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Who would win a war between Tywin and prime Robert Baratheon?


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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

In span of rebellion the Hound was 11-12, or 12-13. During the Sack of King's Landing - 12 or 13.

This is from ASOIAF-wikia: "He claims to have killed a man when he was twelve years old,[13] possibly during Robert's Rebellion, as he was part of Tywin Lannister's host during the Sack of King's Landing.[14] "

Joffrey, when he had just recently turned 12 years old, was taller than either Robb or Jon, both of which at that time were over 14 years old. So it's likely, that even when the Hound was a 12-y.o. boy, he and his older brother, both were taller and stronger than Robert, even though Robert was older than either of them.

Robert has left Storm's End, unprepared for the war, when he went to fight at Summerhall. And then he lost the battle at Ashford, and his castle was taken under siege. So even though Robert has mastered "midnight rides", it doesn't make him a good war strategist.

Add to this, that Tywin wasn't the most honorable man in Westeros. He has sent the Mountain to deal with Elia and her children, he plotted Red Wedding with Boltons and Freys, to get rid of Starks. So there would have been no fair fight between Tywin and Robert.

He won a decisive victory at Summerhall.

 

"My brother had a gift for inspiring loyalty. Even in his foes. At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm's End as prisoners. He hung their banners in the hall as trophies. Cafferen's white fawns were spotted with blood and Grandison's sleeping lion was torn near in two. Yet they would sit beneath those banners of a night, drinking and feasting with Robert. He even took them hunting.'These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,' I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. 'You should not be putting axes in their hands.' Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends. Lord Cafferen died at Ashford Castle, cut down by Randyll Tarly whilst fighting for Robert."

He retreated in good order so it was an indecisive victory.

Tyrell's reputation rested on one indecisive victory over Robert Baratheon at Ashford, in a battle largely won by Lord Tarly's van before the main host had even arrived.

Roberts region is isolated so that wasn't his fault.

Robert won battles at odds worse than five to one. None of the other Rebels can say that.

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2 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

He killed a man but we dont know the circumstances there and how big he was or skilled he was ,  id highly doubt hed match prime robert at that young age  (remember robert as a young man was at least equal to a adult  hound  in size ,skill and strength)  

  the hound is big as an adult but not freakishly so like his brother so  at 14 id say realisticly he wouldnt even best the adverage knight , his  brother by contrast was 20ish and an absolute beast by then !

The Hound is about 6'8. At 14 he was probably about 6'4.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

In span of rebellion the Hound was 11-12, or 12-13. During the Sack of King's Landing - 12 or 13.

This is from ASOIAF-wikia: "He claims to have killed a man when he was twelve years old,[13] possibly during Robert's Rebellion, as he was part of Tywin Lannister's host during the Sack of King's Landing.[14] "

Joffrey, when he had just recently turned 12 years old, was taller than either Robb or Jon, both of which at that time were over 14 years old. So it's likely, that even when the Hound was a 12-y.o. boy, he and his older brother, both were taller and stronger than Robert, even though Robert was older than either of them.

I'm sorry but this is a bizarre conclusion to come to, the 12 year old Hound was not in the same league as Robert in his prime. 

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Robert has left Storm's End, unprepared for the war, when he went to fight at Summerhall.

Clearly this is not correct, Storm's end withstood a siege for a year and was never taken, Robert left it fine. 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Probably Hoster Tully or Jon Arryn.

For various reasons. First of all, that battle and preparations for it were happening on Hoster's lands. Out of all of them, he knew the most, what kind of advantages and disadvantages were in that location. Also he was father-in-law to Ned and Jon Arryn, so it's likely, that they had to listen and abide to his advices. It seems to me, that out of four of them (Ned, Robert, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully), Robert had the lowest IQ. Most likely, that out of four of them, he was the best fighter/warrior, he was the best candidate for brawl, but brain action was left to his other companions, that were more intelligent than him.

