(spoilers AGOT) Why do we think that Ned is honorable when he is clearly not?

[GoT_Academy]

I've been re-reading ASOIAF and got to Ned II on AGOT, when Ned and Robert talk about Lyanna, Robert's Rebellion and the mother of Jon Snow. And it got me thinking. Basically, Ned has forsaken so many vows when he lied about Jon Snow's heritage - betrayed his king and his wife and the north. Ned is so strict when it comes to honor (see: Jaime) and laws (see: Jorah), but he seems to be fine with promising his sister to be dishonorable. His 16 year old sister eloped with a Rhaegar even though she was betrothed to someone else, Robert. Her Father, Lord of Winterfell, made that decision, and that decision is binding. But she didn't want to marry Robert. She wanted to marry someone else. Let's remember that this is a medieval world with feudal rules. We do not judge the characters according to contemporary values, because if we did then Ned should be vilified for not giving Will of the Night's Watch a fair trial and for his sword-happy use of capital punishment, when Will was telling the truth about the Others. But in Lyanna's case, we forgive Ned because he had personal reasons to promise her to lie. Were these reasons more valid than Jaime's reasons to kill the Mad King? Or more valid than Will's reasons to desert? If every lord in the realm would put personal emotions before the law - then there would be chaos. Yet, we overlook that.

 

The result of Lyanna's decision to betray her Father and family and house was an all-out civil war that caused thousands of deaths, untold emotional, physical and monetary suffering. But Ned doesn't seem to judge her for it in his internal monologues. Is he lying to himself? Or doesn't he see his hypocrisy?knowing Ned, would he have been so forgiving if another young daughter of a different big house - say, the Lannsiters - have done the same and descended the realm into chaos and then covered it up?

 

What do you think? I'm genuinely interested in hearing more views about this, because I don't remember hearing or reading anyone talk about Ned's dishonor. Not "cheating" on his wife (Catelyn doesn't care that he slept with someone else), but covering for his baby sister's grievous offense of putting herself before her Father, house, the north and the realm.

 

I talk more about that chapter, Ned II, in my re-reading ASOIAF video series on my YouTube channel, Got Academy.

[Bullrout]

Just now, GoT_Academy said:

I've been re-reading ASOIAF and got to Ned II on AGOT, when Ned and Robert talk about Lyanna, Robert's Rebellion and the mother of Jon Snow. And it got me thinking. Basically, Ned has forsaken so many vows when he lied about Jon Snow's heritage - betrayed his king and his wife and the north. Ned is so strict when it comes to honor (see: Jaime) and laws (see: Jorah), but he seems to be fine with promising his sister to be dishonorable. His 16 year old sister eloped with a Rhaegar even though she was betrothed to someone else, Robert. Her Father, Lord of Winterfell, made that decision, and that decision is binding. But she didn't want to marry Robert. She wanted to marry someone else. Let's remember that this is a medieval world with feudal rules. We do not judge the characters according to contemporary values, because if we did then Ned should be vilified for not giving Will of the Night's Watch a fair trial and for his sword-happy use of capital punishment, when Will was telling the truth about the Others. But in Lyanna's case, we forgive Ned because he had personal reasons to promise her to lie. Were these reasons more valid than Jaime's reasons to kill the Mad King? Or more valid than Will's reasons to desert? If every lord in the realm would put personal emotions before the law - then there would be chaos. Yet, we overlook that.

 

The result of Lyanna's decision to betray her Father and family and house was an all-out civil war that caused thousands of deaths, untold emotional, physical and monetary suffering. But Ned doesn't seem to judge her for it in his internal monologues. Is he lying to himself? Or doesn't he see his hypocrisy?knowing Ned, would he have been so forgiving if another young daughter of a different big house - say, the Lannsiters - have done the same and descended the realm into chaos and then covered it up?

 

What do you think? I'm genuinely interested in hearing more views about this, because I don't remember hearing or reading anyone talk about Ned's dishonor. Not "cheating" on his wife (Catelyn doesn't care that he slept with someone else), but covering for his baby sister's grievous offense of putting herself before her Father, house, the north and the realm.

 

I talk more about that chapter, Ned II, in my re-reading ASOIAF video series on my YouTube channel, Got Academy.

You assume much.  It is not proven that Lyanna slept with Rhaegar.  

