Was Tywin Lannister a villain?

[Bernie Mac]

26 minutes ago, Vhagar's Ghost said:

Problem with using Harren as an example is that we know for a fact he was outright cruel and sadistic, not anything like the Tarbeck's or Reyne's (far as I know)

Harren refusing to bend the knee is the reason his house (and everyone else at with him) was wiped out, it had nothing to do with him being cruel or sadistic. 

but regardless Roger Reyne was capable of  cruelty

Others slain upon that grievous day included Lord Robert Reyne.  Ser Roger Reyne (the Red Lion), his eldest son and heir, took a bloody vengeance after the battle, slaying seven captive Peakes before Prince Aegon arrived to halt the slaughter.

 

and and had pushed their luck frequently

 

Lord Tytos had commanded his good-father sternly not to involve the Reynes “for we have no quarrel with Castamere,” but that did not stop Lady Tarbeck from sending to her brothers.  Denys Marbrand (tywin's grandfather) and his knights were still two days ride from Tarbeck Hall when the Red Lion fell upon his camp in the night, slaying hundreds, amongst them old Marbrand himself.  When word reached Casterly Rock, loud cries went out for war, and Maester Belden tells us that Lord Tytos “turned as purple as a plum, and could not speak for his wroth.”

Yet even before the banners could be called, Ser Reynard Reyne appeared at court with his easy smile and sly tongue, to make obesience before the Lion’s Mouth.  Lord Marbrand’s death had been a “tragic misunderstanding,” Ser Reynard said; his brother had believed he was attacking a band of outlaws and robber knights.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But elsewhere, the collectors were met with sullen resistance and open defiance.  Lord Reyne reportedly laughed when his maester read him Ser Tywin’s edicts, and counseled his friends and vassals to do nothing.  “The cub will soon grow weary of chasing his own tail,” he said. . . yet he set about strengthening the defenses of Castamere as well.

War was years in the making and each time the Reynes were let off for something their behaviour only got worse.

[Eli Cross]

On 7/14/2018 at 11:43 AM, Rosetta Stone said:

I want to examine the evidence because the order of the green hand is a fan of this man.  

1. He killed the families of the Reynes.
2. He killed the famiies of the Tarbecks.
3. He obeyed King Aerys II and killed the families of the Darklyns.
4. He had Rhaegar's family killed.
5. He ordered the sack of King's Landing.
6. The Red Wedding was done with his approval.
7. Tyrion's trial was rigged.  He was bedding Shae.  Tywin set up Tyrion to fall.

Can you justify any of these?  Tywin is not a villain if you can justify his actions.  I am not sure I can give him an excuse for most of his decisions but I leave that for you to discuss.  

He went too far with the Reynes and Tarbecks.  The parents rebelled but the children were innocent.  I guess her killed the servants too?  Not justified.

The Darklyns assaulted the king.  The parents deserved to die but the children should be spared.  I don't remember if the Darklyns had children but they too are innocent.  Justified to kill the parents but not their children.

The children should be spared and fostered away from King's Landing.  No need to murder them and their mom.

The sack of the city is the inevitable result of war.  Tywin can't stop it.  

Tywin didn't break guest rights.  That was Walder Frey and Roose Bolton.  

Cersei rigged the trial.  Tywin was fair.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Case in point, what Riverrun heard of Robb's victory at Oxcross

the Lannisters in their watchtowers got not so much a glimpse of them." Rivers lowered his voice. "There's some say that after the battle, the king cut out Stafford Lannister's heart and fed it to the wolf."

"I would not believe such tales," Catelyn said sharply. "My son is no savage."

 

and what Kings Landing heard

 

Sansa had always thought Lancel Lannister comely and well spoken, but there was neither pity nor kindness in the look he gave her. "Using some vile sorcery, your brother fell upon Ser Stafford Lannister with an army of wargs, not three days ride from Lannisport. Thousands of good men were butchered as they slept, without the chance to lift sword. After the slaughter, the northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain."

