Lizard Lions in the Neck

[John Suburbs]

11 hours ago, Faera said:

I agree that magic is the most likely answer though I still wouldn't be too quick to rule out destruction of habitat and hunting as many of the large magical animals have indeed seem their numbers dwindle and seeming due to human intervention.

But yes there is no doubt in my mind that magic is behind all the wildlife and, basically, the aura of the Neck as a whole. I have always viewed it as this intrinsically magical place as it's creation was supply due to the magic of the CitY's greenseers. I've often felt there is something otherworldly and magical about the crannogmen. Much like how life adapt to nature, it seems reasonable to presume they adapt to an overflow of magic too. 

Honestly, I just want to see Howland Reed and his crannogmen! 

And it's not like the riverlands just to the south are entirely devoid of magic. Weird little ghosts on high hills, entire communities living in trees, magical lake men... All sorts of strange things happening there.

[John Suburbs]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The lemons thing isn't really an issue. Braavos is a damp, foggy, and relatively cold place. Not to mention a Venice-like city where trees could only be cultivated at an enormous expense.

The Neck is 'magically' warm, but that doesn't mean the climate and ground there supports lemon trees, or that anyone has ever tried to plant some there.

But there is no reason to believe that magic cannot make certain things possible in isolated regions that are not possible in nearby places. The Thenn Valley would be another such place, perhaps even Winterfell with its 'magical' hot springs, etc.

Yes, I'm not saying there should be lemons growing in the Neck, just that if LLs being in the Neck is perfectly natural, then there should be plenty of lemons growing throughout the southern half of Westeros, wherever there is nice sandy loam. And by extension, it would be perfectly reasonable to assume lemons can grow in Braavos.

But apparently the only lemons in Westeros are in Dorne, so the only rationales I can come up with for LLs in the Neck are that it is either just a goof and we should overlook it, or there is some magical explanation that we are not aware of and may never be.

Just one of the many random thoughts that pop into one's head as one is driving 15 hours up I-95.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

My best guesses are that it's just a goof and we should all just ignore it, or that since the Neck was supposedly created magically by the CotF in order to stop human encroachment, then it can also magically support LLs even during the long winters, which are also likely due to CotF magic.

My best guess is that it has taken to long between books.

LL's and lemon trees are at the bottom of my list of things I want to know about.

Martin's so called tricksy twists and turns are not paying off.

Ambiguity for the sake of ambiguity equals frustration. Then I settle down, and hopefully WoW will shed light on DwD.

Frankly, I have no idea where martin is going. I think that martin does not know where he is going with this story.

Most of my awe factor of his mystical, magical fictional world has evaporated.

 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, I'm not saying there should be lemons growing in the Neck, just that if LLs being in the Neck is perfectly natural, then there should be plenty of lemons growing throughout the southern half of Westeros, wherever there is nice sandy loam. And by extension, it would be perfectly reasonable to assume lemons can grow in Braavos.

The issue is that the Neck seems to be really not a normal place. I mean, those lizard lions could also prowl the Trident, considering the closeness of its forks to the Neck, yet the climate there doesn't seem to support them.

And in Braavos the issue is more the nature of the city - the climate, too, of course, but it is not very likely that (m)any trees grow there.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But apparently the only lemons in Westeros are in Dorne, so the only rationales I can come up with for LLs in the Neck are that it is either just a goof and we should overlook it, or there is some magical explanation that we are not aware of and may never be.

The Neck is most likely not just accidentally some quasi-tropical swamp land. I mean, that makes it the ideal place to create a second front against the Others after the Wall has fallen.

[Faera]

11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And it's not like the riverlands just to the south are entirely devoid of magic. Weird little ghosts on high hills, entire communities living in trees, magical lake men... All sorts of strange things happening there.

Sure, there is magic in every kingdom but the people don't necessarily feel as "as part of it" as the crannogmen are to their land. Plus, as others have pointed out, the Neck does seem to be an oddity compared to the rest of the North or its neighbouring kingdoms, which might have something to do with the Neck's very creation having been through a very powerful magic.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The issue is that the Neck seems to be really not a normal place. I mean, those lizard lions could also prowl the Trident, considering the closeness of its forks to the Neck, yet the climate there doesn't seem to support them.

And in Braavos the issue is more the nature of the city - the climate, too, of course, but it is not very likely that (m)any trees grow there.

The Neck is most likely not just accidentally some quasi-tropical swamp land. I mean, that makes it the ideal place to create a second front against the Others after the Wall has fallen.

I pretty much agree with this.

[MostlyMoody]

What's more likely - a made up species of 'crocodiles' living in cold swamps or lemons growing in cooler climates?

We know from text that tropical fruit is grown in colder climates via greenhouses. If they could be grown in a natural environment why even have those greenhouses at all?

