Was Tywin Lannister a villain?

[hodorisfaclessman]

17 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

In no way shape or form is Tysha’s rape necessary or understandable. That’s fucked up shit even for a medieval setting. He made some Tarbeck women join the silent sisters. You’re telling me he couldn’t do the same to an orphaned girl after an illegal, anullable wedding?

 

True bit im wondering if thats some displaced rage at his fathers new wife ..ie any common woman trying to marry into the lannisters 

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

True bit im wondering if thats some displaced rage at his fathers new wife ..ie any common woman trying to marry into the lannisters 

Quite possibly. He might have legitimately thought she was marrying Tyrion for the money.

[hodorisfaclessman]

22 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Quite possibly. He might have legitimately thought she was marrying Tyrion for the money.

Yep plus he prob felt he was legit teaching the boy a lesson , a boy who until then we know was a smartass drinker and a bit of a soft hearted aimless  if well read dreamer ..a liability to the family name even if not a dwarf

[Bernie Mac]

16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion>Tywin

Not in terms of legacy, Tyrion's 27, at the same age Tywin had been ruling the realm for almost a decade, had won the Reyne/Tarbeck war,  had performed well in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. 

Tyrion is nowhere near having his father's legacy and the kingslaying and kinslaying are marks against him. Now it is possible that Tyrion can go on and do better, but so far he's trailing.

16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

King went mad, lost his crown.

yup, a year after Tywin quit the king lost his crowned. 20 years of peace and prosperity with

16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He wont be expunged from history, historians, maesters and other such would know his name. But his kids will be household

lol in a thousand years time? no, they won't. Cersie may well be but neither Tywin, Tyrion or Jaime will be.  

 

20 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

In no way shape or form is Tysha’s rape necessary or understandable. That’s fucked up shit even for a medieval setting.

I agree, but it is the world GRRM thinks it is. 

GRRM: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

GRRM: I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class.

 

Tywin does not look at Tysha as an equal, the nobility in general do not view them that way, even Ned is relieved when Clegane reveals the deadbody of the butcherboy rather than Arya's pet.  To Tywin she is probably viewed by him as intelligent livestock and the lesson he is trying to teach Tyrion is anyone can have her she is (practically) worthless. 

It is a monstrous act, but a large part of it is their society does not see a lot of worth in the peasants. Tywin is likely an elitist even in thier elitist society, but I doubt she was the only peasant raped and abused by the nobility that week. 

 

20 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

He made some Tarbeck women join the silent sisters. You’re telling me he couldn’t do the same to an orphaned girl after an illegal, anullable wedding?

Tywin was punishing House Tarbeck when he did that, I don't believe he was punishing Tysha,  she was  a lesson to Tyrion (not even a punishment) of just how insignificant the smallfolk are to them, Lannister's don't marry the smallfolk.

 

 

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not in terms of legacy, Tyrion's 27, at the same age Tywin had been ruling the realm for almost a decade, had won the Reyne/Tarbeck war,  had performed well in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. 

Tyrion is nowhere near having his father's legacy and the kingslaying and kinslaying are marks against him. Now it is possible that Tyrion can go on and do better, but so far he's trailing.

yup, a year after Tywin quit the king lost his crowned. 20 years of peace and prosperity with

lol in a thousand years time? no, they won't. Cersie may well be but neither Tywin, Tyrion or Jaime will be.  

 

I agree, but it is the world GRRM thinks it is. 

GRRM: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

GRRM: I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class.

 

Tywin does not look at Tysha as an equal, the nobility in general do not view them that way, even Ned is relieved when Clegane reveals the deadbody of the butcherboy rather than Arya's pet.  To Tywin she is probably viewed by him as intelligent livestock and the lesson he is trying to teach Tyrion is anyone can have her she is (practically) worthless. 

It is a monstrous act, but a large part of it is their society does not see a lot of worth in the peasants. Tywin is likely an elitist even in thier elitist society, but I doubt she was the only peasant raped and abused by the nobility that week. 