And it could have been Jon Arryn, because he was a father figure to Ned and Robert. They respected him, he was older, and he had more battle experience, than either of them. Furthermore, when Robert became King, he has left all brain work to Jon. Which could be an indication, that during Robert's Rebellion all planning was also done not by Robert himself. Could be, that it was Jon's advice, for Robert to sail from Gulltown to Storm's End, make there a fast preparations, and go and do the same thing, that they have already done in The Vale - to attack Targaryen loyalists, that won't be willing to support Robert in the upcoming war. So Robert did just that, and when he has nearly lost at Ashford, he went back towards Jon Arryn's location. Because he himself, had no idea, what he should do next.

You have no evidence of any of this.

Robert is the one thats famous for his surprise attack. Robert is the one thats famous for his charisma. Robert is the one thats famous for his midnight rides and forced marches. Robert is the one thats famous for winning while overwhelmingly outnumbered.

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6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm sorry but this is a bizarre conclusion to come to, the 12 year old Hound was not in the same league as Robert in his prime. 

Clearly this is not correct, Storm's end withstood a siege for a year and was never taken, Robert left it fine. 

I didn't even realize that she said this. As an adult, the Hound is a couple of inches taller than Robert. At 12 he would be significantly shorter. He would also have much less strength, experience and skill. He would be destroyed.

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13 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

When did Robert beat 5 to 1 odds?

“That will bring you to th Dreadfort,” said Jon, “but unless your host can outmarch a raven or a line of beacon fires, the castle will know of your approach. It will be an easy thing for Ramsay Bolton to cut off your retreat and leave you far from the Wall, without food or refuge, surrounded by your foes.”
 
“Only if he abandons his siege of Moat Cailin.”
 
“Moat Cailin will fall before you ever reach the Dreadfort. Once Lord Roose has joined his strength to Ramsay’s, they will have you outnumbered five to one.”
 
“My brother won battles at worse odds.”
We don't know, however Stannis says that he won battles against worse odds. Plural.
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49 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
Quote

Robert has left Storm's End, unprepared for the war, when he went to fight at Summerhall.

Clearly this is not correct, Storm's end withstood a siege for a year and was never taken, Robert left it fine

No, he didn't.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Siege_of_Storm's_End

"Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End, took the majority of the stormlands' forces with him after the battles at Summerhall. He left his younger brother, Stannis, and a small garrison to hold Storm's End.[1] Following Robert's defeat by Lord Randyll Tarly at the Battle of Ashford,[2] driving Robert away from his base of power, the Tyrell host advanced directly on Storm's End, laying siege to it. The castle's granaries and storehouses were only half-full, as war had been unexpected.[3]"

Granaries and storehouses were half-full. Obviously, that Robert took provision for his troops, from his castle. He has left at the castle not enough of people, to defend it. And has left them not enough of food, to last long under siege. They had to eat horses, cats, dogs, and rats, and were even close to starting to eat their dead. 

So Robert has left the castle in a bad condition - uncapable of defence, and unable to last under a siege. That's NOT fine.

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53 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I didn't even realize that she said this. As an adult, the Hound is a couple of inches taller than Robert. At 12 he would be significantly shorter. He would also have much less strength, experience and skill. He would be destroyed.

I said, that Robert won't be able to win against the Hound and the Mountain, in a 1 VS 2 fight. And, based on Tywin's previous use of unfair methods, like sending the Mountain, to deal with unarmed woman and her little children, and butchering unsuspecting guests at the wedding, it's likely, that Tywin wouldn't have fought fair against Robert. He was smarter than Robert. He was too smart, to fight fair.

Even though the Hound, aged 12, wasn't as tall as his adult version, still he would have been useful in a fight. For example, in a fight like - Qhorin Halfhand VS Jon Snow and Ghost.

Robert/Qhorin VS Mountain/Jon and Hound/Ghost.

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11 minutes ago, Megorova said:

No, he didn't.

yeah, he did, the proof is in the pudding, the castle held out for a year under siege, not a single castle does that for a quarter as long in the war of the five kings. 

Quote

 

Granaries and storehouses were half-full. Obviously, that Robert took provision for his troops, from his castle.

no, this is what the world book has to say on the matter

 If the garrison's supplies had been sufficient to the task, the castle might have held out indefinitely, but the war had come quickly and the storehouses and granaries were only half-full. 

they were half full before Robert arrived, war was not expected, that is why they are half full but. 

