Was Tywin Lannister a villain?

[Bernie Mac]

34 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

. He always went over the top when dealing with stuff, and it eventually backfired when he was going to let his own son die in a sham of a trial (which he was enforcing).

 

Tyrion was the main suspect in the murder of the king, Tywin's grandson.  Kevan, who never had a problem with Tyrion, is convinced of his guilt, why would Tywin think any differently?  Even Tyrion can't think of who could have done it. 

Tyrion had both the most motive and the means to poison him, what was Tywin supposed to do, let the murder of the king slide? He even made it clear that he was appointed Mace and Oberyn as judges to keep it fair, if he really wanted it to be unfair there were many people who actually despised Tyrion that he could have called upon. 

[Angel Eyes]

So is it kinslaying to sentence your relatives to death?

[Iman]

No , of course not.

We hate him only because of that he is a Lannister or he has role in red wedding. But why should we hate someone who does his best for his family?! If somehow we loved Lannister would we again say this about him?! Well he is not our favorite character : he hated Tyrion, he had part in killing Robb and others , he ordered to butcher Elia and her children but he did all this not for his own for his whole family and dynasty. He never ever enjoyed the death of Robb or Elia , he controlled Joffery , he really never meant to kill Tyrion , he did everything for Jaime and ... . I didn't feel sad for his death but i will miss his strength , solidity and seriousness. Truly in the whole story that we have seen in books ( not in the past) there were no  other man as strong as him.

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion was the main suspect in the murder of the king, Tywin's grandson.  Kevan, who never had a problem with Tyrion, is convinced of his guilt, why would Tywin think any differently?  Even Tyrion can't think of who could have done it. 

Tyrion had both the most motive and the means to poison him, what was Tywin supposed to do, let the murder of the king slide? He even made it clear that he was appointed Mace and Oberyn as judges to keep it fair, if he really wanted it to be unfair there were many people who actually despised Tyrion that he could have called upon. 

Motive means, and a history of making public threats against the king and beating the boy. Quite honestly, the whole "you're persecuting me because I'm a dwarf" spill rings a little hollow to me, Tyrion seems to not accept he has done anything to land himself in his situation.

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, dmfn said:

I was implying that drastic measures, even horrible atrocity, can be said to be justified in war. I was saying Tywin was trying to win, (end a devastating war/save allied lives) and leave no opposition, hence the Truman reference. 

I was not being cryptic on purpose, and wasn't trying to take a huge leap into his psyche or the symbolism.

There is a difference between deciding you have to do an unspeakable vile act to save thousands, and then deciding to lock up and drown several innocent men, women, and children because they defied you.

There is a difference between having to make a hard choice, and ordering your subordinates to rape a child, just to teach your unruly son a lesson. 

[dmfn]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

There is a difference between deciding you have to do an unspeakable vile act to save thousands, and then deciding to lock up and drown several innocent men, women, and children because they defied you.

There is a difference between having to make a hard choice, and ordering your subordinates to rape a child, just to teach your unruly son a lesson. 

You're absolutely right about Tysha. No excuse for that. 14 is a child in our world, but wasn't in theirs, though. So that's an exaggeration of the crime.

We're not sitting here talking about Ygritte raping a child when she slept with Jon, nor Drogo raping Dany. Our laws would say they were too young to consent to sex.

And the Tarbecks and Castameres had kidnapped Lannister family members, refused to pay back loans, and raised arms in open revolt. Whoever was hiding out in Castamere after that was, at least, guilty of rebellion.

I'm totally fine with people considering Tywin a villian, but just stick to the facts. There's enough there to make him look bad without having to spin it.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Snip.

You seem to think I don't understand the story. You are wrong. I'm not arguing what you think I am arguing. I have been talking about the emotions which motivate Tywins actions.  Tywin is a villain, that doesn't mean everything he does is pure evil, that isn't how the books work. Very few characters are purely evil. In fact even some of those who seem it can be looked at and examined and you can see why they behave as they do.  But the crux of this discussion has not been about if Tywin was a villain but rather what motives his actions.  And it has been like hitting my head against a brick wall! 

 

[Lion of the West]

10 hours ago, dmfn said:

I'm totally fine with people considering Tywin a villian, but just stick to the facts. There's enough there to make him look bad without having to spin it.

 

Well said. They would still be wrong to consider Tywin a villain but people should stick to the facts and preferably not try to paint everyone who ever opposed him as some glowing heroes and innocent victims.

