Who would win a war between Tywin and prime Robert Baratheon?

[Stormking902]

For this scenario lets say Aerys reached out to Tywin and apologises and offers a match between Cersie and Rhegar Targaryan, Aerys explains he has the high septon in his pocket and guarentees the princes mariage to the princess of Dorne would be anulled. 

Gaining the might of the Westerlands is a huge upgrade so lets say all Riverlands, Vale, and Stormlords stay loyal to there liege lord and Dorne with draws there troops at once since Rhegar wouldnt allow his children to be harmed obviously so his children are bad hostages. 

 

Who would win the newly constructed Roberts rebellion?. 

[Bernie Mac]

All things being equal then Robert is the likely winner, he is the most skilled military ruler we have seen in the series. 

 

Had Tywin joined Aerys at some point during Robert's Rebellion then Tywin would have won, the geopolitical of the situation would have meant that Riverland support would have been virtually nil for Roberrt given the position of the Westerlands and the numbers and respources of the Reach and Westerlands would have proved too much for the rebels

[Angel Eyes]

35 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

For this scenario lets say Aerys reached out to Tywin and apologises and offers a match between Cersie and Rhegar Targaryan, Aerys explains he has the high septon in his pocket and guarentees the princes mariage to the princess of Dorne would be anulled. 

Gaining the might of the Westerlands is a huge upgrade so lets say all Riverlands, Vale, and Stormlords stay loyal to there liege lord and Dorne with draws there troops at once since Rhegar wouldnt allow his children to be harmed obviously so his children are bad hostages. 

 

Who would win the newly constructed Roberts rebellion?. 

So which way does the North go? They’re conspicuously absent.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Hard to say but the battle of the bells sorta hints tywins brand of utter ruthlessness  means if robert is in a situation like that again hes dead.

Now add in that the lannisters always had a backdoor channel to the freys (poor rob) because of tywins sister,this time they may outright betray their leige lord instead of just pretending to be tardy.

Overall the huge thing is that the westerlands brings far more troop power to the  war than dorne  so the battle of the trident  for exp if refought becomes a loyalist walkover...already a battle the loyalists had numeric advantage and now replace 10k dornish with 40-50k westerlands troops!

Add in the fact that jamie is no longer needed as hostage! The young sword prodigy will be free to fight and so will lord tywins beast gregor! 

Tywins rep could also mean many houses with borderline commitment to rebels thinks twice and stays at home!

 

[Son of Man]

1 hour ago, Stormking902 said:

For this scenario lets say Aerys reached out to Tywin and apologises and offers a match between Cersie and Rhegar Targaryan, Aerys explains he has the high septon in his pocket and guarentees the princes mariage to the princess of Dorne would be anulled. 

Gaining the might of the Westerlands is a huge upgrade so lets say all Riverlands, Vale, and Stormlords stay loyal to there liege lord and Dorne with draws there troops at once since Rhegar wouldnt allow his children to be harmed obviously so his children are bad hostages. 

 

Who would win the newly constructed Roberts rebellion?. 

Aerys already had Highgarden and Dorne support.  Adding the Lannisters to his side would have guaranteed victory over the rebels.  

[Stormking902]

3 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Aerys already had Highgarden and Dorne support.  Adding the Lannisters to his side would have guaranteed victory over the rebels.  

I explained that Dorne has withdrawn there army due to Elia Martell being set aside for Cersie, and I also explained that the rebels were at 100% meaning ALL lords stay loyal to there liege lord which IMO evens it out. 

 

Rebels: The Norh, Vale, Stormlands and Riverlands 

Loyalists: The Reach, Westerlands and Crownlands 

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 9:13 AM, Bernie Mac said:

All things being equal then Robert is the likely winner, he is the most skilled military ruler we have seen in the series. 

Is Robert that skilled? He seems more like a brilliant warrior and figurehead rather than a skilled commander. He's easily one of the most powerful warriors of his time, sure, but he suffered military defeats despite that. Don't forget that he had Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and Hoster Tully to help him figure out battle strategies. While we don't know too much about the battles of Robert's Rebellion, from the looks of it, Robert didn't necessarily have any amazing military plans other than "Let's rush forward and take them head on before they know what hit them!" He drives his own men forward to take on three armies in a single day because of bravado and elan rather than any serious strategy, as far as I can tell. And I'm not saying that's bad: charisma is incredibly important and Robert was practically worshiped by his men, so they achieved great military successes. But when I think of true strategic victories, I think of Robb Stark outmaneuvering two Lannister armies and annihilating one of them while the other is forced to retreat to Harrenhal. And given who Robb's father is, I'd say that Ned Stark was the strategy-minded man while Robert was responsible for motivation, leading from the front, and basically inspiring his men with his own fearsome example. That's why the instant that a highly competent military man attacks him, Robert is defeated and driven back.