 

 

Exactly. In to to be clear the first rumours was being spread by Robb's own men. Truth be told Tywin ordering a gangrape of a peasant probably isn't even among the most scandalous tales that would be passed around the westerlands;

2 hours ago, Vhagar's Ghost said:

Problem with using Harren as an example is that we know for a fact he was outright cruel and sadistic, not anything like the Tarbeck's or Reyne's (far as I know)

The Tarnecks and Reynes would continuously bully their liege, mocking him in front of his vassals just for giggles,  and responding violently to any any attempt to actually get them to pay their dedts. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure you are, by ignoring that there was actually a war going on and that the Reynes refused to bend the knee without Lannister hostages or that they had not only killed Tywin's grandfather but hundreds of other innocent men then you are painting a very different picture to what actually happened. 

Non of that changes what Tywin was motivated by in doing something so thoroughly atrocious.  I'm not ignoring the background. I think you are confused about what you are arguing about. 

 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He did not need to talk of anything; people are naturally(and rightly) going to assume he wants more sons.

Absolute Bull Shit! This is a book the information given to us is deliberate and meaningful. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

We are given no indication such an offer was even made in the firstplace. Elia not being able to birth more children, would  make Cersi automatically runner up even in Tywin's mind, Aerys would still have approve the divorce proceedings and allow Rheagar to marry Cersi-which he would not do. Tywin would have wanted Cersi to have been Rheagar's wife, but he'd be blind if he ever thought that was still likely.

The indication is in the fact Tywin went ape shit. Now I'm not going to labour this point too much as it is only loosely supported and my point here is Tywin's emotional motivation more than the direct reason. You are of course talking shit about divorce etc. This is all happening in a situation where Rhaegar is planning on usurping his fathers crown and becoming at the least regent. 

We know he was holding out for a Targaryen husband and that this is why he kept her at court with him all those years and un betrothed. 

Besides all of which Tywin was so bent out of shape over Aerys and their own relationship and the relationship between Joanna & Aerys whatever actually happened there that his pride is undoubtedly the reason he went so OTT. 

I just happen to think that when an author subtlety places a little info drop in book 5 about the central mystery that its pertinent. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Gregore so far we know has not been  suspected of murderering his mother; we aren't given any information about her in general. There are suspicions of him murdering his father; but this would have happened after Robert since that's when his father actually died. Gregor's father explained Sandor's burnings as a fire breaking out in Sandors bed.  Tywin is not keeping tabs on family life of such a such as the Cleaganes, they're merely not that important at this point.  Tywin had no real reason to suspect Gregore was a monster, anymore than Rheagar did. 

 

Lorch probably did kill the last Tarbek, but the ultimate how was immaterial to Tywin. 

 Gregor was known to be a monster the author goes to lengths to let us know this.  And Tywin knew what Lorch was too. We are specifically told about the well drowning incident to ensure that we know Lorch was a known psycho. 

The ultimate how being unimportant to Tywin does not negate that he knew what Lorch was when he selected who would breach the Targaryen nursery. 

Again you are arguing something other than the point. Your concern comes across not as to what Tywin's motivation in these actions would be but in trying to convince others that his crimes where excusable. And taht is not what we are discussing. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The situation was simply more about than one man's pride; recognition that such an act needed sever punishment would be enough to most lords to act similarly(hell some may even go farther and have the "whore" raped and/or whipped till she's close to dead). If he(the young new lord), doesn't react to this with an iron hand how on earth can he possibly make it so that his vassals know they can exploit house lanister; they're not going to pay their dedts, if Tywin won't even punish a peasant for such a grave insult, his family by a result would be hurt. It's not just about him. 

Inaction and percieved weakness places all lanisters at risk.

Sigh, you are missing the point of the argument. It is not if most nobles would do similar but what his motivating emotion would be. And once again you are focused on excusing Tywin because you think the social structure justifies his actions. 

