Tywin. But then again, I don't understand people who followed Hitler or voted for Trump either. Seems like the whole ends justify the means always falls apart anyways. Hitler made Germany strong, but eventually led to their doom. The same is/already has happened to the Westerlands/the Lannisters. Tywin wasn't a good leader. His actions will in reflection have led to the destruction or near destruction of his house (maybe Tyrion survives to repopulate the Lannisters). Kevan is dead. Jaime turned down his offer. Tyrion murdered him. Cersei will try to follow his example and cause a rift between the one house he managed to ally with. Joffrey is dead. Tommen is unlikely to survive much longer. And by the way for people on here defending the sack of King's Landing, it is said repeatedly that it was particularly brutal, and Eddard would have been the one taking King's Landing had Tywin not arrived (and it would have gone very differently). Also he showed the snake he was, as he essentially lied saying he was there to defend King's Landing only to burn it. Also if Jaime had not been there, King's Landing would have burned something horrific because of Tywin's actions. I am sorry, I just cannot understand people defending this evil evil man. 

Thank you!! Tywin was a monster and Ferrara villain. 

[Vhagar's Ghost]

On 7/16/2018 at 6:37 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Holy moly. What is going on in the forum these days? Is it the heat?

Best response in this thread so far. Just saying.

Also, I think people take the "everyone is grey morally" thing way too far. I think objectively you can be completely evil. Like Euron for instance, and Ramsay, those two have nothing good in them, not a single goddamn thing good about them.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 7/15/2018 at 7:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

I don't disagree that Tywin id prideful, but I there was more motivations that pride. 

We are not discussing everything Tywin ever did, we are discussing the motivation for his atrocities. 

On 7/15/2018 at 7:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

You might be missing parts of the story, the Reynes killed Tywin's grandfather only a few years before, they were repeatedly given the chance to surrender and chose to rebel, their fate was in their own hands and they chose war. 

I'm not missing part of the story I am looking at the incident in which he sealed in and drowned hundreds of people, Men, women, the elderly, infants, children, of all classes both the nobility and the household.  That includes minor nobles serving at the castle, their septa's and septon, their maester, the serving staff, and pages or squires or companion maids fostered there at the time.  

What Tywin did has gone down in history precisely because it was so out of the ordinary, so outside of what is expected when feuds break out. And it is this incident not his standing up to the Reyne's in reaction to their pushing their status that marks him out as a villain. 

And it was this action which was motivated by Tywins pride. He was incensed that they dared to infringe upon the mighty Lannisters and it was his feelings of impotence to prevent the degradation of his families name; fostered during his fathers lifetime, which led to this atrocity. Ergo; his pride. 

On 7/15/2018 at 7:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Yup, as well as the fact that she had taken his mothers jewelry and ruled the realm, poorly, while Ttyos is alive. 

Again motivated by his own pride. He was angry that this commoner dared to wear his mother jewels! How dare she who is so much lower than he wear the House treasure, that is what the jewels are in a dynastic family too they are not a personal object in so much as they are great showy pieces designed to advertise the families great wealth and status and are passed on from one generation to the next they don't belong so much to the women who wear then as to the House itself.  Draping ones bride in the family diamonds is a status symbol, and for a commoner a mistress no less to wear them sends a clear message too. 

 

On 7/15/2018 at 7:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

But this is part of GRRM's world, he explains there are consequences jumping out of the social standing, GRRM explains it better than I ever could

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

If the keeping the commoners in their place is villainous then all the nobility in the series are villains. 

Yes, he shows the consequences of social infractions however I doubt very much his intent is for us to all go home with the message to doth our caps and tug our forelocks or else.  Given that he is a republican not in the american sense I mean in that he does not support the idea of a monarchy and nobility as a social model. And given that he is writing for a modern audience. in a largely post feudal world. 

Given I'm a socialist my answer to your last point would have to be that yes, to a certain degree they are.  Though perhaps not in the mustache twirling way being suggested. You can look back on our own history and see that the class structure is indeed rooted in wrong doing, it prospers on the backs of the working people, of the enslaved, of exploitation, and the dehumanisation of swathes of people in order for the elite few to justify their behaviour.  But I doubt you came here for a social history lecture. So I'll shut up.

