Was Tywin Lannister a villain?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Just now, Wall Flower said:

I definitely agree with you that overweening pride is at play, certainly didn't mean to seem as if I was disputing that!

Oh no you didn't. I was just emphasising that this is Tywins emotional weakness. Because I asserted that early on in the thread and got jumped on by fanboys.  Who didn't like to think that supposedly cool clever Tywin is actually acting largely due to his fragile ego. 

I can see that you are not saying that. 

 

[Lion of the West]

18 hours ago, The Wolves said:

How is he obviously not a villain? Almost every inhumane brutal act done in this series have been connected to Tywin. 

He has ordered some of the worst acts against women, men, and children nearly all innocent. I get that the character is interesting and complex but just because you can see his reasonings(though I can’t understand how anyone can justify anything Tywin does) doesn’t mean that he is not a villain or evil. 

 

To start with, most of the inhumane brutal acts are done entirely unconnected with Tywin. You put way to much faith in Tywin if you think that Tywin has that kind if influence across Westeros and Essos.

Secondly Tywin has done many horrible things and I don't call him a good man. But to me being evil requires a level of a malice that Tywin simply don't have as far as I can see when I read the books. And also that if one constructs someone as a villain or evil, well that's the first step to character assassination and utter reduction of the character to pariah status.

12 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Okay, hands up who would want Tywin as a Daddy? How about as a liege lord, or even a hand? A judge? A wedding planner?

I would have him as father, liege lord, Hand, judge or wedding planner.

[Dofs]

11 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

True Dofs, he would not plan a fun wedding, but he probably did help organize a few surprises for the guests at the Red Wedding!

I am pretty sure the books did tell us that Tywin did not take part in the actual planning and that it was a job of some Freys, Lothar Frey being one of them.

7 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

If Gregor is an unquestioned villain, what does that make the man who commands him, deploys him and protects him?

A horrible, horrible man and also a clear villain, as I have written in my original post. Still, there are many levels of evil and Gregor is, imo, much more evil than Tywin. Gregor is an unhinged monster who would kill and rape just because, while Tywin is someone who doesn't care about morals or what's right, or other people except for very few, in order to achieve his pragmatic goals. He is still a huge asshole but I believe some others make him out to be much worse than he actually is (which is still pretty damn bad).

For example, I don't believe that Tywin ordered to rape and kill Elia, for 3 reasons. Firstly, he understood the norms of the society and hence knew that the marriage wasn't Elia's choice. Secondly, he knew that Elia's murder would greatly complicate their relationship with Martells which was absolutely unnecessary. And finally, by that point he should had been happy that Cersei didn't marry Rhaegar, given how it all turned out. So holding a grudge against Elia given all that seems to be so illogical to me, it's almost cartoonish.  

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

 

I don't buy that Tywin didn't have any idea what he had in Gregor when he hand-picked him for the job of murdering small royal children.

That is not what is being claimed, he did not know how monstrous the teenager could be and given that up until that point Gregor had actually not done anything awful it is a fair assessment.  Gregor was just one of thousands of Lannister knights, his father was still in power so there was little reason to suspect that Tywin knew what he was capable of. 

6 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

 

At most, he may not have been aware of the full extent of Gregor's cruelty and depravity. Tywin was certainly aware after the sack and continued to employ Gregor's special talents to the bitter end.

Why would he not? He is one of the most feared knights in the realm.  The realm is constantly at war, Lords don't get rid of their most effective and loyal men unless they are a threat to themselves.

Kin Robert has no issue with Gregor, why should Tywin? 

6 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Even Ned in the North has heard rumours of dark deeds on Clegane land but Tywin protects him and doesn't give a shit about dead Lady Cleganes or disappearing small folk.

As would the king, you can't punish someone for rumours. We also know of the rumors that take place in the Bolton lands and Ned does squat about that. Rumors are just that.

6 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Dark deeds may happen on Bolton lands too, but Roose himself says that he was careful not to draw the eye or ear of Lord Stark or he would have faced justice from his liege lord (as Jorah Mormont did when he sold poachers into slavery).

Roose talks about rumours from the Umber lands as well, there is always going to be rumours. Jorah was discovered to be sellin his own people into slavery, an actual provable crime. 

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

either yourself or that other guy said it was not about Pride.

Yes and it clear that he did not do so out of pride, Tywin hedged his bets for the entire war, if pride and ego were what motivated him he would have entered the war much sooner, he would not have allowed the Targs a chance to win given that was always a strong possibility. 