If any noble did the same the motivation would be wounded ego. The nobility functions on a system which is upheld in large by instilling a sense of superiority in the nobles as children. Their sense of entitlement is fostered early on and that entitlement leads to a prideful outlook. Tywin is given to us as an extreme example.

Most Nobles would find a solution which did not involve sexual violence. Can you imagine Ned having a girl Bran married gang raped? Or making his son do such a thing?  Doran Martell if Trystane did the same? Would Mace Tyrell do the same thing as Tywin? if a younger son made social faux pas? 

Because alienating ones son by committing atrocities against the person he loves is extreme behaviour. Look at how Aegon V deals with Duncan's marriage to Jenny of Old Stones.  

Tywin dials it up to 11 on more than one occasion and his motivating emotion is always his ego his prideful nature, and pride comes before a fall.

This morality tale ends with him dying on the shitter, his pride and joy his son and heir is locked into the KG and has committed Incest and adultery. His daughter is a cuckolding incestuous ineffectual Queen & Mother who half the nation view as a whore.  His second son is a dwarf who as far as he knows has murdered his own nephew the King. He could not have fallen further.

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The Tarbecks refused to surrender, but Tywin did make abundantly clear anyone besides them could leave unmolested should they wish to. The Reynes' stipulations  for surrender were completely insane, Tywin would  have to give up his brothers as hostages to the Reynes. Any other way besides sealing the mines and killing them all, would result in significant casualties of Tywin's followers and possibly fail.

Destoying houses that simply won't surrender is rare but it can happen; the biggest example I can think of is Aegon I wiping out Harren's entire line after the man refused to surrender; no one regards the man as if was a monster for they recognize the extremity of the situation.

Again, this is not a discussion about whether Tywin was justified, or had little choice, etc. It is about the motivation. His pride was the motivation he saw himself as above the Reyne's how dare they defy him! 

His pride motivated him to commit an act of atrocity. One which made him notorious. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah, him wanting more sons is going to be the common assumption-you know, in case the first dies, there's a backup readyily available to perform his duties as King. Rheagar no more needed to announce he wanted more sons than he need announce he liked to eat food. 

This is a book. Not real life. The words on the paper are intentional. No body ever mentions Rhaegars desire for more sons up to ADWD and the epilogue by Kevan Lannister. A man who's brother was Aerys's Hand and close to the court. And who desperately wanted his daughter to be Queen. 

If the author decides to drop information about Rhaegar wanting more sons suddenly and from this source I'd bet it is important info. 

So many people treat these characters as though they are real and this all really happened rather than understanding that authors only write what they want to convey. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Oh dear my apologies. I seem to have got my Tywin fanboys mixed up. I would go back and re write everything and address it all properly and individually but it's quarter to nine on a school day. 

The point is not if Tywin is justified in what he does but that his pride makes him do it. 

[Lion of the West]

Tywin is obviously not a villain but can be seen as an antagonist to the Starks and Tyrion.

But being one of the most influential and interesting characters in the series, and very well written at that, Tywin naturally creates reactions and reflections from readers.

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Tywin is obviously not a villain but can be seen as an antagonist to the Starks and Tyrion.

But being one of the most influential and interesting characters in the series, and very well written at that, Tywin naturally creates reactions and reflections from readers.

How is he obviously not a villain? Almost every inhumane brutal act done in this series have been connected to Tywin. 

He has ordered some of the worst acts against women, men, and children nearly all innocent. I get that the character is interesting and complex but just because you can see his reasonings(though I can’t understand how anyone can justify anything Tywin does) doesn’t mean that he is not a villain or evil. 

 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

15 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

As @Bernie Mac points out, 100 men having raped Tysha seems to be an exaggeration.   I'll admit to have suspected that but only because I thought it was forty; I don't know where I got that number from. A few hand picked guards(probably less than a dozen at the most), probably would be a reasonble guess on the actual number in my opinion.  