On 7/15/2018 at 7:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

She was. That is how their entire society viewed it. 

 

 Again, just because his feelings would be widely shared does not change their motivation. 

On 7/15/2018 at 7:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

No. Daughters don't get to decide who they marry, Tywin lives and breathes their society, there is zero reason why he would blame Elia or her children (Rhaenys was her daughter) for Aerys choice of daughter-in-law. 

He has the children killed to gain Robert's favor, which he does get as he soon becomes his father-in-law. 

I think there is more to this incident that we first think when we read the books. On face value it seems like an act carried out to win favour with Robert. However, when we delve into the story another picture emerges. 

In ADWD Kevan Lannister thinks about how had Rhaegar married Cersei she would have given him ALL the sons he desired. From this little gem we can ascertain that Rhaegars desire for more sons was public or that at least Tywin knew and discussed it with his brother.  So if Rhaegar was talking about more sons we can assume he was doing so after Elia's last birth confirmed she could not provide them. Which leaves two options that a; Tywin assumed Elia would die and was lining Cersei up as a new bride. or b; that Rhaegar was actually talking about a second wife, and again Tywin wanted Cersei to be that wife. Either way we know that Rhaegar rejected that offer because he did not wed Cersei or wait for his wife to perish. He went out and eloped/abducted Lyanna Stark. Tywin had again been rejected! Not by Aerys this time but by Rhaegar himself.  That wound would be the motivation to not just have Rhaegars legacy killed, as he describes to Tyrion a silken pillow, Elia need not have died etc. But to destroy and to desecrate! 

Tywin Lannister knew what he was doing when he selected Gregor Clegane a man suspected of murdering his own parents and younger sister, and who rumour may have informed him savagely burnt his brothers face as a child.  And Amory Lorch, who was said to have thrown the three year old last male of House Reyne down a well. To be the ones to kill Rhaegars children. Either he wanted them to meet a savage, brutal, degrading end. Or he is a lot less intelligent that the fandom and GRRM himself make him out to be. 

So either he is a sick bastard, a complete imbecile, or he was motivated by his pride to order such a savage humiliating destruction of the Targaryen dynasty. 

On 7/15/2018 at 7:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Again, all the nobles seem to react similarly when their family is on the line. Ned was legally arrested, unlike Tryion, and in response Robb raised an army and marched to war. 

Tywin's behaviour is not exactly that different to other people in power. 

You think Tywin did what he did out of love for Tyrion? 

On 7/15/2018 at 7:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

lol come on, you can do better than this. Tywin and Robb had never actually met in the field. 

The Red Wedding was motivated by Walder's desire for revenge and Roose needing to rid the North of rivals, Tywin was happy for them to do it. 

Robb not only met Lannister forces in the field he trounced them, he captured his son; the one he actually gives a shit about and who is a renowned swordsman, and he also managed to invade Tywins territories.  

The only time Robb's forces lost against the Lannister Army was Roose Boltons defeat. Which is suspect and so can not be a salve to Tywins pride. Besides which after that "defeat" Tywin goes on to loose directly to Edmure Tully under the Stark banners when he pushes north into the Riverlands in an attempt to liberate his own lands from Robb Stark.  

If you don't think the mighty Tywin Lannister would not eel humiliation, and ego induced rage at having been out witted by an untested 15 year old boy then I don't know what to say.  

The red wedding is orchestrated in conjunction with Tywin.  It is Tywin who is in contact with Sybell Westerling  to ensure there is no heir and to manipulate Robb into breaking his marriage pact with Walder Frey in the first place.   And I have no doubt that the entire idea will have been broached by Emmon Frey to his father via Genna Tywins sister given that the deal was that after the Red Wedding Tywin grants Emmon Riverrun as part of the deal. 

[Valyrian Lance]

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So what Robb did and what Tywin did are somehow similar in your opinion? 

Heck no. I am just saying that each can be looked at from different viewpoints and a different picture can be painted. The wonderful nature of ASOIAF is that nobody is without faults, and arguments can really be made that no one is actually truly evil either (as in there are outside forces causing some of their evil acts). Some of those outside forces may be psychological as is the case for Ramsay and Theon who actually seem to have similar complexes driving them. Well, except for maybe Euron, though we probably don't know enough about his character to uncover his motives.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It seems it, you have a habit of getting your knickers in a twist over my posts, I was just curious why. 