[LindsayLohan]

On 7/15/2018 at 8:55 AM, Stormking902 said:

For this scenario lets say Aerys reached out to Tywin and apologises and offers a match between Cersie and Rhegar Targaryan, Aerys explains he has the high septon in his pocket and guarentees the princes mariage to the princess of Dorne would be anulled. 

Gaining the might of the Westerlands is a huge upgrade so lets say all Riverlands, Vale, and Stormlords stay loyal to there liege lord and Dorne with draws there troops at once since Rhegar wouldnt allow his children to be harmed obviously so his children are bad hostages. 

 

Who would win the newly constructed Roberts rebellion?. 

This would imply that Aerys would somehow disinherit Aegon and Rhaenys?  The Crown Prince's first two children would be "bastardized" by the King?  Aerys would go from Civil War with the Baratheon/Tully/Stark/Arryn faction to Civil War with the Baratheon/Tully/Stark/Arryn/Martell faction, with the bonus of whomever held Rhaegar in high esteem (hello, JonCon) immediately rebelling, too.

I have no idea how that would work out, but Tywin would never accept. 

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Is Robert that skilled? He seems more like a brilliant warrior and figurehead rather than a skilled commander.

There are two types of great military commanders, the type who come up with their own brilliant strategy and the type who are willing to listen and take the counsel of their subordinates, Robert falls into the latter. 

There is a comment from Jorah which captures this

"Robert should have been born Dothraki," he said at last. "Your khal would tell you that only a coward hides behind stone walls instead of facing his enemy with a blade in hand. The Usurper would agree. He is a strong man, brave … and rash enough to meet a Dothraki horde in the open field. But the men around him, well, their pipers play a different tune. His brother Stannis, Lord Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark …"

On top of that Robert is an incredible fugurehead, a leader who can get smaller armies to defeat larger equivlent armies, the only commander we have actually do that in the series

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He's easily one of the most powerful warriors of his time, sure, but he suffered military defeats despite that. Don't forget that he had Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and Hoster Tully to help him figure out battle strategies.

well the battle of Gulltown did not feature either Hoster Tully or Ned while Robert was with any of them when he won the three battles of Summerhall. 

It is unclear if Robert actually needed their help to strategize, we only presume that is the case because the Robert we see clearly does not give a shit about ruling so comes across as a little stupid, but war and government are not the same and one can be gifted at one and a novice at the other.

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 But when I think of true strategic victories, I think of Robb Stark outmaneuvering two Lannister armies and annihilating one of them while the other is forced to retreat to Harrenhal. And given who Robb's father is, I'd say that Ned Stark was the strategy-minded man

Well in fairness, Tywin out strategize himself with at first the mistaken belief that the north would not get involved and then doubling down and on the idea that the Frey's would remain neutral. Jaime not properly using scouts or alerting his sleeping army at Riverrun was more of a lannister blunder than Stark brilliance. 

and it should be pointed out that Ned's son left his capital exposed. There is actually a huge parallel between the two wars and why Robert won and Robb lost.

GRRM: And sieges were a crucial part of medieval warfare. Storm's End was not geographically strategic, but it was the base of Robert's power, as important to House Baratheon as Winterfell was to the Starks. If it had fallen, Robert would have lost his home and his lands... and two of his brothers would have been hostages in enemy hands. All important chips. Also the fall of Storm's End might have convinced many of the storm lords supporting him that the time had come to bend the knee. So the castle was hardly unimportant.

 

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That's why the instant that a highly competent military man attacks him, Robert is defeated and driven back.

I disagree and too many people in the series have too high an opinion of Robert for their opinions not to be true. Robert's biggest weakness is his willingness to fight from the front, mistakes can happen to the greatest of warrior so he would always be vulnerable bit overall he is the best military leader we have seen in the series

[Stormking902]

Robert is IMO the greatest warrior we have seen in the MAD KING era, Ser Arthur is more gifted BUT in a battle scenario Roberts warhammer is a lot more practical and he was a surgeon with it lol. 1 on 1 vs Dayne faught three times Dayne wins 2/3. 

[Hugorfonics]

26 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There are two types of great military commanders, the type who come up with their own brilliant strategy and the type who are willing to listen and take the counsel of their subordinates, Robert falls into the latter. 