Tales of great lords acting cruelly or such aren't rare to hea  hell Ned just about says such things are spread about every great lord; Eddard IX "I've also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home. Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm

 

 

Ultimately, the amount of guards seems inconsequential; if it is known widely across westerlands Tywi had a peasant abused even sexually it would not shame house lanister among the nobility (seriously even if most didn't discount it as one of those tales peasants spread to demonize their betters and have some fun)  anywhere close to the level shame they'd be dealt should knews of its lord's son marrying an orphan peasant.That is the news Tywin wants to actually suppress; not that he treated a peasant girl badly-something to which most his vassals and peers would shrugg off as not being something to really fret about-likely at least a few would probably think she gave Tywin cause. 

Doubtful there aren't an abundance of rumours of Tywin' commiting X uber violent act, that are as juicy or more so; more than a fair share either being completely untrue, or exaggerated to the point of unacy; Tysha's rape would be a raindrop in an ocean. 

 

40 guards to 100 guards?  The point is that it's not 1 or 2 people that are easily kept quiet.  And, about that quiet........the spectacle Tywin made of Tysha, including Tyrion in said spectacle as well, does not do anything to hide any facts about their marriage.  If anything, the spectacle leaves every one in Casterly Rock (whether they participated or not in the actual rape) knowing there was something about the situation (and Tyrion) that was a big deal.  My initial post in this thread was an observation that said spectacle in itself does nothing to quietly rectify the situation. 

Considering this thread seems to have become just another exercise in

#GotchaPosting

and

#BizarroIceAndFire

I'm not really interested in further dissecting the wisdom of Tywin's villainy, be it in regard to the Tysha and Tyrion episode specifically or in any other general fashion. 

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Non of that changes what Tywin was motivated by in doing something so thoroughly atrocious.  I'm not ignoring the background. I think you are confused about what you are arguing about. 

no, I'm perfectly clear. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The indication is in the fact Tywin went ape shit.

There is zero indication that Tywin went 'ape shit'.  Either you don't know what that phrase means or you are unfamiliar with the books. By all means quote the text that indicates that Tywin went 'ape shit' over this. 

When you resort to inventing events that never took place in the books to prove your point it indicates that your point is far from solid. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

We know he was holding out for a Targaryen husband and that this is why he kept her at court with him all those years and un betrothed. 

Of course he was, marrying your daughter to royalty is pretty much the best any noble can hope for in their society.  There is nothing villainous about that at all. You are jumping to some bizarre conclusions. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Besides all of which Tywin was so bent out of shape over Aerys and their own relationship and the relationship between Joanna & Aerys whatever actually happened there that his pride is undoubtedly the reason he went so OTT. 

Except that is all unsupported by the text, despite how shitty Aerys acted towards him he remained as Hand and despite his own dislike for Aerys he remains pragmatic throughout the war, refusing to pick a side until one looks like a clear winner. Someone who that bent out of shape would have joined the rebels much sooner, not at the very last minute. 

the text goes directly against your headcannon. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I just happen to think that when an author subtlety places a little info drop in book 5 about the central mystery that its pertinent. 

in that same chapter Kevan points out that joining the crown was still an option when he was thinking of Connington. Quite obviously Tywin was still being pragmatic about the situation. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 Gregor was known to be a monster the author goes to lengths to let us know this.

not when he was a teenager and only recently knighted by Rhaegar. You were clearly confused about the timeline thinking that he had already killed his sister and father at this point, when that comes later

 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Again you are arguing something other than the point. Your concern comes across not as to what Tywin's motivation in these actions would be but in trying to convince others that his crimes where excusable. And taht is not what we are discussing. 

yeah we are,  it is clearly stated in OP's post, they are asking can Tywin's actions be justified. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Sigh,

is there any need to be this condescending to strangers on the internet for the crime of not sharing your opinion? 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

you are missing the point of the argument.

actually I think you are, OP's question is pretty clear, it is you who is trying to change the discussion, which I have no problem with, but the person you are responding to is more on topic than you are. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It is not if most nobles would do similar but what his motivating emotion would be. And once again you are focused on excusing Tywin because you think the social structure justifies his actions. 