[Quwertzuiopp]

You guys really have to realize that the lack of reptiles in the more temperate regions of earth has nothing at all to do with current climate conditions. They were simply killed by the last strong ice ages and haven't returned yet. 

There being no venomous snakes in northern latitudes is simply the result of those species of snakes that used to be venomous and living there all happening to be amongst those that went extinct because they were a smaller proportion of the pre-ice age snake population and only the most adaptable of the most populous species survived it. In fact, there are damn lizards all over central and eastern europe. 

There are literally snakes everywhere, up to damn northern Finland. There are snakes in Siberia, even in the more benign half of the perma frost part of Siberia.

Reptile species spread and population is simply a side effect of chaotic effects of the ice ages. Mass extinction events can be very random, and they don't have to hit a species for the reasons you think it would. Like I said, the lack of venomous or large snakes has nothing to do with those being inherently ill-suited to cold climates. It doesn't even have to be directly because they themselves were ill-suited, but because their prey died out or they were ill-suited to the areas they had to migrate to that were now in the temperature zone of their old habitat.

That's the very nature of mass extinction events. The survivors adapt and the species habitat physically shifts, but afterwards they carry their adaptions into the new-old habitat. And if they now aren't adapted to that anymore, a return can take a long long time, or never happen because of a new extinction event.

And if we get to the fucked up winters in Westeros the question isn't "How can there be Big Lizards in the Neck", it's "how can literally any species survive at all without starving". The fact of the matter is that all of Westeros shifts down one or more climate zones for years at a time in completely unpredictable patterns, it's a wonder any large animal lives there, period. And not because of the cold, but because of large creature being more food intensive and slow to repopulate. You can safely assume any creature that lives there at all is actually a different and more adapted species than their real world counter part, or Westeros would be mostly inhabited by rodents, insects, trees, grass and some small predators like foxes that have learned to get very very fat. How there even are any wolves is beyond me. Bears can turn into temporary polar bears and migrate to the coast (since a bear just can't get fat enough to hibernate for 4 years), but I have a hard time imagining wolves hunting seal.

The reason wolves are the second most questionable species is because of the first. Though that is more of a group: There is no fucking way that large game of our planet could survive Westeros. Even Caribou would die, as after 4 fucking years of Winter there hasn't been anything for them to eat in years. With 4 year winters, there wouldn't even be the summer where grass grows in the perma frost. There just wouldn't be grass or sapplings to eat.

If I can tolerate large game not going extinct every damn winter, if I can accept their population and their predator population dwindling so low they have enough food for 4 years or more, I can accept a cold resistant crocodile hibernating in a saltwater swamp of the Neck, a habitat that on this very planet in almost the same climate conditions was inhabited by larger reptiles before the last ice age.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Quwertzuiopp said:

You guys really have to realize that the lack of reptiles in the more temperate regions of earth has nothing at all to do with current climate conditions. They were simply killed by the last strong ice ages and haven't returned yet. 

There being no venomous snakes in northern latitudes is simply the result of those species of snakes that used to be venomous and living there all happening to be amongst those that went extinct because they were a smaller proportion of the pre-ice age snake population and only the most adaptable of the most populous species survived it. In fact, there are damn lizards all over central and eastern europe. 

There are literally snakes everywhere, up to damn northern Finland. There are snakes in Siberia, even in the more benign half of the perma frost part of Siberia.

Reptile species spread and population is simply a side effect of chaotic effects of the ice ages. Mass extinction events can be very random, and they don't have to hit a species for the reasons you think it would. Like I said, the lack of venomous or large snakes has nothing to do with those being inherently ill-suited to cold climates. It doesn't even have to be directly because they themselves were ill-suited, but because their prey died out or they were ill-suited to the areas they had to migrate to that were now in the temperature zone of their old habitat.

That's the very nature of mass extinction events. The survivors adapt and the species habitat physically shifts, but afterwards they carry their adaptions into the new-old habitat. And if they now aren't adapted to that anymore, a return can take a long long time, or never happen because of a new extinction event.

And if we get to the fucked up winters in Westeros the question isn't "How can there be Big Lizards in the Neck", it's "how can literally any species survive at all without starving". The fact of the matter is that all of Westeros shifts down one or more climate zones for years at a time in completely unpredictable patterns, it's a wonder any large animal lives there, period. And not because of the cold, but because of large creature being more food intensive and slow to repopulate. You can safely assume any creature that lives there at all is actually a different and more adapted species than their real world counter part, or Westeros would be mostly inhabited by rodents, insects, trees, grass and some small predators like foxes that have learned to get very very fat. How there even are any wolves is beyond me. Bears can turn into temporary polar bears and migrate to the coast (since a bear just can't get fat enough to hibernate for 4 years), but I have a hard time imagining wolves hunting seal.