There is a comment from Jorah which captures this

"Robert should have been born Dothraki," he said at last. "Your khal would tell you that only a coward hides behind stone walls instead of facing his enemy with a blade in hand. The Usurper would agree. He is a strong man, brave … and rash enough to meet a Dothraki horde in the open field. But the men around him, well, their pipers play a different tune. His brother Stannis, Lord Tywin Lannister, Eddard Stark …"

On top of that Robert is an incredible fugurehead, a leader who can get smaller armies to defeat larger equivlent armies, the only commander we have actually do that in the series

well the battle of Gulltown did not feature either Hoster Tully or Ned while Robert was with any of them when he won the three battles of Summerhall. 

It is unclear if Robert actually needed their help to strategize, we only presume that is the case because the Robert we see clearly does not give a shit about ruling so comes across as a little stupid, but war and government are not the same and one can be gifted at one and a novice at the other.

Well in fairness, Tywin out strategize himself with at first the mistaken belief that the north would not get involved and then doubling down and on the idea that the Frey's would remain neutral. Jaime not properly using scouts or alerting his sleeping army at Riverrun was more of a lannister blunder than Stark brilliance. 

and it should be pointed out that Ned's son left his capital exposed. There is actually a huge parallel between the two wars and why Robert won and Robb lost.

GRRM: And sieges were a crucial part of medieval warfare. Storm's End was not geographically strategic, but it was the base of Robert's power, as important to House Baratheon as Winterfell was to the Starks. If it had fallen, Robert would have lost his home and his lands... and two of his brothers would have been hostages in enemy hands. All important chips. Also the fall of Storm's End might have convinced many of the storm lords supporting him that the time had come to bend the knee. So the castle was hardly unimportant.

 

I disagree and too many people in the series have too high an opinion of Robert for their opinions not to be true. Robert's biggest weakness is his willingness to fight from the front, mistakes can happen to the greatest of warrior so he would always be vulnerable bit overall he is the best military leader we have seen in the series

Im not sure Roberts all that cracked up to be.

 

When he'd learned of his brother's assault on Storm's End, Renly had split his forces, much as Robb had done at the Twins. His great mass of foot he had left behind at Bitterbridge with his young queen, his wagons, carts, draft animals, and all his cumbersome siege machinery, while Renly himself led his knights and freeriders in a swift dash east.

How like his brother Robert he was, even in that . . . only Robert had always had Eddard Stark to temper his boldness with caution. Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind with all his wagons and mules and oxen. He must come to battle soon, or starve.

 

Comparing bad tactics to Robert cant be a compliment. From what we know of RR, Robert didnt conceive great strategies or fight any renowned battles.

Gulltown. Thats like knights of the vale vs smallfolk

Summerhall. Which sounds nice from a nephews perspective but from what i gather the rebals kept winning and had great morale while the seperate loyalists were rushing to reinforce the battle.

Then hes unable to defeat Griff and Mace Tyrell, which kinda says something. Then the trident. 

Robert was great at inspiring loyalty, just not always at winning. Theres not that many great commanders in the series but i still dont think Robert is the best. Probably Stannis the two Starks and two Lannisters (not Jamie) are better, maybe others.

[Megorova]

Tywin would have won.

He's smarter than Robert. He had more experience. And he had more money. So he could have hired sellsword companies from Essos. Not to mention, that he had Cleganes.

Robert was big and strong, and had a war hammer. But in a fight against those two, he would have been sandwitched between The Mountain and The Hound, and beaten to a pulp, with his own war hammer, that they would have taken from him. For the two of them, it would have been as easy, as taking candy from a baby.

Robert was wounded at Ashford, and nearly lost that battle. Would have lost, if he didn't retreated. He has left Storm's End in a peril. His base, his own castle was beseiged by his enemies. He had nowhere to retreat, and had to run away to Stepstones. And there he was able to survive, during Battle of the Bells, only because Ned and Jon Arryn arrived in time to save his ass.

Robert is a horrible strategist. His sole victory, at Summerhall, was pure luck. The rest of the war was won by Ned and Jon, and Tywin. So no, against someone like Tywin, Robert had zero chances.

[hodorisfaclessman]

On 7/18/2018 at 12:26 AM, Megorova said:

Tywin would have won.

He's smarter than Robert. He had more experience. And he had more money. So he could have hired sellsword companies from Essos. Not to mention, that he had Cleganes.