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm not discussing the OP with you I am discussing his motivating emotion and if you think his actions had nothing to do with his pride

At no point have I claimed he is not prideful (everyone pretty much is in their world, it is not seen as a negative in their society like it is in ours) but you claimed that every awful thing he, or anyone else, has done is because of wounded pride which is clearly wrong

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

then you have failed to understand the character of Tywin completely. 

Or maybe we both do, neither of us get to make that claim, only the author can. 

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think it is made very clear, especially with the information in the world book that Tywin and Aerys had a very volatile relationship with Joanna being at the centre of their rivalry. 

Yet Tywin was able to make that relationship work despite Aerys and his cronies constantly undermining him. Not only that, when half of the realm goes to war to get rid of Aerys he remains neutral until there is a clear victor. 

Despite his pride being hurt by Aerys he was able to make the pragmatic approach, doing what was best in his House's long term interests rather than acting out of anger. 

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

My suspicions about Rhaegar come simply from contemplating how Tywin would feel should he through his daughter be rejected again. 

But that says more about you than it does Tywin. 

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

 A conclusion I came to because of Kevan's words about Cersei and sons  but one which is not well supported;

It is not supported at all. Kevan is looking at the mess Cersei has created for herself and thinking how different it could have been. At no point does Kevan blame Elia for the marriage, they live in a world were daughters have zero control over the matter. 

 

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

though given that this information came at the very end of the last book it seems GRRM wanted to give a hint at further complications surrounding the "abduction", a conclusion which finally explained for me why Tywin sent two complete monsters to do the deed. 

How many men do you think Tywin had who were not only willing to kill children, but royal children? 

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Which he himself understands should have been achieved in a more gentle manner but which he chose to send a man like Lorch for and Gregor who whilst he was still young had a certain nature which can usually be seen from that age; 

I have no idea what you are trying to convey here? 

The brutality shown to the royal children and their mother was not something that could be predicted, neither Lorch or Clegane had shown such savagery before. They'd done awful things before but what they did in the Red keep was a whole other level. 

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

and we do not know when he was married or when his first wife died.

well this is an improvement I guess, on the previous page you were treating it like a fact that he had killed his parents, sister and wife before this event. 

For all you know the 17 year old was not even married by this point, or if he was if she was still alive or even the manner of her death. You are coming to conclusions you want to match your agenda. 

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

Either way Tywins choice was clear he wanted a dirty deed done and he wanted a message sent. 

no message was sent, the history books show that it is not public knowledge and that few people knew about it. How is that a messa

 

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 7/19/2018 at 2:11 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

I was with you until you compared Hitler (and Tywin) to Trump.

It's a terrible, ignorant comparison. Trump has never endorsed the mass torture and murder of innocent people over some a silly political faux pas, a bruised ego or tinfoil racist exceptionalism. Trump also has yet to try and take over the world...unlike Hitler and Tywin with his continent-wide dynastic marriages and alliances (Tyrion to Winterfell, Cersei to Highgarden, Lancel to Darry, Genna to Riverrun, fArya to the Boltons, the Spicers to Castamere, etc.)

I'm not really a fan of his but let's keep it real: Trump is a saint compared to Tywin and Hitler.

And, dear Holy God, I'm really sick and tired of people comparing politicians and pundits that they don't like to Hitler. People did it with Bush and Cheney, people did it to Donald Rumsfeld, people did it with Obama, people did it with Hillary and now people are doing it to Trump … not realizing that what they are really doing is watering down Hitler.

And why does it seem like people think Hitler is the only mass-murdering psycho-tyrant to have befouled the earth. He's not even the worst. Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Zedong weren't exactly cupcakes...and that's only the 20th century we're talking about.

I didn't. Perhaps read more carefully. 

[BlackLightning]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:25 AM, Dofs said:

I am pretty sure the books did tell us that Tywin did not take part in the actual planning and that it was a job of some Freys, Lothar Frey being one of them.

A horrible, horrible man and also a clear villain, as I have written in my original post. Still, there are many levels of evil and Gregor is, imo, much more evil than Tywin. Gregor is an unhinged monster who would kill and rape just because, while Tywin is someone who doesn't care about morals or what's right, or other people except for very few, in order to achieve his pragmatic goals. He is still a huge asshole but I believe some others make him out to be much worse than he actually is (which is still pretty damn bad).

For example, I don't believe that Tywin ordered to rape and kill Elia, for 3 reasons. Firstly, he understood the norms of the society and hence knew that the marriage wasn't Elia's choice. Secondly, he knew that Elia's murder would greatly complicate their relationship with Martells which was absolutely unnecessary. And finally, by that point he should had been happy that Cersei didn't marry Rhaegar, given how it all turned out. So holding a grudge against Elia given all that seems to be so illogical to me, it's almost cartoonish.  