No, I agree it is truly disgusting but there are clear divisions in their society, nobles do not view the smallfolk as equals, they view them as less than and while Tywin may be an extreme example of the elitism in their society it certainly exists. 

As a brit I recognize the great evil we did in Africa and East Asia, as well as the natives of Australia, but I don't blame the people they were ignorant of how wrong they were, I blame the society. GRRM kind of goes into this:

And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

to me Tywin is a product of his times, much like Augustus who commited far more atrocities, he lived almost 60 years and the vast majority of that time he lived a life that would not be called villainous and when he did commit evil acts there was a reason, no matter how ignorant that reason was, for why he did what he did beyond wanting others to suffer

Tyrion's first marriage is not that public. 

 

yup, an abhorrent act, but too Tywin he never thought of them being in love, he saw his naive son and a homeless peasant and he tried to teach him that she was beneath him, that anyone could have sex with her kind and it cost far less than a marriage. 

the act was certainly evil but then I can look back at acts my ancestors did and recognize them as evil without thinking the people are. no doubt in centuries time there may be acts we take for granted as fair what later generations will regard as awful. 

 

well two things, it had already been restored by Tywin and how do you know Kevan was not equally as passionate considering the teenage Kevan was the one tasked with collecting the Houses debts. 

Of course they do, they are at different levels of power. But that has nothing to do with villainy, a prime minister/president can make a decision that sees hundreds killed, that does not make them more evil than a serial killer

 

every man did not take part, a castle the size of Casterly Rock and a house as rich as the lannisters will have more than a 100 man at arms., more importantly Tyrion can barely remember it

before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her. He had been thinking of those guardsmen during his flight, trying to recall how many there had been. You would think he might remember that, but no. A dozen? A score? A hundred? He could not say. 

a hundred seems an exaggeration rather than an actual estimate 

I can cut up a post, too, if I found it to be worth my time.  I did not say it was every man, you cut out the word most.  And, that IS the most I have to say. 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

I think that winter itself will play the ultimate villain. Nothing that Tywin, the Mountain or Ramsey does will compare. 

[BlackLightning]

If there is anything Tywin Lannister is known for, it's the fact that he has serious anger issues and massively overreacts.

It's not about right and wrong; it's not about life and death. It's not even about his family.

It's all about Tywin and his pride. His pride in himself and his pride in his family.

In that, he and Cersei are very, very alike. They are narcissists consumed by greed, selfish ambition and self-love and their family members are nothing more than mere breathing extensions of their body and will.

[BlackLightning]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:51 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I personally think Tywin is just as much of a villain as Joffrey or Ramsay, with only Euron Greyjoy being worse. Tywin knows and releases Gregor Clegane on people knowing exactly what he does. If Joffrey had been trained by Tywin, it is very possible Joffrey would have his own Gregor Clegane to do his dirty work for him. I will grant that Joffrey and Ramsay might well be sociopaths, and they enjoy the torture/killing, but I somehow thinks that makes Tywin worse. If Tywin causes all that death and he doesn't even have the excuse that he enjoys it, that is even worse in my opinion. Also the gang rape of a child is perhaps the most viscerally uncomfortable part of the entire book. I honestly do not understand people who "like" or "respect" Tywin. But then again, I don't understand people who followed Hitler or voted for Trump either. Seems like the whole ends justify the means always falls apart anyways. Hitler made Germany strong, but eventually led to their doom. The same is/already has happened to the Westerlands/the Lannisters. Tywin wasn't a good leader. His actions will in reflection have led to the destruction or near destruction of his house (maybe Tyrion survives to repopulate the Lannisters). Kevan is dead. Jaime turned down his offer. Tyrion murdered him. Cersei will try to follow his example and cause a rift between the one house he managed to ally with. Joffrey is dead. Tommen is unlikely to survive much longer. And by the way for people on here defending the sack of King's Landing, it is said repeatedly that it was particularly brutal, and Eddard would have been the one taking King's Landing had Tywin not arrived (and it would have gone very differently). Also he showed the snake he was, as he essentially lied saying he was there to defend King's Landing only to burn it. Also if Jaime had not been there, King's Landing would have burned something horrific because of Tywin's actions. I am sorry, I just cannot understand people defending this evil evil man. 