The hound wasnt mentioned back then hed have been too young  but yeah you'd have the young mountain , sword prodigy jamie (not needed as hostage now) and prime selmy at trident backing rhaegar

Edit lyle crakenhall wouldnt been old enough too and jamie considers him top tier...just below the hound

[Lee-Sensei]

On 7/17/2018 at 11:33 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Is Robert that skilled? He seems more like a brilliant warrior and figurehead rather than a skilled commander. He's easily one of the most powerful warriors of his time, sure, but he suffered military defeats despite that. Don't forget that he had Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and Hoster Tully to help him figure out battle strategies. While we don't know too much about the battles of Robert's Rebellion, from the looks of it, Robert didn't necessarily have any amazing military plans other than "Let's rush forward and take them head on before they know what hit them!" He drives his own men forward to take on three armies in a single day because of bravado and elan rather than any serious strategy, as far as I can tell. And I'm not saying that's bad: charisma is incredibly important and Robert was practically worshiped by his men, so they achieved great military successes. But when I think of true strategic victories, I think of Robb Stark outmaneuvering two Lannister armies and annihilating one of them while the other is forced to retreat to Harrenhal. And given who Robb's father is, I'd say that Ned Stark was the strategy-minded man while Robert was responsible for motivation, leading from the front, and basically inspiring his men with his own fearsome example. That's why the instant that a highly competent military man attacks him, Robert is defeated and driven back.

Ned didn't seem to have much a military reputation. I'm sure he was competent, however Robert is the one consistently getting praised.

“That will bring you to th Dreadfort,” said Jon, “but unless your host can outmarch a raven or a line of beacon fires, the castle will know of your approach. It will be an easy thing for Ramsay Bolton to cut off your retreat and leave you far from the Wall, without food or refuge, surrounded by your foes.”

 

“Only if he abandons his siege of Moat Cailin.”

 

“Moat Cailin will fall before you ever reach the Dreadfort. Once Lord Roose has joined his strength to Ramsay’s, they will have you outnumbered five to one.”

 

“My brother won battles at worse odds.”

He won against gratuitously long odds.

 

"One hundred leagues from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell," said Artos Flint, the night the argument boiled to a head in Galbart Glover's longhall. "Three hundred miles as the raven flies."

 

"A long march," a knight named Corliss Penny said. "Not so long as that," insisted Ser Godry, the big knight the others called the Giantslayer. "We have come as far already. The Lord of Light will blaze a path for us."

 

"And when we arrive before Winterfell?" said Justin Massey. "Two walls with a moat between them, and the inner wall a hundred feet high. Bolton will never march out to face us in the field, and we do not have the provisions to mount a siege."

 

"Arnolf Karstark will join his strength to ours, never forget," said Harwood Fell. "Mors Umber as well. We will have as many northmen as Lord Bolton. And the woods are thick north of the castle. We will raise siege towers, build rams ..." And die by the thousands, Asha thought.

 

"We might do best to winter here," suggested Lord Peasebury. "Winter here?" Big Bucket roared. "How much food and fodder do you think Galbart Glover has laid by?"

 

Then Ser Richard Horpe, the knight with the ravaged face and the death' s-head moths on his surcoat, turned to Stannis and said, "Your Grace, your brother - "

 

The king cut him off. "We all know what my brother would do. Robert would gallop up to the gates of Winterfell alone, break them with his warhammer, and ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the Bastard with his right." Stannis rose to his feet. "I am not Robert. But we will march, and we will free Winterfell ... or die in the attempt.

 

"Stannis immediately cuts off some of his chief military advisors when he tries to advise him to be more Robertesque. It must have happened before.

 

Even ruined, Winterfell itself would confer a considerable advantage on whoever held it. Robert Baratheon would have seen that at once and moved swiftly to secure the castle, with the forced marches and midnight rides for which he had been famous. Would his brother be as bold.

 

This is Jons opinion. It was more than just bravado. He heard reports that his vassals were uniting to fight him at Summerhall so he moved to destroy them before they could link up. Then through his generosity and mercy he manages to turn these Lords over to his side.

 

At Ashford, he manages to retreat in good order where is Jaime Lannisters army was destroyed. The picture we get from Robert is of a charismatic and personable commander that maintains high morale among his troops. Am aggressive commander who can understand when a battle is lost.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 7/17/2018 at 5:26 PM, Megorova said:

Tywin would have won.

He's smarter than Robert. He had more experience. And he had more money. So he could have hired sellsword companies from Essos. Not to mention, that he had Cleganes.