Almost as cartoonish as Tywin's irrational, illogical hatred of Tyrion in Storm.

If Tywin never ordered (or even condoned) the rape and murder of Elia Martell, then he should have handed over Gregor Clegane to the Martells. And that's not even to speak of her children, Rhaenys and Aegon. Did he explicitly order their deaths too? Or did he implicitly allow and condone it? Because it seems to me that Amory Lorch either chased Rhaenys around the castle or hunted her down where he would then stab her to death. Sounds like he was acting on orders.

Honestly, that whole thing makes Jaime look very, very bad. Because Jaime was just content to sit on the Iron Throne feeling pleasurably conflicted with himself while Elia and her children are being brutalized just down the hall. I know he must have heard them.

If he felt so strongly about Aerys, Jaime should've killed him and then went ahead to go see about Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon.

[Geddus]

On 7/20/2018 at 4:25 PM, Dofs said:

For example, I don't believe that Tywin ordered to rape and kill Elia, for 3 reasons.

I, on the contrary, find extremely hard to believe his claims that he forgot about her. It's Tywin Lannister we're talking about, he doesn't forget members of the royal family. At best he purposefully left her out because he was pretty sure Gregor would kill her anyway.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Almost as cartoonish as Tywin's irrational, illogical hatred of Tyrion in Storm.

First of all, he does not hate Tyrion throughout ASOS, it is just one chapter were he is incredibly pissed of with Tyrion over the fact that he had threatened the lives of his grandsons over the safety of a whore. 

"Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?"

Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her."

To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?"

 

There is nothing irrational or illogical about Tywin's anger in that chapter. It actually is one of the few incidents that proves he is human. I imagine most grandfathers would express similar anger when told of threats to their 12 and 7 year old grandsons.

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If Tywin never ordered (or even condoned) the rape and murder of Elia Martell, then he should have handed over Gregor Clegane to the Martells.

Why?

Neither the new King or new Hand gave a shit, why should Tywin sacrifice a loyal and deadly knight for no reason? 

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

 

And that's not even to speak of her children, Rhaenys and Aegon. Did he explicitly order their deaths too?

Yes, he explicitly ordered their deaths, just not the manner. 

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Or did he implicitly allow and condone it? Because it seems to me that Amory Lorch either chased Rhaenys around the castle

she was killed in her room, why does it seem to you that there was some kind of chase? She was only two/three years of age, there would be little need for chasing once they entered the nursery.

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

or hunted her down where he would then stab her to death. Sounds like he was acting on orders.

Yes, to kill them. 

 

It was Ser Amory who brought me the girl's body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her father's bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her...Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three? He said she'd kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow." His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."

The previous child Lorch was supposed to have killed was far less savage, not sure why Tywin would expect these deaths to be different.

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Honestly, that whole thing makes Jaime look very, very bad. Because Jaime was just content to sit on the Iron Throne feeling pleasurably conflicted with himself while Elia and her children are being brutalized just down the hall. I know he must have heard them.

i think you are both underestimating how big the red keep is and how much noise there would be in a city and castle under attack. 

 

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

I, on the contrary, find extremely hard to believe his claims that he forgot about her.

there were far more important things for Tywin to concentrate on

• Jaime's safety
• capturing Aerys
• disposing of the heirs
• securing the treasury
• capturing an entire city, including ports, gates and the thousands of loyalist soldiers in hours ( pretty much a miracle to do)

"Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

 

It's Tywin Lannister we're talking about, he doesn't forget members of the royal family. At best he purposefully left her out because he was pretty sure Gregor would kill her anyway.

Elia's husband was the one who knighted the 17 year old Gregor, there would be no reason to assume that Gregor would want her dead

[Geddus]

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Elia's husband was the one who knighted the 17 year old Gregor, there would be no reason to assume that Gregor would want her dead

I don't think gratitude is a big deal for ser Gregor. And there was more than enough reason to assume that Elia would have tried to protect her son.

Also, Tywin took the time to order his men to kill Rhaegar's children but completely forgot about the prince's wife? Yeah, sure. That's about as believable as his outrage at the idea that Tyrion, of all people, could think he ordered a woman to be raped.

[dmfn]

On 7/16/2018 at 2:23 AM, RagingThroner said:

the Beautiful of ASOIAF is the shades of grey all of the characters live in. They are all hero and villain and we love them for it. Except Ned. He was honorable and decent through and through. 