But at least I'm glad that they don't speak of Aerys' valianet effort to preserve the peace in the face of Tywin or his wicked designs against the Blackfyres, who he did fight personally.

[Dofs]

On 7/24/2018 at 4:05 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Almost as cartoonish as Tywin's irrational, illogical hatred of Tyrion in Storm.

Tyrion was one of the few in Storm with whom Tywin shared his plans and opinions and whos opinion regarding politics Tywin respected. Hence you are likely greatly overestimating Tywin's hatred of Tyrion and are buying Tyrion's perception of what Tywin thought of him at face value. Not everything that Tyrion perceived as a slight from his father was actually a slight, for example taking away from him the position of the Hand.

On 7/24/2018 at 4:05 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

If Tywin never ordered (or even condoned) the rape and murder of Elia Martell, then he should have handed over Gregor Clegane to the Martells.

As I wrote in my post earlier, Tywin doesn't care about stuff like morals. Pragmatically, Tywin saw Gregor as useful tool so he decided to keep it. What's done is done regarding Elia.

 

On 7/24/2018 at 4:05 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

And that's not even to speak of her children, Rhaenys and Aegon. Did he explicitly order their deaths too? Or did he implicitly allow and condone it? Because it seems to me that Amory Lorch either chased Rhaenys around the castle or hunted her down where he would then stab her to death. Sounds like he was acting on orders.

Tywin flat out tells to Tyrion that he did indeed order the deaths of the children. He also tells to Tyrion that he didn't order to kill Elia and simply forgot to mention her. That's what the whole argument is about - did he forget about her or not? I tend to believe that he did because there is no reason for him to wish specifically Elia's death. Oberyn's explanation doesn't sound realistic to me.

On 7/24/2018 at 4:05 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Honestly, that whole thing makes Jaime look very, very bad. Because Jaime was just content to sit on the Iron Throne feeling pleasurably conflicted with himself while Elia and her children are being brutalized just down the hall. I know he must have heard them.

No, he couldn't have heard them. Jaime and Elia with children were in completely different buildings.

[King Ned Stark]

There is a reason why sexual violence and child abuse are near taboo subjects within cinema and literature, and storylines that involve that kind of depravity tend to be very intense, because the cruelty is inexcusable.  

I consider Tywin not to be just a villain, but possibly the main villain of the first act.  The fact that he orders sexual violence, abuse, and the murder of children is a clear indication, to me, that Tywin is evil and a villain.

I see a dichotomy between Ned and Tywin, and there’s a reason why Ned refused to hurt kids and Tywin was perfectly willing to engage is such atrocities.

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

There is a reason why sexual violence and child abuse are near taboo subjects within cinema and literature, and storylines that involve that kind of depravity tend to be very intense, because the cruelty is inexcusable.  

I can see why child abuse is taboo.

But sexual violence? No, that's always struck me as bizarre. Murder is probably the worse thing ever (permanently removing someone from this plane of existence by force for no real reason) but yet it is almost impossible to escape in cinema and literature that targets adult.

Why is cold-blooded murder (the most famous and the worst version of murder) so ubiquitous but sexual violence is shushed away into the shadows to make room for arson, terrorism, torture, robbery, kidnapping, extortion, beatings, slavery/human trafficking, etc.

Will someone please explain that to me?

Also, child abuse taboo thing is funny to me. Most people (adults and teens) can't stand children and many more couldn't care less because "it's not mine"

...but everyone is collectively horrified when something bad happens to a child -- especially to girls. Incongruity in social mores and attitudes make my head hurt.

3 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

I consider Tywin not to be just a villain, but possibly the main villain of the first act.  The fact that he orders sexual violence, abuse, and the murder of children is a clear indication, to me, that Tywin is evil and a villain.

I see a dichotomy between Ned and Tywin, and there’s a reason why Ned refused to hurt kids and Tywin was perfectly willing to engage is such atrocities.

Tywin is probably as close as an anti-villain can get to pure villainy without actually becoming a full-on villain. But I understand you completely; Tywin does really blur that line.

Yep, Tywin is the probably the main villain of the first act with Lysa Arryn and Littlefinger coming in second and third.

There is a huge dichotomy between Ned and I believe that it was done 100% on purpose. Ned's legacy is so strong and so beloved he might as well still be alive and well somewhere. Tywin's legacy - which he was so obsessed about maintaining - alternates between smelling so horribly that most of the people who bothered to show up for his funeral couldn't attend and being destroyed by his children.