Robert was big and strong, and had a war hammer. But in a fight against those two, he would have been sandwitched between The Mountain and The Hound, and beaten to a pulp, with his own war hammer, that they would have taken from him. For the two of them, it would have been as easy, as taking candy from a baby.

Robert was wounded at Ashford, and nearly lost that battle. Would have lost, if he didn't retreated. He has left Storm's End in a peril. His base, his own castle was beseiged by his enemies. He had nowhere to retreat, and had to run away to Stepstones. And there he was able to survive, during Battle of the Bells, only because Ned and Jon Arryn arrived in time to save his ass.

Robert is a horrible strategist. His sole victory, at Summerhall, was pure luck. The rest of the war was won by Ned and Jon, and Tywin. So no, against someone like Tywin, Robert had zero chances.

This is total nonsense.

[Megorova]

5 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

The hound wasnt mentioned back then hed have been too young 

In span of rebellion the Hound was 11-12, or 12-13. During the Sack of King's Landing - 12 or 13.

This is from ASOIAF-wikia: "He claims to have killed a man when he was twelve years old,^[13] possibly during Robert's Rebellion, as he was part of Tywin Lannister's host during the Sack of King's Landing.^[14] "

Joffrey, when he had just recently turned 12 years old, was taller than either Robb or Jon, both of which at that time were over 14 years old. So it's likely, that even when the Hound was a 12-y.o. boy, he and his older brother, both were taller and stronger than Robert, even though Robert was older than either of them.

4 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

This is total nonsense.

Robert has left Storm's End, unprepared for the war, when he went to fight at Summerhall. And then he lost the battle at Ashford, and his castle was taken under siege. So even though Robert has mastered "midnight rides", it doesn't make him a good war strategist.

Add to this, that Tywin wasn't the most honorable man in Westeros. He has sent the Mountain to deal with Elia and her children, he plotted Red Wedding with Boltons and Freys, to get rid of Starks. So there would have been no fair fight between Tywin and Robert.

[Angel Eyes]

So when it came to the plan for the Battle of the Trident, who made the plan?

[Megorova]

6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So when it came to the plan for the Battle of the Trident, who made the plan?

Probably Hoster Tully or Jon Arryn.

For various reasons. First of all, that battle and preparations for it were happening on Hoster's lands. Out of all of them, he knew the most, what kind of advantages and disadvantages were in that location. Also he was father-in-law to Ned and Jon Arryn, so it's likely, that they had to listen and abide to his advices. It seems to me, that out of four of them (Ned, Robert, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully), Robert had the lowest IQ. Most likely, that out of four of them, he was the best fighter/warrior, he was the best candidate for brawl, but brain action was left to his other companions, that were more intelligent than him.

And it could have been Jon Arryn, because he was a father figure to Ned and Robert. They respected him, he was older, and he had more battle experience, than either of them. Furthermore, when Robert became King, he has left all brain work to Jon. Which could be an indication, that during Robert's Rebellion all planning was also done not by Robert himself. Could be, that it was Jon's advice, for Robert to sail from Gulltown to Storm's End, make there a fast preparations, and go and do the same thing, that they have already done in The Vale - to attack Targaryen loyalists, that won't be willing to support Robert in the upcoming war. So Robert did just that, and when he has nearly lost at Ashford, he went back towards Jon Arryn's location. Because he himself, had no idea, what he should do next.

[Lee-Sensei]

55 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So when it came to the plan for the Battle of the Trident, who made the plan?

Eddard says that Robert was in command.

[hodorisfaclessman]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

In span of rebellion the Hound was 11-12, or 12-13. During the Sack of King's Landing - 12 or 13.

This is from ASOIAF-wikia: "He claims to have killed a man when he was twelve years old,^[13] possibly during Robert's Rebellion, as he was part of Tywin Lannister's host during the Sack of King's Landing.^[14] "

Joffrey, when he had just recently turned 12 years old, was taller than either Robb or Jon, both of which at that time were over 14 years old. So it's likely, that even when the Hound was a 12-y.o. boy, he and his older brother, both were taller and stronger than Robert, even though Robert was older than either of them.

 

He killed a man but we dont know the circumstances there and how big he was or skilled he was ,  id highly doubt hed match prime robert at that young age  (remember robert as a young man was at least equal to a adult  hound  in size ,skill and strength)  

  the hound is big as an adult but not freakishly so like his brother so  at 14 id say realisticly he wouldnt even best the adverage knight , his  brother by contrast was 20ish and an absolute beast by then !