I was with you until you compared Hitler (and Tywin) to Trump.

It's a terrible, ignorant comparison. Trump has never endorsed the mass torture and murder of innocent people over some a silly political faux pas, a bruised ego or tinfoil racist exceptionalism. Trump also has yet to try and take over the world...unlike Hitler and Tywin with his continent-wide dynastic marriages and alliances (Tyrion to Winterfell, Cersei to Highgarden, Lancel to Darry, Genna to Riverrun, fArya to the Boltons, the Spicers to Castamere, etc.)

I'm not really a fan of his but let's keep it real: Trump is a saint compared to Tywin and Hitler.

And, dear Holy God, I'm really sick and tired of people comparing politicians and pundits that they don't like to Hitler. People did it with Bush and Cheney, people did it to Donald Rumsfeld, people did it with Obama, people did it with Hillary and now people are doing it to Trump … not realizing that what they are really doing is watering down Hitler.

And why does it seem like people think Hitler is the only mass-murdering psycho-tyrant to have befouled the earth. He's not even the worst. Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Zedong weren't exactly cupcakes...and that's only the 20th century we're talking about.

[Vhagar's Ghost]

@Jabar of House Titan Idk, both Hitler and Trump blamed the economy on a group of people, are trying to get rid of a certain group of people, and are just all around racists, so the comparison isn't as bad as people think. Even I thiught it was a bit much but eh... also, Idk what you are trying to say that Hitler wasn't the worst. Can we just agree they are all terrible people? I hate how people turn it into some sort of competition or whatever when we should focus on the fact that these guys are bad. Also, ironic how you say he/she was wattering down Hitler, then go on to say he isn't the worst.

But eh, I don't think it really matters much when talking about Tywin.

[BlackLightning]

6 minutes ago, Vhagar's Ghost said:

@Jabar of House Titan Idk, both Hitler and Trump blamed the economy on a group of people, are trying to get rid of a certain group of people, and are just all around racists, so the comparison isn't as bad as people think.

Hitler was a revisionist and blamed people who had little to nothing to do with Germany's problems. And he - along with every other intelligent person - knew that deep down.

Trump is a legalist who blames people who are partially at fault and lazily lumps a bunch of other people in with the people who are at fault.

Yes, Trump is too fascistic for my liking. But I don't think of him as an all-and-out "let's rob them of everything they own and then enslave them and throw them in ovens when we're finished" racist. Trump is just ignorant, white and rich...and, after all, to be ignorant, white and rich is as much of an American pastime as baseball and apple pie.

20 minutes ago, Vhagar's Ghost said:

@Jabar of House Titan Even I thought it was a bit much but eh... also, Idk what you are trying to say that Hitler wasn't the worst. Can we just agree they are all terrible people? I hate how people turn it into some sort of competition or whatever when we should focus on the fact that these guys are bad. Also, ironic how you say he/she was watering down Hitler, then go on to say he isn't the worst.

But eh, I don't think it really matters much when talking about Tywin.

Well, worst in terms of the amount of people that were killed on his call and the legacy left in his wake, no, Hitler was not the worst. The genocides that happened in Africa, Asia and South America in just the 20th century were very ugly...and very much ignored. Look at the condition that Europe and Israel are in and compare them to the places in Indochina, the Sudan, Venezuela, the Congo, Rwanda, Tibet, El Salvador, etc. … places that still haven't recovered.

So, that's my fault for not saying what I meant. And what I meant was that there are others that we need to talk about and remember. But I guess it's all moot because you're right about the bold part.

It kinda does matter when we are talking about Tywin. Because people like to make it seem like Tywin isn't as bad as Ramsay or Cersei or Gregor because he didn't do XYZ and that every evil thing Tywin did was for the good of his family and the realm...

I hear the same kind of stuff all the time whenever we talk about Catelyn or Sansa. "It's Sansa's fault that Ned and everyone who served him were arrested and executed" or "Catelyn should've never arrested Tyrion if she didn't want the Riverlands to burn"

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If there is anything Tywin Lannister is known for, it's the fact that he has serious anger issues and massively overreacts.

This is actually untrue, Tywin is famous for how unemotional he is. 