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He has left at the castle not enough of people, to defend it.

that is demonstrably false since it was never taken. 

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And has left them not enough of food, to last long under siege. They had to eat horses, cats, dogs, and rats, and were even close to starting to eat their dead. 

that is what happens when war comes out of nowhere, especially wars that start during a winter. What do you expect Robert to do, magic up some food. 

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So Robert has left the castle in a bad condition - uncapable of defence, and unable to last under a siege. That's NOT fine.

All castles will eventually succumb to a siege should the war last long enough, Tywin's capital is no different. 

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17 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I said, that Robert won't be able to win against the Hound and the Mountain, in a 1 VS 2 fight. And, based on Tywin's previous use of unfair methods, like sending the Mountain, to deal with unarmed woman and her little children, and butchering unsuspecting guests at the wedding, it's likely, that Tywin wouldn't have fought fair against Robert. He was smarter than Robert. He was too smart, to fight fair.

Even though the Hound, aged 12, wasn't as tall as his adult version, still he would have been useful in a fight. For example, in a fight like - Qhorin Halfhand VS Jon Snow and Ghost.

Robert/Qhorin VS Mountain/Jon and Hound/Ghost.

He was smarter in many ways, however there's no evidence that he was a superior general. Why would he have to fight both at the same time.

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9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

yeah, he did, the proof is in the pudding, the castle held out for a year under siege, not a single castle does that for a quarter as long in the war of the five kings. 

First of all - less than a year. Second - there was not many people left at the castle. And Davos has brought them onions and fish. So they barely lasted for less than a year, on those half-empty storages + dogs, horses, rats + onions and fish.

Robert left small garrison at Storm's End. Probably there was less than 50 or so people.

In ASOS Storm's End garrison is 200-300 people. Obviously, that during Robert's Rebellion, he has left there significantly less. Which has taught a good lesson to Stannis, and when he had to leave that castle, during Wof5K, he has left there more people, than Robert did years ago.

22 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

What do you expect Robert to do, magic up some food

Jon did. By arranging deal with Iron Bank. And money can do wonders. Why I said in one of previous posts, that Tywin's wealth would have been one of his advantages against Robert.

25 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

why would he need to? are all the warriors with Robert simply going to allow that on the battlefield?  

People can't control, what's going to happen on the battle field. For example, at the Trident's battle, Barristan Selmy was supposed to protect Rhaegar, same as Lewyn Martell and Jonothor Darry. But two of them were killed, and when Barristan was trying to get back near Rhaegar, he was wounded by an arrow, a sword and a spear, and was unable to prevent Robert from killing Rhaegar. Did Barristan simply allowed Rhaegar to be killed? No. Nevertheless, Rhaegar still died.

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6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

First of all - less than a year.

it was around a year

 Ned found it hard to imagine what could frighten Stannis Baratheon, who had once held Storm's End through a year of siege, surviving on rats and boot leather while the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne sat outside with their hosts, banqueting in sight of his walls.

 

until you can find exactly how long it was then I'm comfortable with calling it that. 

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Second - there was not many people left at the castle.

of course, that is standard practice under a siege, you get rid of all the people you don't need, the Blackfish does the same during the war of the five kings

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 

And Davos has brought them onions and fish. So they barely lasted for less than a year, on those half-empty storages + dogs, horses, rats + onions and fish.

again, name a seige in the last 100 years of westeros history that lasted longer without defeat? 

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Robert left small garrison at Storm's End. Probably there was less than 50 or so people.

come on, stop guessing at numbers you don't know. there is zero indication there was less than 50 people. 

what we do know is that it was never taken. 

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

In ASOS Storm's End garrison is 200-300 people.

and it has been taken, has it not? Obviously Robert was more successful. 

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 

Obviously, that during Robert's Rebellion, he has left there significantly less.

how is that obvious? 

we know that Renly, in his words, left a strong garrison, we have no idea if Stannis did. There is no evidence that he left more men than Robert

quote evidence from the books to prove that it was significantly less, because this, like your original point about the food, sounds a lot like guesswork rather than actual facts

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Which has taught a good lesson to Stannis, and when he had to leave that castle, during Wof5K, he has left there more people, than Robert did years ago.

where is that claimed. at no point does Stannis claim he left more people or even that he left a large garrison. 