Ned is cool, but literally zero characters are anything through and through.

Ned's parenting brought about

1 a son brazen enough to challenge the Iron Throne and one of the best military leaders alive, Tywin.

2 a son who he let join the NW knowing it was not a jolly bunch of honorable dudes dedicating themselves to the good of the realm, and who is *possibly the rightfil heir to the kingdom

3 a daughter who lied to save face with the Lannisters again and again, and betrayed her own father to a near stranger (Cercei)

4 a daughter who pretty quickly became pretty comfortable with killing for sport/spite

5 a son who is probs gonna turn into a tree zombie spymaster (which is kinda cool)

6 and w/etf Rickon is supposed to be

And the bitter irony is this guy who *never lied died with a lie on his lips.

I love Ned, but he was too proud and honorable and foolish for his own good. 

[dmfn]

On 7/20/2018 at 3:02 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm not discussing the OP with you I am discussing his motivating emotion and if you think his actions had nothing to do with his pride then you have failed to understand the character of Tywin completely. 

Sounds like you're confusing 'pride' for 'prestige'.

I'd say nearly every atrocity Tywin committed was for the good of House Lannister, which is a huge family with sons and daughters that he indeed protected by establishing such a reputation. 

If you asked Japanese people in 1950 if Harry Truman was a villain...

[Angel Eyes]

On 7/15/2018 at 2:23 PM, RagingThroner said:

the Beautiful of ASOIAF is the shades of grey all of the characters live in. They are all hero and villain and we love them for it. Except Ned. He was honorable and decent through and through. 

All fifty of them?

I couldn’t resist.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 7/25/2018 at 10:34 AM, dmfn said:

Sounds like you're confusing 'pride' for 'prestige'.

I'd say nearly every atrocity Tywin committed was for the good of House Lannister, which is a huge family with sons and daughters that he indeed protected by establishing such a reputation. 

If you asked Japanese people in 1950 if Harry Truman was a villain...

Nope. I know exactly what I mean. 

Why do people want to attain prestige? Could it be because it makes them feel proud? Pride is the motivating factory in striving for prestige. 

It seems to me that lots of people have no capacity to dig beyond the surface of human emotion and behaviour to truly understand what motivates them.  

Tywin is a prideful man and GRRM sets up a nice little morality tale for him. Pride comes before a fall. The House sigil is a Lion a group of which are a Pride. GRRM makes it very clear what he is trying to convey with Tywin.  

 

ETA: I have no idea who Harry Trueman is or why he might have anything to do with 1950's Japan. Sorry we are not all Americans. 

[dmfn]

54 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Nope. I know exactly what I mean. 

Why do people want to attain prestige? Could it be because it makes them feel proud? Pride is the motivating factory in striving for prestige. 

It seems to me that lots of people have no capacity to dig beyond the surface of human emotion and behaviour to truly understand what motivates them.  

Tywin is a prideful man and GRRM sets up a nice little morality tale for him. Pride comes before a fall. The House sigil is a Lion a group of which are a Pride. GRRM makes it very clear what he is trying to convey with Tywin.  

 

ETA: I have no idea who Harry Trueman is or why he might have anything to do with 1950's Japan. Sorry we are not all Americans. 

And a group of ants is called an army. And who leads ants? A queen. And what is queen spelled backwards? Neeuq!

I think there's room for differences of opinion here. I'd say that before I said GGRM was making a point about morality. Probably reeealy wanted to add that 'shit gold' line.

And lastly, I was wrong to assume the only time in human history atomic weapons were used against an enemy made headlines outside of the country you assumed I'm from.

[Wall Flower]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Nope. I know exactly what I mean. 

Why do people want to attain prestige? Could it be because it makes them feel proud? Pride is the motivating factory in striving for prestige. 

It seems to me that lots of people have no capacity to dig beyond the surface of human emotion and behaviour to truly understand what motivates them.  

Tywin is a prideful man and GRRM sets up a nice little morality tale for him. Pride comes before a fall. The House sigil is a Lion a group of which are a Pride. GRRM makes it very clear what he is trying to convey with Tywin.  

 

ETA: I have no idea who Harry Trueman is or why he might have anything to do with 1950's Japan. Sorry we are not all Americans. 

Harry Truman was the US president who ordered the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to force the Japanese surrender at the end of WW11.