His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."

But not in you, Father. There is no blood in Tywin Lannister. 

 

No one in universe thinks of him as  having anger issues.

 

Nor do they associate him as someone who 'massively overreacts', though he, like all characters, is capable of doing so when pushed, wat we usually see is him acting with caution and patience, we see this when he learns of Jaime's defeat and capture and ignoring his generals pleas for rash actions instead choosing to wait for the right moment, the same is shown at council meetings were he ussualy waits to make a decision. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

Heck no. 

well the biggest difference is that Tywin is a veteran ruler of 40 years while Robb has only ruled just over a year. It should come to no surprise that the almost 60 year old Tywin's hands are more bloody than a 16 year old's but in spite of that there are some similarities

 

• Tywin went to war when his son was abducted in the Riverlands, Robb does so when his father is arrested in the capital
• Robb goes West to do to the Westerlands what Tywin has done to the Riverlands "Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands."
• When Tywin hears of a vassal working against him he sends a singer to threaten him, Robb threatens the Greatjon directly of the consequences of not obeying him: Greatjon by his men and stood as tall as Hodor and twice as wide, threatened to take his forces home if he was placed behind the Hornwoods or the Cerwyns in the order of march, Robb told him he was welcome to do so. "And when we are done with the Lannisters," he promised, scratching Grey Wind behind the ear, "we will march back north, root you out of your keep, and hang you for an oathbreaker."

 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

I'm not missing part of the story

Sure you are, by ignoring that there was actually a war going on and that the Reynes refused to bend the knee without Lannister hostages or that they had not only killed Tywin's grandfather but hundreds of other innocent men then you are painting a very different picture to what actually happened. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I am looking at the incident in which he sealed in and drowned hundreds of people, Men, women, the elderly, infants, children, of all classes both the nobility and the household.  That includes minor nobles serving at the castle, their septa's and septon, their maester, the serving staff, and pages or squires or companion maids fostered there at the time.  

And a huge tragedy, but such is war in medieval times. The innocent suffer the most. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

What Tywin did has gone down in history precisely because it was so out of the ordinary, so outside of what is expected when feuds break out.

it is actually not, the history of ice and fire makes that more than clear

Chronicles found in the archives of the Night's Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King's last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors.

House Greenwood, House Towers, House Amber, and House Frost met similar ends, together with a score of lesser houses and petty kings whose very names are lost to history. 

 

Houses that rebel and refuse to make peace are always in danger of being wiped out.  It is a little disingenuous to think what happened to the Tarbecks and Reynes was not expected. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And it is this incident not his standing up to the Reyne's in reaction to their pushing their status that marks him out as a villain. 

not really.  it was the only way to end the Reynes, Tywin did not force them to take 300 hostages nor did he prevent any of them leaving in the weeks they were under siege. unfortunately they were collateral damage, but as we saw at Tarbeck Hall anyone not named Tarbeck who wanted to leave was free to do so

When Ser Kevan Lannister approached under a peace banner to demand her surrender, she laughed at him, and said, “You are not the only lions in the west, ser.  My brothers are coming, and their claws are just as long and sharp as yours.”....Those who fled were spared; those who fought were put to the sword.  

 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And it was this action which was motivated by Tywins pride.

it was motivated by them rebelling. 

The Reynes and Tarbecks chose defiance instead, as Ser Tywin surely knew they would.  Both Houses rose in open revolt, renouncing their fealty to Casterly Rock.  Tywin Lannister called the banners.

you are reading a very different series to the one being written if you actually believe any other  lord would do nothing as their vassals rebelled. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

He was incensed that they dared to infringe upon the mighty Lannisters and it was his feelings of impotence to prevent the degradation of his families name; fostered during his fathers lifetime, which led to this atrocity. Ergo; his pride. 

except that is clearly wrong as we saw him try to negotiate peace and allow the innocent smallfolk to flee at Tarbeck Hall. The innocent 100 or so at Castamere were collateral damage, it happens in war, but Tywin did not want his own men dying trying to take a very well defended underground castle. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Again motivated by his own pride. He was angry that this commoner dared to wear his mother jewels! How dare she who is so much lower than he wear the House treasure,

as the author points out

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

Tywin is a man of his society. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes, he shows the consequences of social infractions however I doubt very much his intent is for us to all go home with the message to doth our caps and tug our forelocks or else.  Given that he is a republican not in the american sense I mean in that he does not support the idea of a monarchy and nobility as a social model. And given that he is writing for a modern audience. in a largely post feudal world. 