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Jon did. By arranging deal with Iron Bank.

you mean the iron bank that came to him? Jon had no contact with the bank before that, had no idea were he was going to get money to pay for food and then out of nowhere a banker turns up and gives him money. it is hardly a great example 

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And money can do wonders. Why I said in one of previous posts, that Tywin's wealth would have been one of his advantages against Robert.

certainly. but as i originally said, all things being equal (both sides having roughly the same strength) then Robert was the likely winner as he seems to the best military leader we have seen in the series. 

Tywin is certainly up there, but if we are talking about military command then Robert has the edge, Tywin having the ability to hire a 20k army is less to do with military leadership and more to do with wealth, which is not what the discussion is about. 

Tywin would have won the war for the crown if he joined them during Roberts Rebellion, however a straight up fight between the two of them as generals with roughly equal forces and Robert gets the edge, he is the most respected military leader in the series. 

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Did Barristan simply allowed Rhaegar to be killed? No. Nevertheless, Rhaegar still died.

Did Barristan or any of his other men allow him to fight two men at a time? 

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7 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The Hound is about 6'8. At 14 he was probably about 6'4.

Where does it ever say hes that large specificaly or are u going by the actor? 

Hes big but never described as freakishly so in fact jamie feels he and crakehall are about  evenly matched sizewise and notes its the hounds speed and ferocious nature means hed prob kill the strongboar not any size adv 

At 13- 14 he was prob a big lad but id very much doubt he was a match for most knights or tywin woulda had him in use, no at that age he was prob a big strong squire but still able to be put in check by most decent sized adult men 

At 13-14 hes just started puberty and prob wont be the brute we know til 17-18ish around when gregor began to be noticed too!

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7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin is certainly up there, but if we are talking about military command then Robert has the edge, Tywin having the ability to hire a 20k army is less to do with military leadership and more to do with wealth, which is not what the discussion is about.

Also worth pointing out that, even with all his wealth, Tywin hired the shitty Brave Companions, which were only good for pillaging peasants, and not a substantial fighting force.  Naturally, as is the sellsword's nature, Hoat abandoned the Lannisters as soon as Jaime Lannister's army was captured.  Tywin was a shitty judge and got an incredibly poor return on his investment.

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4 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said:

Where does it ever say hes that large specificaly or are u going by the actor? 

Hes big but never described as freakishly so in fact jamie feels he and crakehall are about  evenly matched sizewise and notes its the hounds speed and ferocious nature means hed prob kill the strongboar not any size adv 

At 13- 14 he was prob a big lad but id very much doubt he was a match for most knights or tywin woulda had him in use, no at that age he was prob a big strong squire but still able to be put in check by most decent sized adult men 

At 13-14 hes just started puberty and prob wont be the brute we know til 17-18ish around when gregor began to be noticed too!

Just off the top of my head, I would say Brienne is taller than Renly and Jaime and significantly heavier than either, but nowhere near the size of Gregor Clegane, who is the true giant in the series. Shorter than Hodor and the Greatjon, maybe a bit shorter than the Hound, maybe roughly the same height as Robert.

Gregor was noticed when he was a squire.

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11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

until you can find exactly how long it was then I'm comfortable with calling it that. 

Battle at Ashford was the last battle of 282. After it ended, Robert went to Stony Sept, and Mace Tyrell went to Storm's End.

Distance from Ashford to Stony Sept is identical to distance from Ashford to Storm's End (approximately 570 miles). So the two of them arrived to their destinations at about the same time - either in very late 282, like in December, or in early 283, like in January. It is known, that Battle of the Bells happened in early 283, and that Ned and Cat married not long after that. Robb was conceived on their wedding night. And he was born later that same year. So the latest possible time of their wedding is 40 weeks prior the end of December, and that's - last week of March. So Ned and Cat married between January and last week of March, and Robb was born between last week of September and last week of December.