It is a valid argument, the social norms of an era are an important part of this discussion. 

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

If any noble did the same the motivation would be wounded ego.

no, that is clearly wrong and a little naive. To think that the only reason such awful acts happened throughout history is due to a wounded ego is ridiculous

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

His pride motivated him to commit an act of atrocity. One which made him notorious. 

You are clearly misreading how their society view that event, they don't view it as an atrocity, they celebrate it as a great victory. Do you really think all those singers at the wedding between Joffrey and Margaery would be singing about an atrocity at a wedding?

 

 

[Dofs]

Tywin is clearly a villain but not on the same scale as Gregor, Cersei, Ramsey and the likes. And while he is absolutely a piece of shit, many make him out to be far worse than he actually was, as if because he is a terrible man in some things, he must be terrible in literally everything. 

[HoodedCrow]

Okay, hands up who would want Tywin as a Daddy? How about as a liege lord, or even a hand? A judge? A wedding planner?

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Okay, hands up who would want Tywin as a Daddy? How about as a liege lord, or even a hand? A judge? A wedding planner?

Only way I can put the words "want" and "Tywin" together in one sentence is,

"I want for Tywin to die much sooner than he did".

[Dofs]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

Okay, hands up who would want Tywin as a Daddy? 

No way.

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

How about as a liege lord

Would prefer him over his father at least, and over Roose and some others as well. The Westerlands seemed to be well managed under Tywin.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

a hand

Well, he has a good resume.

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

A judge

No, he is a hardcore elitist.

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

A wedding planner

He didn't actually plan RW, just approve it, so you can't say how good of a wedding planner he would be. But because he dislikes fun, I think he would be a terrible one.

[HoodedCrow]

True Dofs, he would not plan a fun wedding, but he probably did help organize a few surprises for the guests at the Red Wedding! He did strongly support the Sansa/Tyrion match for the two lovebirds and the Robert/Cersei match.(shudder) The marriage of Joff and Marg was lethal for his grandson.

He is also good at vengeance and humiliation, and picking Uber Violent retainers.

[Wall Flower]

22 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This is a book. Not real life. The words on the paper are intentional. No body ever mentions Rhaegars desire for more sons up to ADWD and the epilogue by Kevan Lannister. A man who's brother was Aerys's Hand and close to the court. And who desperately wanted his daughter to be Queen. 

If the author decides to drop information about Rhaegar wanting more sons suddenly and from this source I'd bet it is important info. 

So many people treat these characters as though they are real and this all really happened rather than understanding that authors only write what they want to convey. 

While Tywin may have had a grudge against Rhaegar (and certainly against Aerys), I think Oberyn is also right. The Princess of Dorne got the better of Tywin by marrying her 'feeble' daughter to Cersei's rightful husband and then Elia herself didn't even have the decency to die in childbirth to clear the way for Cersei. Ellen Reyne, Tytos' mistress, Elia Martell and Tysha. There is a definite escalation in how Tywin reacts to uppity women who don't know their place or get the better of him.

[Wall Flower]

10 hours ago, Dofs said:

Tywin is clearly a villain but not on the same scale as Gregor, Cersei, Ramsey and the likes. And while he is absolutely a piece of shit, many make him out to be far worse than he actually was, as if because he is a terrible man in some things, he must be terrible in literally everything. 

If Gregor is an unquestioned villain, what does that make the man who commands him, deploys him and protects him?