eh? GRRM is not a republican

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Given I'm a socialist my answer to your last point would have to be that yes, to a certain degree they are. 

i'm sorry, but we are not debating your views.  your politics is on immaterial on this discussion, as are mine. but for the record the last two elections have seen me vote for Corbyn, one of the most socialist current leaders of a major political party in the world, but our modern day views on politics have little bearing on a series based on the middle ages

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Again, just because his feelings would be widely shared does not change their motivation. 

 I'm missing your point. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think there is more to this incident that we first think when we read the books. On face value it seems like an act carried out to win favour with Robert. However, when we delve into the story another picture emerges. 

not really, you have to really want it to be the case. 

Tywin is a misogynist in a misogynist society, he is not going to think Elia had any control over the marriage. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Tywin Lannister knew what he was doing when he selected Gregor Clegane a man suspected of murdering his own parents and younger sister,

no, you are mixing up the timeline, both father and sister died during Robert's reign. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So either he is a sick bastard, a complete imbecile, or he was motivated by his pride to order such a savage humiliating destruction of the Targaryen dynasty. 

or you know, you are jumping to conclusions that are not supported by the book. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You think Tywin did what he did out of love for Tyrion? 

I think he did it for what, he believed, to be in Tyrion's best interests. Tyrion marrying homeless peasants after knowing them a week is not in Tyrion's best interests. Him confusing sex and love for the same thing is also not in Tyrion's best interests

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Robb not only met Lannister forces in the field he trounced them, he captured his son; the one he actually gives a shit about and who is a renowned swordsman, and he also managed to invade Tywins territories.  

that is what happens in war, I'm not sure of your  point . 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

If you don't think the mighty Tywin Lannister would not eel humiliation, and ego induced rage at having been out witted by an untested 15 year old boy then I don't know what to say.  

but he was not out witted, the war was long won before the red wedding

Ser Harys Haigh, who was a Frey on his mother's side, nodded vigorously. "If Lord Tywin could defeat a seasoned man like Stannis Baratheon, what chance will our boy king have against him?" He looked round to his brothers and cousins for support, and several of them muttered agreement.

"Someone must have the courage to say it," Ser Hosteen said. "The war is lost. King Robb must be made to see that."

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

n ADWD Kevan Lannister thinks about how had Rhaegar married Cersei she would have given him ALL the sons he desired. From this little gem we can ascertain that Rhaegars desire for more sons was public or that at least Tywin knew and discussed it with his brother.  

Yeah, him wanting more sons is going to be the common assumption-you know, in case the first dies, there's a backup readyily available to perform his duties as King. Rheagar no more needed to announce he wanted more sons than he need announce he liked to eat food. 

 

 

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So if Rhaegar was talking about more sons we can assume he was doing so after Elia's last birth confirmed she could not provide them.

He did not need to talk of anything; people are naturally(and rightly) going to assume he wants more sons.

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Which leaves two options that a; Tywin assumed Elia would die and was lining Cersei up as a new bride. or b; that Rhaegar was actually talking about a second wife, and again Tywin wanted Cersei to be that wife. Either way we know that Rhaegar rejected that offer because he did not wed Cersei or wait for his wife to perish. He went out and eloped/abducted Lyanna Stark. Tywin had again been rejected! Not by Aerys this time but by Rhaegar himself.  That wound would be the motivation to not just have Rhaegars legacy killed, as he describes to Tyrion a silken pillow, Elia need not have died etc. But to destroy and to desec

We are given no indication such an offer was even made in the firstplace. Elia not being able to birth more children, would  make Cersi automatically runner up even in Tywin's mind, Aerys would still have approve the divorce proceedings and allow Rheagar to marry Cersi-which he would not do. Tywin would have wanted Cersi to have been Rheagar's wife, but he'd be blind if he ever thought that was still likely.