In AGOT14 Robb is still 14. And Jon turns 15 in AGOT19. Bran turns 8 in AGOT24. Robb turned 15 sometime prior AGOT37. Bran turns 9 years old, sometime prior ACOK28, and he gets news about Robb's victory at Oxcross (the battle happened in 299), in his next chapter, in ACOK35. In ACOK32, when Sansa has received news about Oxcross, she is still 12 years old (her 13th birthday of that year (299) didn't happened yet). Robb turned 16 in ACOK55. On her wedding night, in ASOS28, Sansa said to Tyrion, that she will turn 13, when the moon turns, so either by the end of that month, or when the next month will begin. In ASOS53 Tyrion received news about Robb’s death. Last day of 299 was depicted in chapter ASOS59. Joffrey’s wedding, that happened on first day of 300, was depicted in ASOS60-62.

So, based on info given in the books, their birthdays are in this order:

1. Jon. 2. Bran. 3. Robb. 4. Sansa.

Jon was born earlier than Robb, and Robb was born between last week of September and last week of December. Queen Rhaella was sent to Dragonstone prior Rhaegar's death at Trident. Dany was born 9 months later (pregnancy lasts 9 months and 10 days), so she was conceived about two weeks prior departure to Dragonstone. GRRM said, that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. After Rhaegar's death, Ned went to KL, and arrived there shortly after the Sack. Then he went to Storm's End, and lifted that siege. Then he went to the Tower of Joy, and arrived there, when Lyanna was dying, after giving birth to Jon. So Jon was born, when siege of Storm's End was already lifted. Jon was born earlier than Robb; Robb already turned 16, prior he died in 299; based on Joffrey's words, Robb died at least one month prior Purple Wedding (because Joffrey wanted Robb's head to be delivered from the Twins to KL (distance between them is 835 miles, it will take at least 3 weeks to cover that distance), as his wedding present). Thus Robb died earlier, than in December. And he has already turned 16 years old, prior that. Thus his birthday is between last week of September and last week of November. Jon's birthday is before that, and Storm's End's siege ended even before that. Thus SE's siege ended not later than last week of November, or maybe even earlier than last week of September. The battle at Ashford was the last battle of 282, after it ended, Mace Tyrell went towards Storm's End, it took him 2-4 weeks to get there. He arrived there either in December of 282 or in January of 283. And siege ended not later, than last week of November of 283. Thus it lasted maximum 11 months, from December of 282 until November of 283, or from January of 283 until November of 283, or maybe it was as short as from January of 283 until August or September of 283, and thus lasted only 8 or 9 months. After Ned left KL, it took him approximately 10-20 days, to get to Storm's End (435 miles), and another 14-30 days to get from there to the Tower of Joy (570 miles), to arrive there in time for Jon's birth. Thus siege ended at least 14 days prior Jon's birth. And, as I already wrote many times - Jon was born earlier than Robb. 

Siege was lifted at least 14 days prior Jon's birth; Robb was born later than Jon; Robb was born earlier than in December, so the latest possible time, when siege was lifted is in the middle of November. And there's NO WAY, that Mace arrived to Storm's End as early as in November of 282. 

Thus siege lasted 8-11 months, which is LESS THAN A YEAR.

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5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Just off the top of my head, I would say Brienne is taller than Renly and Jaime and significantly heavier than either, but nowhere near the size of Gregor Clegane, who is the true giant in the series. Shorter than Hodor and the Greatjon, maybe a bit shorter than the Hound, maybe roughly the same height as Robert.

Gregor was noticed when he was a squire.

Huh i was talking sandor  gregor was freakishly big yes but sandor wasnt

Theres no evidence the hound is freakishly big just  a huge  strong adult man ..at 13ish hed have been a big lad but prob no match for most  adult knights 

We know at 12 he killed a man but that could have been anyone and dunno the circumstances (ie fair fight or just killed in a sudden rage by whatever sandor had at hand ) either way hes prob not gonna be much use in battle vs knights  til 16ish onwards.... possibly a bit later than gregor was noticed as he didnt have his brothers enormous bulk 

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