 

Tywin was punishing House Tarbeck when he did that, I don't believe he was punishing Tysha,  she was  a lesson to Tyrion (not even a punishment) of just how insignificant the smallfolk are to them, Lannister's don't marry the smallfolk.

 

 

Tywin hasn’t really given Tyrion a chance because once Tyrion starts to get results, Tywin takes the job away. And being a dwarf doesn’t help matters.

[Bernie Mac]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

Tywin hasn’t really given Tyrion a chance

No, you've got that completely backwards, Tywin, due to nepotism, was the only person willing to give Tyrion a chance. Robert was never going to make a dwarf a member of his council and Joffrey/Cersei were forced with him as Hand. 

 Another part was remembering the battle upriver, and wondering if he was being sent to hold the left again. "Why me?" he asked, cocking his head to one side. "Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a … bigger man?"

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."

 

 

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

because once Tyrion starts to get results, Tywin takes the job away. 

lol what did you expect to happen? Tywin is back in the capital, there is no need for a (vice) Hand, furthermore Tyrion is in a coma, do you expect the government to come to a standstill while he recuperates?

Tyrion's position no longer existed once Tywin was back, he did the next best thing and appointed him to the small council.

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

And being a dwarf doesn’t help matters.

Nor does choosing to live a playboy lifestyle, whoring and drinking around the realm. 

Some family members chose to serve their families, the teenage Tywin and Kevan come to mind, Tyrion chose not to. 

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Nor does choosing to live a playboy lifestyle, whoring and drinking around the realm. 

Some family members chose to serve their families, the teenage Tywin and Kevan come to mind, Tyrion chose not to. 

Would you want to serve a father who made you rape your wife? Tyrion didn’t really start with that lifestyle until after Tywin made him rape Tysha.

[Bernie Mac]

2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Would you want to serve a father who made you rape your wife?

It is not about serving a father but the House. 

He did not even need to serve House Lannister, he could have tried other vocations. He was more than happy living it up as a playboy. 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Yep plus he prob felt he was legit teaching the boy a lesson , a boy who until then we know was a smartass drinker and a bit of a soft hearted aimless  if well read dreamer ..a liability to the family name even if not a dwarf

Agreed and if he did that makes him so much more the monster

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I agree, but it is the world GRRM thinks it is. 

GRRM: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

GRRM: I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class.

I'm struggling to come up with an example close to Tysha other than something Ramsay or the Mountain has done. Roose and a few of the Targs (ie Aerion or Aerys IV) are close but I cannot come up with much. Varamyr for sure was in the same vein. So while I get his characterization of the times, that so few occurrences actually happen outside of legitimate, no questions asked villains (or at least universally loathed characters). 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin does not look at Tysha as an equal, the nobility in general do not view them that way, even Ned is relieved when Clegane reveals the deadbody of the butcherboy rather than Arya's pet.  To Tywin she is probably viewed by him as intelligent livestock and the lesson he is trying to teach Tyrion is anyone can have her she is (practically) worthless. 

It is a monstrous act, but a large part of it is their society does not see a lot of worth in the peasants. Tywin is likely an elitist even in thier elitist society, but I doubt she was the only peasant raped and abused by the nobility that week. 

Tywin was punishing House Tarbeck when he did that, I don't believe he was punishing Tysha,  she was  a lesson to Tyrion (not even a punishment) of just how insignificant the smallfolk are to them, Lannister's don't marry the smallfolk.

Tysha isn't a social equal. No one is debating that. Doesn't mean Tywin needs to act below his station, which I doubt many in-world characters would look at and say "Makes sense." Honestly even a beating or a naked walk + whatever was needed to annul the marriage wouldn't have remarked a comment. Having an underage girl raped 100 times to "prove" she was a whore to your son? Yeah Tywin has everything to be blamed about. If a sufficiently neutral king (lords knows not Robert) had heard about it, land loss would have been a prominent question, maybe more. 