Not sure of the relevance to Tywin, though. Whatever the morality of his actions, I imagine Truman was trying to end a devastating world war and put an end to the loss of allied lives, rather than make up for the weakness of his father and revenge himself on vassal houses.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

15 minutes ago, dmfn said:

And a group of ants is called an army. And who leads ants? A queen. And what is queen spelled backwards? Neeuq!

I think there's room for differences of opinion here. I'd say that before I said GGRM was making a point about morality. Probably reeealy wanted to add that 'shit gold' line.

And lastly, I was wrong to assume the only time in human history atomic weapons were used against an enemy made headlines outside of the country you assumed I'm from.

I didn't assume you are American, I said We are not all American. I guessed the man in question was/is American the name is vaguely familiar.  It's not an automatic understanding when you give a name I don't know, a whole decade(not even the one it occurred in!) And a country. That what you  are referring to is bombing of Japan.  Not to mention that it's just not part of our curriculum to any extent. We learn about the second world war sure but the names of the Americans involved in the bombing of Japan never came up. What was he like the man who made it? The pilot who dropped it?  I wouldn't have a clue.  Maybe if I'd done world history? But I didn't I did social and economic, Ask me about the levellers or the horse drawn hoe or the match girl strikes, the Peterloo Massacre. I can tell you all about those.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

9 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Harry Truman was the US president who ordered the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to force the Japanese surrender at the end of WW11.

Not sure of the relevance to Tywin, though. Whatever the morality of his actions, I imagine Truman was trying to end a devastating world war and put an end to the loss of allied lives, rather than make up for the weakness of his father and revenge himself on vassal houses.

Thank you.

And yes I totally agree re Tywin.  

[dmfn]

24 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Harry Truman was the US president who ordered the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to force the Japanese surrender at the end of WW11.

Not sure of the relevance to Tywin, though. Whatever the morality of his actions, I imagine Truman was trying to end a devastating world war and put an end to the loss of allied lives, rather than make up for the weakness of his father and revenge himself on vassal houses.

I was implying that drastic measures, even horrible atrocity, can be said to be justified in war. I was saying Tywin was trying to win, (end a devastating war/save allied lives) and leave no opposition, hence the Truman reference. 

I was not being cryptic on purpose, and wasn't trying to take a huge leap into his psyche or the symbolism.

[Bernie Mac]

48 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

 

Not sure of the relevance to Tywin, though. Whatever the morality of his actions, I imagine Truman was trying to end a devastating world war and put an end to the loss of allied lives, rather than make up for the weakness of his father and revenge himself on vassal houses.

Japan, like the Reynes and Tarbecks, chose to go to war, no one made them do it. They had their own ambitions and felt America/House Lannister was weak and would back down.  America took the fight to an unprepared enemy, much like Tywin did. Both the Reynes and Tarbecks were given options to surrender, much like Hirohito was, he ignored this and carried on despite all but one of his war council voting for peace. Even when Japan's biggest ally, Germany, was defeated they opted to carry on mirroring the situation to with the Reynes and Tarbecks. Despite having all but lost the war Japan refused to quit, feeling america would not properly invade Japan due to its defenses(similar to the well defended Castamere). Trueman, rather than carry on the war and see more american soldiers killed he took the chance to quickly end the war with the atomic bomb, killing innocents in the process but keeping his own men safe,  Tywin does exactly the same, on a much smaller scale, with Castamere.

There are a lot of similarities between the two wars, we are even told Tywin "Neither did he intend to send men to die in the dark, fighting their way down" due to the well defended castle; Two armored knights, standing side by side, could hold the largest tunnel against a thousand, for attackers had no way around, and if they tried to cut their way past, defenders would be pouring boiling oil and pitch down on them from murder holes above as they fought.

 

Truman, like Tywin, chose to spare his own soldiers and win the war quickly rather than let it drag out years

 

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

Tywin is a prideful man and GRRM sets up a nice little morality tale for him. 

 

all the characters are, both protagonist and antagonist

[The Sunland Lord]

He is a villain because of the points in the OP and many more, but a greatly written character also. 

His main problem was his hidden spite (to say the least) towards people in general and its reflection when things needed to get settled. He always went over the top when dealing with stuff, and it eventually backfired when he was going to let his own son die in a sham of a trial (which he was enforcing).

In his defense, I'd say that often he had to clean after his children's mess (excluding Tyrion, who's lion's share of mental damage was caused by Tywin) or even his father. Also, he had to clean after the mad king, and he did a decent job until Jaime joined the Kingsguard so he resigned.   

We live in a world full of Tywins, btw. Ruthlessness, wits, and lack of conscience make a great deal of businessmen, politicians, and many other sorts of powerful people.