[dmfn]

@Jabar of House Titan

like in Erik the Viking, he stabs through the rapist into the Helga's stomach, and she says "Thanks for saving me from a fate worse than death."

[BlackLightning]

Just now, dmfn said:

@Jabar of House Titan

like in Erik the Viking, he stabs through the rapist into the Helga's stomach, and she says "Thanks for saving me from a fate worse than death."

"Stabs through the rapist into the Helga's stomach?" Huh?

I'm sure the family members of someone who has been murdered would beg to differ.

I don't know I just find it very, very weird that rape and sexual assault is more horrific - too horrific for cinema and literature - than people being decapitated, poisoned, chased and cut down by chainsaw-wielding maniacs and having their eyes ripped out of their skull.

Maybe it's because Western culture places a weird love-to-hate/hate-to-love taboo on anything sexual. This wasn't the case in places I've been to in Africa and Asia.

[dmfn]

4 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

"Stabs through the rapist into the Helga's stomach?" Huh?

I'm sure the family members of someone who has been murdered would beg to differ.

I don't know I just find it very, very weird that rape and sexual assault is more horrific - too horrific for cinema and literature - than people being decapitated, poisoned, chased and cut down by chainsaw-wielding maniacs and having their eyes ripped out of their skull.

Maybe it's because Western culture places a weird love-to-hate/hate-to-love taboo on anything sexual. This wasn't the case in places I've been to in Africa and Asia.

It's from a movie. N/m

 

[Bernie Mac]

13 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Tywin's legacy - which he was so obsessed about maintaining - alternates between smelling so horribly that most of the people who bothered to show up for his funeral couldn't attend and being destroyed by his children.

William I left a rotting corpse, it famously stunk.

"the swollen bowels burst, and an intolerable stench assailed the nostrils of the by-standers and the whole crowd." Even the frankincense and spices of the censers was not enough to mask the smell, and the rites were hurriedly concluded.

and of course his children and grandchildren were no picnic either, Robert Curthose rebelled against his father and later his brother, like Tyrion he mortgaged his lands to fund a war. William Rufus, according to contemporary reports was addicted to every vice there was, was never married (very likely gay) and was soon killed, likely by his younger brother.  One grandchild died young the other was Matilda who helped cause the biggest civil war the realm had ever seen at that point.

Despite the smell of his rotting corpse and his children and grandchildren's failings William's legacy was not undone, I doubt Tywin's will either. 

[BlackLightning]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

William I left a rotting corpse, it famously stunk.

"the swollen bowels burst, and an intolerable stench assailed the nostrils of the by-standers and the whole crowd." Even the frankincense and spices of the censers was not enough to mask the smell, and the rites were hurriedly concluded.

and of course his children and grandchildren were no picnic either, Robert Curthose rebelled against his father and later his brother, like Tyrion he mortgaged his lands to fund a war. William Rufus, according to contemporary reports was addicted to every vice there was, was never married (very likely gay) and was soon killed, likely by his younger brother.  One grandchild died young the other was Matilda who helped cause the biggest civil war the realm had ever seen at that point.

Despite the smell of his rotting corpse and his children and grandchildren's failings William's legacy was not undone, I doubt Tywin's will either. 

3

What's there to doubt?

Jaime is going to be eating right out of UnCatelyn's hands; by that I mean, he's going to help her orchestrate another Red Wedding. Except this time, it will be for House Lannister. Although a little bird has already assured us that Lady Stoneheart is going to survive Winds, I'd be shocked if Brienne AND Jaime both make it out of Lady Stoneheart's clutches and into Dream. It's just hard to imagine UnCat letting both of them off the hook...

Cersei is going to tear the Lannister-Tyrell alliance apart with her bare hands. And then she's going to end Lannister rule of the Seven Kingdoms almost single-handedly because she's a lunatic. And on top of that, she's probably going to be (partially) responsible for the death of Tommen and/or Myrcella. She might even kill off the main branch of the Tyrell family while she's at it. With Aegon on the rise, the Vale rallying behind Sansa, the Boltons on thin ice and the Freys on the verge of imploding, that would leave House Lannister (or what's left of them) completely alone and friendless

And Tyrion- remember he's Tywin writ small - is going to come back to Westeros with fire and blood to exact revenge on everyone who ever laughed at him or wronged him. He's going to do everything he possibly can to take Casterly Rock...if that means pitting Daenerys and Aegon against each other, then I guess that's that. And he already has plans for Cersei.