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Tywin Lannister knew what he was doing when he selected Gregor Clegane a man suspected of murdering his own parents and younger sister, and who rumour may have informed him savagely burnt his brothers face as a child.  And Amory Lorch, who was said to have thrown the three year old last male of House Reyne down a well. To be the ones to kill Rhaegars children. Either he wanted them to meet a savage, brutal, degrading end. Or he is a lot less intelligent that the fandom and GRRM himself make him out to be. 

Gregore so far we know has not been  suspected of murderering his mother; we aren't given any information about her in general. There are suspicions of him murdering his father; but this would have happened after Robert since that's when his father actually died. Gregor's father explained Sandor's burnings as a fire breaking out in Sandors bed.  Tywin is not keeping tabs on family life of such a such as the Cleaganes, they're merely not that important at this point.  Tywin had no real reason to suspect Gregore was a monster, anymore than Rheagar did. 

 

Lorch probably did kill the last Tarbek, but the ultimate how was immaterial to Tywin. 

 

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Again motivated by his own pride. He was angry that this commoner dared to wear his mother jewels! How dare she who is so much lower than he wear the House treasure, that is what the jewels are in a dynastic family too they are not a personal object in so much as they are great showy pieces designed to advertise the families great wealth and status and are passed on from one generation to the next they don't belong so much to the women who wear then as to the House itself.  Draping ones bride in the family diamonds is a status symbol, and for a commoner a mistress no less to wear them sends a clear message too. 

The situation was simply more about than one man's pride; recognition that such an act needed sever punishment would be enough to most lords to act similarly(hell some may even go farther and have the "whore" raped and/or whipped till she's close to dead). If he(the young new lord), doesn't react to this with an iron hand how on earth can he possibly make it so that his vassals know they can exploit house lanister; they're not going to pay their dedts, if Tywin won't even punish a peasant for such a grave insult, his family by a result would be hurt. It's not just about him. 

Inaction and percieved weakness places all lanisters at risk.

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm not missing part of the story I am looking at the incident in which he sealed in and drowned hundreds of people, Men, women, the elderly, infants, children, of all classes both the nobility and the household.  That includes minor nobles serving at the castle, their septa's and septon, their maester, the serving staff, and pages or squires or companion maids fostered there at the time.  

What Tywin did has gone down in history precisely because it was so out of the ordinary, so outside of what is expected when feuds break out. And it is this incident not his standing up to the Reyne's in reaction to their pushing their status that marks him out as a villain. 

And it was this action which was motivated by Tywins pride. He was incensed that they dared to infringe upon the mighty Lannisters and it was his feelings of impotence to prevent the degradation of his families name; fostered during his fathers lifetime, which led to this atrocity. Ergo; his pride. 

The Tarbecks refused to surrender, but Tywin did make abundantly clear anyone besides them could leave unmolested should they wish to. The Reynes' stipulations  for surrender were completely insane, Tywin would  have to give up his brothers as hostages to the Reynes. Any other way besides sealing the mines and killing them all, would result in significant casualties of Tywin's followers and possibly fail.

Destoying houses that simply won't surrender is rare but it can happen; the biggest example I can think of is Aegon I wiping out Harren's entire line after the man refused to surrender; no one regards the man as if was a monster for they recognize the extremity of the situation.

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On July 17, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I'm thinking it would be somewhat widespread knowledge in the Westerlands, what with the city of Lannisport not so far away, with every man at arms in Casterly Rock most likely taking part, servants and others having knowledge, and Tywin himself (having done egregiously SIMILAR things in the past) having done nothing to keep any detail of this quiet.  He might as well have hired singers to spread the tale throughout the realm with the actions he's taken.  It's not like he's not known for using a fiddler and Rains of Castemere to make points to other bannermen.  I will say it does seem more likely that the Tyrion and Tysha tale is wider known in the West, by both small folk and nobility.  News may travel slow in Westeros, but this is more than just news, it's a salacious story about the most powerful family in the West, just the sort of tale both rich and poor would love.  Plus, it was quite some years ago, Tyrion being 13 at the time and all. 

As @Bernie Mac points out, 100 men having raped Tysha seems to be an exaggeration.   I'll admit to have suspected that but only because I thought it was forty; I don't know where I got that number from. A few hand picked guards(probably less than a dozen at the most), probably would be a reasonble guess on the actual number in my opinion.  