The reason wolves are the second most questionable species is because of the first. Though that is more of a group: There is no fucking way that large game of our planet could survive Westeros. Even Caribou would die, as after 4 fucking years of Winter there hasn't been anything for them to eat in years. With 4 year winters, there wouldn't even be the summer where grass grows in the perma frost. There just wouldn't be grass or sapplings to eat.

If I can tolerate large game not going extinct every damn winter, if I can accept their population and their predator population dwindling so low they have enough food for 4 years or more, I can accept a cold resistant crocodile hibernating in a saltwater swamp of the Neck, a habitat that on this very planet in almost the same climate conditions was inhabited by larger reptiles before the last ice age.

Well, there are poisonous snakes in northern climates. There are copperheads and moccasins (cottonmouths) in New England, and even a few Timber Rattlers as well. Gators are only recently being spotted in North Carolina, and everyone once in a while they get one as far north as Delaware or New Jersey, but this is all tied to a warming client. (I think they found one in Boston not long ago, but it had a collar around it's neck).

In Westeros, however, the question remains: If lizard lions have migrated to the Neck, why are they not prowling up and down the Trident or the forks? Why are they reported virtually nowhere else? How did they manage to get to the Neck and survive there, only to go virtually extinct in all of the other wetlands to the south that should provide habitats that are far more amenable?

[Hugorfonics]

4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

In Westeros, however, the question remains: If lizard lions have migrated to the Neck, why are they not prowling up and down the Trident or the forks? Why are they reported virtually nowhere else? How did they manage to get to the Neck and survive there, only to go virtually extinct in all of the other wetlands to the south that should provide habitats that are far more amenable?

No idea. I can guess though. Theres a medieval museum where i grew up that had a narwhal horn, apparently they were heavily sought after because one can claim it was a unicorn.

Everyone wants to be dragonbane. Some lizardlion skin could resemble dragonskin to a rich foolish septon or noble. Its possible that this drew it to extinction in the south

[John Suburbs]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No idea. I can guess though. Theres a medieval museum where i grew up that had a narwhal horn, apparently they were heavily sought after because one can claim it was a unicorn.

Everyone wants to be dragonbane. Some lizardlion skin could resemble dragonskin to a rich foolish septon or noble. Its possible that this drew it to extinction in the south

I would buy that if we had ever seen lizard-lion-skin clothing or armor, which ought to be pretty common if there was massive LL hunting going on. And I think it would be rather difficult for this society to eliminate gators from all the rivers and lakes across the realm.

Besides, rather than hunt them, it would make much more sense to just pen them up and farm them like hogs. It's not like they require a whole lot of room to roam.

[Hugorfonics]

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I would buy that if we had ever seen lizard-lion-skin clothing or armor, which ought to be pretty common if there was massive LL hunting going on. And I think it would be rather difficult for this society to eliminate gators from all the rivers and lakes across the realm.

Besides, rather than hunt them, it would make much more sense to just pen them up and farm them like hogs. It's not like they require a whole lot of room to roam.

Some lizarlion shoes wouls be pretty pimp lol, but maybe thats not style in Westeros. Meera and Jojen dont dress in crocs.

We're talking about a few thousand years. I dont think any animal is safe from mankinds wrath over such a time. Like giants, children of the forset and dodos.

I just read an article about a farm for crocs in, i think the Philippines. Very sad. It doesnt make sense to preserve them, short of saving a species. Theyre murderous animals, unlike hogs

[Faera]

I feel silly for not thinking of it before. Considering that Westeros has a habit of going through winters that last years, even decades, such as the Long Night around 8000 years ago, one would expect reptiles to have indeed become less populace in most parts of the continent. The obvious excels would be Dorne, which probably seldom ridiculously cold and some parts of the Reach. So, that would perhaps be another indication the Neck enjoys milder winters or might have something keeping it warm for so many cold-blooded animals to survive.

On 7/20/2018 at 8:31 PM, John Suburbs said:

I would buy that if we had ever seen lizard-lion-skin clothing or armor, which ought to be pretty common if there was massive LL hunting going on. And I think it would be rather difficult for this society to eliminate gators from all the rivers and lakes across the realm.

Besides, rather than hunt them, it would make much more sense to just pen them up and farm them like hogs. It's not like they require a whole lot of room to roam.

I agree though farming lizard lions doesn't feel like it would be practical with medieval technology anyway. People in our world only started doing it in earnest with gators and crocs over the last 100-150 years or so. They aren't a domesticated species, are large animals and predators too -- and lizard lions are massive versions of that same animals.

So, I'm going to guess the demand just isn't there for lizard lion leather; Meera wears sheepskin not lizard lion. If the heirs of Greywater aren't decked out in lizard lion leather, even if they do use their skins on the occasions, it probably isn't widespread. The implication is that the crannogmen only hunt the lizard lions for food and even then they seem to depend more on the fowl, fish and frogs for their diet more than the existing lizard lion population.