Need I also remind you that Tywin actually hoped the issues at the Wall would worsen, allowed the Ironborn problem to fester, scoffed at rumors about Daenerys and completely overreacted/overreached when it came to the Starks and the Tullys. Oh, and then there's the whole Dorne mess that he himself made and refused to clean up.

And guess what's about to happen. Daenerys is going to "break the wheel" on one continent and set the other one on fire, the Stark-Tully kingdom is making the comeback of the millennium (thanks to the Arryns), the Ironborn have gotten completely out of control, Dorne is playing for keeps and the fall of the Wall is going to unleash unmentionable horrors on the continent if not the world.

So, what's there to doubt?

----

As a side-note: I heartily disagree with you in regards to Matilda. She didn't help cause the Anarchy. That's like claiming that someone who got robbed at gunpoint helped caused the media frenzy and the public outrage that was a response to the robbery. No, the media frenzy/public outrage is a natural consequence of the crime committed. The right to the throne belonged to Matilda and the law was on her side. The blame largely lies fall at the feet of her cousin Stephen.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

William I left a rotting corpse, it famously stunk.

"the swollen bowels burst, and an intolerable stench assailed the nostrils of the by-standers and the whole crowd." Even the frankincense and spices of the censers was not enough to mask the smell, and the rites were hurriedly concluded.

and of course his children and grandchildren were no picnic either, Robert Curthose rebelled against his father and later his brother, like Tyrion he mortgaged his lands to fund a war. William Rufus, according to contemporary reports was addicted to every vice there was, was never married (very likely gay) and was soon killed, likely by his younger brother.  One grandchild died young the other was Matilda who helped cause the biggest civil war the realm had ever seen at that point.

Despite the smell of his rotting corpse and his children and grandchildren's failings William's legacy was not undone, I doubt Tywin's will either. 

Except, this is not the story that Martin himself says he uses as inspiration for the death and rotting corpse of Tywin. Tywin left a legacy like his body, corrupt and putrid enough to make those around him sick, effectively exposing truths. There will be no more “miracles” from Tywin (poor poor Pycelle wept over this fact). It is no literary accident that Cersei is the new Tywin, and she is just as corrupt. 

[King Ned Stark]

Even Jaime knew, per his conversation with the Blackfish in AFFC:

Quote

“This defiance serves no purpose, Ser.  The war is over, and your Young Wolf is dead.”

”Murdered in breach of all the sacred laws of hospitality.”

”Frey’s work, not mine.”

”Call it what you will, it stinks of Tywin Lannister.”

Jaime could not deny that.  “My father is dead as well.”

”May the Father judge him justly.”

Now there’s an awful prospect.

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

On 8/13/2018 at 4:56 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Except, this is not the story that Martin himself says he uses as inspiration for the death and rotting corpse of Tywin. Tywin left a legacy like his body, corrupt and putrid enough to make those around him sick, effectively exposing truths. There will be no more “miracles” from Tywin (poor poor Pycelle wept over this fact). It is no literary accident that Cersei is the new Tywin, and she is just as corrupt. 

Tywin lived for almost 60 years, he was the youngest ever Hand, one of the longest serving Hands (20 years of peace and prosperity), and served a second time winning the war of the five kings. His daughter a Queen, two grandsons Kings. His legacy is more than secure even if his offspring lose the crown. 

Historically a person's legacy was evaluated on their achievements in life. Elizabeth has one of the greatest legacies of any monarch, not having any children did not change that. Alexander the Great's son was murdered  by one of his father's generals, Cassander, and the empire he built up fragmented yet Alexander's legacy is just as strong 2,300 years after his death. Caesar's son was murdered by a second cousin, while Julius himself was brutally murdered himself, one of them being something of an adopted son to him, it did not dampen his legacy. 

 

Tywin's legacy will be fine. 

[Eltharion21]

Objectively Tywin is a villain . People that defend him act like they observe his actions from vacuum of morals, conventions and proof that reader has. It is fine that average Westerlander or citizen of King's Landing to believe various propaganda about glorious Lannisters ,but seeing proof from various viewpoints of events and comparison to other leaders make it clear.

He may have had success by ruthless style of leadership , but it is big question how long his "legacy" will endure, because "North Remembers" and "The scouring fire will come", also "Fire and blood".