[GoT_Academy]

2 minutes ago, Bullrout said:

You assume much.  It is not proven that Lyanna slept with Rhaegar.  

What is your take on Jon's parentage?

[Bullrout]

Just now, GoT_Academy said:

What is your take on Jon's parentage?

I am familiar with your theories from yt  I think you should know ahead of time that I am a fan of Dany and I am also what you might call a denigrator of Jon Snow.  I like who you don't like and I dislike who you like.  I wanted to get that out of the way so you know where I'm coming from.  

Jon is the bastard son of Lyanna Stark and Mance Rayder.  It fits the bard theme.  Mance knew the story of Bael.  He has the skills of a mummer who can get in and out of Winterfell as he pleased.  We know he's interested in something down at the crypts.  Like maybe Lyanna's grave.  He and Jon are very alike in terms of having trouble following rules.  

[Nevets]

10 hours ago, GoT_Academy said:

What do you think? I'm genuinely interested in hearing more views about this, because I don't remember hearing or reading anyone talk about Ned's dishonor. Not "cheating" on his wife (Catelyn doesn't care that he slept with someone else), but covering for his baby sister's grievous offense of putting herself before her Father, house, the north and the realm.

The reasons for Lyanna's disappearance with Rhaegar ARE NOT KNOWN.  While it is possible that it was an elopement on her part, there are many other possibilities, including possible involvement of prophecy or a simple kidnapping.  It's not even clear whether Ned knows exactly.

And what else is Ned supposed to do?  He isn't going to kill Jon.  He doesn't kill children: we know that.  So he hides him as his own, and doesn't tell anyone, for the safety of all concerned.  I don't see anything especially dishonorable in that.  If Robert knew, he might seek to have Jon killed, and Ned could find himself in trouble.  And as long as Jon isn't making a claim for the crown, no real harm is done.  And he can't make a claim if he doesn't know there is potentially one.   And once he joins the Night's Watch, any claim is rendered moot anyway. 

By the way, Will didn't tell Ned about the Others; that was in the show.  He wasn't even the one Ned executed.  That was Gared, and he wasn't very talkative.  Ned told Catelyn that he couldn't even reach him.

[White Ravens]

Wow, this might be a record.  Six posts in and we've heard from a Ned hater, a Jon hater and a Catelyn hater.  Come on Sansa and Arya haters:  Represent!  Daenarys haters are welcome, of course, but so far we have a Stark hate theme going on and it would be a shame to dilute it. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

Wow, this might be a record.  Six posts in and we've heard from a Ned hater, a Jon hater and a Catelyn hater.  Come on Sansa and Arya haters:  Represent!  Daenarys haters are welcome, of course, but so far we have a Stark hate theme going on and it would be a shame to dilute it. 

Fear not, things get weirder.  I couldn't figure out why this thread had different posts than those that I had read earlier in the day.  I finally figured out why.  Here's the same OP thread, started at the same time, but at least it isn't consumed with #BizarroIceAndFire options. 

 

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Wow, this might be a record.  Six posts in and we've heard from a Ned hater, a Jon hater and a Catelyn hater.  Come on Sansa and Arya haters:  Represent!  Daenarys haters are welcome, of course, but so far we have a Stark hate theme going on and it would be a shame to dilute it. 

I hope you are not referring to me.  I at least tried to say something useful.  Of course, that's probably too much work for most posters. <sigh!>

[White Ravens]

7 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I hope you are not referring to me.  I at least tried to say something useful.  Of course, that's probably too much work for most posters. <sigh!>

I wasn't referring to you.  I miscounted when I said six posts and should have typed five.  Sorry about that.

 

I'm just weary of the number of discussions there are here involving character bashing and responded with my default sarcasm mode. 

[Nevets]

2 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

I wasn't referring to you.  I miscounted when I said six posts and should have typed five.  Sorry about that.

 

I'm just weary of the number of discussions there are here involving character bashing and responded with my default sarcasm mode. 

I was joking.  I knew you weren't referring to me.  I too am getting increasingly frustrated not only with character bashing, but threads that invite character bashing, and let myself get carried away.  Sorry about that.

[White Ravens]

3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I was joking.  I knew you weren't referring to me.  I too am getting increasingly frustrated not only with character bashing, but threads that invite character bashing, and let myself get carried away.  Sorry about that.