Tales of great lords acting cruelly or such aren't rare to hea  hell Ned just about says such things are spread about every great lord; Eddard IX "I've also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home. Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm

 

 

Ultimately, the amount of guards seems inconsequential; if it is known widely across westerlands Tywi had a peasant abused even sexually it would not shame house lanister among the nobility (seriously even if most didn't discount it as one of those tales peasants spread to demonize their betters and have some fun)  anywhere close to the level shame they'd be dealt should knews of its lord's son marrying an orphan peasant.That is the news Tywin wants to actually suppress; not that he treated a peasant girl badly-something to which most his vassals and peers would shrugg off as not being something to really fret about-likely at least a few would probably think she gave Tywin cause. 

Doubtful there aren't an abundance of rumours of Tywin' commiting X uber violent act, that are as juicy or more so; more than a fair share either being completely untrue, or exaggerated to the point of unacy; Tysha's rape would be a raindrop in an ocean. 

 

[Bernie Mac]

38 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Tales of great lords acting cruelly or such aren't rare to hea  hell Ned just about says such things are spread about every great lord;

Case in point, what Riverrun heard of Robb's victory at Oxcross

the Lannisters in their watchtowers got not so much a glimpse of them." Rivers lowered his voice. "There's some say that after the battle, the king cut out Stafford Lannister's heart and fed it to the wolf."

"I would not believe such tales," Catelyn said sharply. "My son is no savage."

 

and what Kings Landing heard

 

Sansa had always thought Lancel Lannister comely and well spoken, but there was neither pity nor kindness in the look he gave her. "Using some vile sorcery, your brother fell upon Ser Stafford Lannister with an army of wargs, not three days ride from Lannisport. Thousands of good men were butchered as they slept, without the chance to lift sword. After the slaughter, the northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain."

 

 

[Vhagar's Ghost]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah, him wanting more sons is going to be the common assumption-you know, in case the first dies, there's a backup readyily available to perform his duties as King. Rheagar no more needed to announce he wanted more sons than he need announce he liked to eat food. 

 

 

He did not need to talk of anything; people are naturally(and rightly) going to assume he wants more sons.

We are given no indication such an offer was even made in the firstplace. Elia not being able to birth more children, would  make Cersi automatically runner up even in Tywin's mind, Aerys would still have approve the divorce proceedings and allow Rheagar to marry Cersi-which he would not do. Tywin would have wanted Cersi to have been Rheagar's wife, but he'd be blind if he ever thought that was still likely.

Gregore so far we know has not been  suspected of murderering his mother; we aren't given any information about her in general. There are suspicions of him murdering his father; but this would have happened after Robert since that's when his father actually died. Gregor's father explained Sandor's burnings as a fire breaking out in Sandors bed.  Tywin is not keeping tabs on family life of such a such as the Cleaganes, they're merely not that important at this point.  Tywin had no real reason to suspect Gregore was a monster, anymore than Rheagar did. 

 

Lorch probably did kill the last Tarbek, but the ultimate how was immaterial to Tywin. 

 

The situation was simply more about than one man's pride; recognition that such an act needed sever punishment would be enough to most lords to act similarly(hell some may even go farther and have the "whore" raped and/or whipped till she's close to dead). If he(the young new lord), doesn't react to this with an iron hand how on earth can he possibly make it so that his vassals know they can exploit house lanister; they're not going to pay their dedts, if Tywin won't even punish a peasant for such a grave insult, his family by a result would be hurt. It's not just about him. 

Inaction and percieved weakness places all lanisters at risk.

The Tarbecks refused to surrender, but Tywin did make abundantly clear anyone besides them could leave unmolested should they wish to. The Reynes' stipulations  for surrender were completely insane, Tywin would  have to give up his brothers as hostages to the Reynes. Any other way besides sealing the mines and killing them all, would result in significant casualties of Tywin's followers and possibly fail.

Destoying houses that simply won't surrender is rare but it can happen; the biggest example I can think of is Aegon I wiping out Harren's entire line after the man refused to surrender; no one regards the man as if was a monster for they recognize the extremity of the situation.

 

 

Problem with using Harren as an example is that we know for a fact he was outright cruel and sadistic, not anything like the Tarbeck's or Reyne's (far as I know)