[Bernie Mac]

23 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

Tysha isn't a social equal. No one is debating that. Doesn't mean Tywin needs to act below his station, which I doubt many in-world characters would look at and say "Makes sense." Honestly even a beating or a naked walk + whatever was needed to annul the marriage wouldn't have remarked a comment.

But you are missing the point,  a beating or walk of shame would be punishing Tysha, he is not doing that, she is insignificant to House Lannister, all she is is a lesson to his immature son. 

Think of Tommen's whipping boy Pate, a peasant who is whipped when Tommen makes a mistake, the lower classes are simply thought of as being less than. 

23 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

Having an underage girl raped 100 times to "prove" she was a whore to your son?

What Tywin did was reprehensible, but lets not get carried away, the hundred number is clearly an exaggeration. 

He had been thinking of those guardsmen during his flight, trying to recall how many there had been. You would think he might remember that, but no. A dozen? A score? A hundred? He could not say. 

23 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

 

Yeah Tywin has everything to be blamed about. If a sufficiently neutral king (lords knows not Robert) had heard about it, land loss would have been a prominent question, maybe more. 

I very much doubt it, not once she accepted the money. It would be her word versus that of a great Lord.

[The Sunland Lord]

Speaking of Tywin, isn't it odd that he didn't bother too much with Greyjoys after they burned his fleet?

Instead he let the Crown handle the matter, which part I get, but one would think he would get more personally about it and demand Balon's head, for example.

Probably plot convenience though, the Greyjoy brothers are important to stay alive at the time being.

[Bernie Mac]

7 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Speaking of Tywin, isn't it odd that he didn't bother too much with Greyjoys after they burned his fleet?

It is hardly the worst and the fleet has since been rebuilt. We know that Aeron was a prisoner for some time in the Westerlands.

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Instead he let the Crown handle the matter,

No Tywin was involved in the matter. 

With Balon's "moat" now undefended, King Robert had no difficulty bringing his host across Ironman's Bay from Seagard and Lannisport. With his Wardens of the West and North beside him, Robert forced landings on Pyke, Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, and cut his way across the isles with steel and fire. 

 

Quote

 

which part I get, but one would think he would get more personally about it and demand Balon's head, for example.

For burning his fleet? Seems excessive.

 

[Lion of the West]

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Speaking of Tywin, isn't it odd that he didn't bother too much with Greyjoys after they burned his fleet?

Instead he let the Crown handle the matter, which part I get, but one would think he would get more personally about it and demand Balon's head, for example.

Probably plot convenience though, the Greyjoy brothers are important to stay alive at the time being.

Since Tywin was with Robert its not odd at all that Tywin takes part in the Greyjoy Rebellion. Tywin is the Warden of the West and the West is under attack from rebels.

[The Sunland Lord]

7 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Since Tywin was with Robert its not odd at all that Tywin takes part in the Greyjoy Rebellion. Tywin is the Warden of the West and the West is under attack from rebels.

Agree but that's not what I meant.

I find it odd that Tywin wasn't too much eager to revenge against the Greyjoy brothers and make an example of them.

Instead he was pleased with Balon just bending the knee after the crown and its vassals won.

[HoodedCrow]

I can imagine that the series is written from a staring point, then with the final outcome envisioned and then with the backstory filled in to dedevelop character and provide motivations. 

More than enough is shown of Tywin’s deviousness, callousness, greed, ruthlessness, and brutality. The complexity is delivered by showing that his “managerial” skills are mostly successful during turmoil, promoting his house, or to shut down dissent. He displays clever Macheivellian techniques without heart. So if you are a fan of brutal, but pragmatic authority, then he’s your guy. If you value family relationships, then he is a disaster, except that he did try to protect Genna, although it might not have been for heart reasons. (Perhaps status reasons) His relationship with Johanna is really unknown on her part. Perhaps the lady didn’t like him as much as he would have liked.