I don't buy that Tywin didn't have any idea what he had in Gregor when he hand-picked him for the job of murdering small royal children. At most, he may not have been aware of the full extent of Gregor's cruelty and depravity. Tywin was certainly aware after the sack and continued to employ Gregor's special talents to the bitter end. Even Ned in the North has heard rumours of dark deeds on Clegane land but Tywin protects him and doesn't give a shit about dead Lady Cleganes or disappearing small folk.

Dark deeds may happen on Bolton lands too, but Roose himself says that he was careful not to draw the eye or ear of Lord Stark or he would have faced justice from his liege lord (as Jorah Mormont did when he sold poachers into slavery).

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

snip

 

 

either yourself or that other guy said it was not about Pride.

I'm not discussing the OP with you I am discussing his motivating emotion and if you think his actions had nothing to do with his pride then you have failed to understand the character of Tywin completely. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

52 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

While Tywin may have had a grudge against Rhaegar (and certainly against Aerys), I think Oberyn is also right. The Princess of Dorne got the better of Tywin by marrying her 'feeble' daughter to Cersei's rightful husband and then Elia herself didn't even have the decency to die in childbirth to clear the way for Cersei. Ellen Reyne, Tytos' mistress, Elia Martell and Tysha. There is a definite escalation in how Tywin reacts to uppity women who don't know their place or get the better of him.

I think it is made very clear, especially with the information in the world book that Tywin and Aerys had a very volatile relationship with Joanna being at the centre of their rivalry. 

My suspicions about Rhaegar come simply from contemplating how Tywin would feel should he through his daughter be rejected again.   A conclusion I came to because of Kevan's words about Cersei and sons  but one which is not well supported; though given that this information came at the very end of the last book it seems GRRM wanted to give a hint at further complications surrounding the "abduction", a conclusion which finally explained for me why Tywin sent two complete monsters to do the deed.  Which he himself understands should have been achieved in a more gentle manner but which he chose to send a man like Lorch for and Gregor who whilst he was still young had a certain nature which can usually be seen from that age; indeed we know he had already committed at least one violent crime, and we do not know when he was married or when his first wife died. Either way Tywins choice was clear he wanted a dirty deed done and he wanted a message sent. 

Could it have simply been an act of misogyny?  Yes I believe so. He certainly does have an escalating tendency to sadistic acts committed against women. 

Or could it be wounded pride aimed at the Martel's because they achieved what he failed to do? Yes And again that would be pride as a motivator. 

If it was simply misogyny that too stems from Pride as a motivating emotion as these women have all stepped out of the role he deems suitable and have in some cases dared to interfere with his desires.  His ego takes a knock from each of these women. 

[Wall Flower]

4 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think it is made very clear, especially with the information in the world book that Tywin and Aerys had a very volatile relationship with Joanna being at the centre of their rivalry. 

My suspicions about Rhaegar come simply from contemplating how Tywin would feel should he through his daughter be rejected again.   A conclusion I came to because of Kevan's words about Cersei and sons  but one which is not well supported; though given that this information came at the very end of the last book it seems GRRM wanted to give a hint at further complications surrounding the "abduction", a conclusion which finally explained for me why Tywin sent two complete monsters to do the deed.  Which he himself understands should have been achieved in a more gentle manner but which he chose to send a man like Lorch for and Gregor who whilst he was still young had a certain nature which can usually be seen from that age; indeed we know he had already committed at least one violent crime, and we do not know when he was married or when his first wife died. Either way Tywins choice was clear he wanted a dirty deed done and he wanted a message sent. 

Could it have simply been an act of misogyny?  Yes I believe so. He certainly does have an escalating tendency to sadistic acts committed against women. 

Or could it be wounded pride aimed at the Martel's because they achieved what he failed to do? Yes And again that would be pride as a motivator. 

If it was simply misogyny that too stems from Pride as a motivating emotion as these women have all stepped out of the role he deems suitable and have in some cases dared to interfere with his desires.  His ego takes a knock from each of these women. 

I definitely agree with you that overweening pride is at play, certainly didn't mean to seem as if I was disputing that!