*hugs!*  (or a handshake if you prefer)

[acwill07]

Oh look, another thread about this.  LOL.  

[White Ravens]

1 hour ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Fear not, things get weirder.  I couldn't figure out why this thread had different posts than those that I had read earlier in the day.  I finally figured out why.  Here's the same OP thread, started at the same time, but at least it isn't consumed with #BizarroIceAndFire options. 

 

Thanks for the link.  I think all pass on both versions from here on in. 

[The WolfSpider]

13 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

To be fair Catelyn Stark is no woman a man wants to sleep with. She is very stupid, and caused more deaths than Lyanna's hanky panky run away sex party.

Riiiight. She's beautiful with great tits, no guy wants to sleep with her.

[GoT_Academy]

22 hours ago, Bullrout said:

I am familiar with your theories from yt  I think you should know ahead of time that I am a fan of Dany and I am also what you might call a denigrator of Jon Snow.  I like who you don't like and I dislike who you like.  I wanted to get that out of the way so you know where I'm coming from.  

Jon is the bastard son of Lyanna Stark and Mance Rayder.  It fits the bard theme.  Mance knew the story of Bael.  He has the skills of a mummer who can get in and out of Winterfell as he pleased.  We know he's interested in something down at the crypts.  Like maybe Lyanna's grave.  He and Jon are very alike in terms of having trouble following rules.  

Who do I like and who don't I like? I am a fan of the story and want it to be awesome. Jon is maybe my favorite character in the books and Daenerys is right up there. I didn't enjoy the Sansa chapters as much, so the fact that she will be queen has nothing to do with liking her

[Ygrain]

Ah. So the guy lies to protect his dead sister and the life of her child, is still troubled by his lies fourteen years later, and that makes him as bad as someone who lies left and right, never keeps any promise and throws under the bus anyone who gets in the way.

Also, Lyanna didn't start a war. Aerys did, by executing and demanding executions of innocents, and people had enough of that, not to mention that they wanted to keep their heads attached to their body. Lyanna's actions, whatever they were, cost her her life at the age of sixteen. Really, how terrible of Ned to feel sorry for his erring sister.

[Lord Varys]

Ned projects the image of a man for who honor is the most important thing. Even Jon thinks that's what he is about. But family, the lives of innocents, and his friends are much more important to him than honor. That's mostly why he does what he does. He even forges his king's last will and lies through his teeth to his king just to spare the man further grief. That's how he sealed his own doom and the doom of his family. If King Robert had declared Cersei's children bastards on his deathbed and the message had spread while the man had still been alive, everything could have been different.

[Varysblackfyre321]

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned projects the image of a man for who honor is the most important thing. Even Jon thinks that's what he is about. But family, the lives of innocents, and his friends are much more important to him than honor. That's mostly why he does what he does. He even forges his king's last will and lies through his teeth to his king just to spare the man further grief. That's how he sealed his own doom and the doom of his family. If King Robert had declared Cersei's children bastards on his deathbed and the message had spread while the man had still been alive, everything could have been different.

Excellent summary-if Ned Valued honor literally above all else he wouldn't be likeable to much of the fandom. He is very honorble but he would sacrifice honor if it meant protecting someone he loves always. Even  his failings at KL I would not attribute to him being honorble-shortsighted, and overly concerned with his friend's happiness and want for revenge sure but not really his honor. 

[Angel Eyes]

19 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Wow, this might be a record.  Six posts in and we've heard from a Ned hater, a Jon hater and a Catelyn hater.  Come on Sansa and Arya haters:  Represent!  Daenarys haters are welcome, of course, but so far we have a Stark hate theme going on and it would be a shame to dilute it. 

Don’t hate the Starks so much as not seeing the purpose of Arya and Sansa’s plotlines in AFFC and ADWD.

[White Ravens]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Don’t hate the Starks so much as not seeing the purpose of Arya and Sansa’s plotlines in AFFC and ADWD.

Well, I can't force you to like their plot lines but I found them interesting.  They are both in training:  Arya to become an assassin and Sansa to play the Game of Thrones.  It is one of the challenges of reading a big story that involves waiting 5 -10 years between installments because only GRRM knows where this is all going.  Or at least the big stuff but, you know, he is constantly planting seeds and cultivating and weeding and nurturing so I'm sure by the time A Promise of Spring is published all of the major characters will experience things that even he hasn't thought of yet.