The Greyjoy survival might have been because they were needed in the series down the road, or maybe even because Martin was really keen on showing us a Viking style culture, a tortured Viking/Nedified conflict character in Theon that could reflect the real world change in Scandinavian culture, or possibly to provide Dany with a fleet for invasion. Only the author knows for sure!

Other people have pointed out that Martin shows what his judgment of Tywins character is by his death details, and the chaos in his children’s personal lives. And he does it all stone cold sober.

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Agree but that's not what I meant.

I find it odd that Tywin wasn't too much eager to revenge against the Greyjoy brothers and make an example of them.

They were soundly beaten, an example had been made out of them, their Islands conquered, plundered and damaged, one of Balon's brothers imprisoned in the West, two of his sons dead and another held hostage.

 

Quote

Instead he was pleased with Balon just bending the knee after the crown and its vassals won.

Sure, why would he not be. 

" Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you."

 

 

[Lion of the West]

2 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Agree but that's not what I meant.

I find it odd that Tywin wasn't too much eager to revenge against the Greyjoy brothers and make an example of them.

Instead he was pleased with Balon just bending the knee after the crown and its vassals won.

We have no idea what was said or not in the war councils during the Greyjoy Rebellion, only what course was ultimately taken. So we don't know what Tywin said or didn't say. But we do know that Tywin don't undertaken extermination of families lightely. Even the Tarbecks and Reynes were given options to surrender, which they refused, before they were put down. And even then the Tarbeck women had their lives spared, save for the mastermind herself, that is.

[The Sunland Lord]

11 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

We have no idea what was said or not in the war councils during the Greyjoy Rebellion, only what course was ultimately taken. So we don't know what Tywin said or didn't say. But we do know that Tywin don't undertaken extermination of families lightely. Even the Tarbecks and Reynes were given options to surrender, which they refused, before they were put down. And even then the Tarbeck women had their lives spared, save for the mastermind herself, that is.

Well maybe Tywin wanted harsher punishment for the Greyjoy brothers but Ned or someone else opposed the idea and Robert listened to his counsel. 

Like when Roose proposed to Robert that Barristan should be executed after the Trident battle but Ned's advice to spare Selmy prevailed. Or was it Robert who decided himself? However.

Of course just speculating here. 

[Bernie Mac]

11 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Well maybe Tywin wanted harsher punishment for the Greyjoy brothers but Ned or someone else opposed the idea and Robert listened to his counsel. 

Like when Roose proposed to Robert that Barristan should be executed after the Trident battle but Ned's advice to spare Selmy prevailed. Or was it Robert who decided himself? However.

Of course just speculating here. 

it was Robert, not Ned. 

"On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, 'I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds."

But given Tywin has been pretty clear of forgiving people who bend the knee him asking for further sanctions on the Greyjoys make little sense.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

But you are missing the point,  a beating or walk of shame would be punishing Tysha, he is not doing that, she is insignificant to House Lannister, all she is is a lesson to his immature son. 

Think of Tommen's whipping boy Pate, a peasant who is whipped when Tommen makes a mistake, the lower classes are simply thought of as being less than. 

What Tywin did was reprehensible, but lets not get carried away, the hundred number is clearly an exaggeration. 

He had been thinking of those guardsmen during his flight, trying to recall how many there had been. You would think he might remember that, but no. A dozen? A score? A hundred? He could not say. 

I very much doubt it, not once she accepted the money. It would be her word versus that of a great Lord.

1) I'm not missing it, just not focusing on it

2) You want to quibble about the number of rapes? 

3) Accepted the money? Are you joking?

As to the consequences, they are unlikely but it's not something that wouldn't be talked about. Roose didn't want WF coming down on him for first night, and Ramsay's behavior brought a similar rebuke for the possibility of it bringing repercussions later. If first night is a concern for Roose, then gang raping a peasant to get back at your son is gonna make some news.