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Angel Eyes

Division of the Kingsguard of Aerys II

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So if Rhaegar was planning a coup against King Aerys II, which way would the Kingsguard be divided? I know that Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent would probably follow Rhaegar, but what of the rest?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So if Rhaegar was planning a coup against King Aerys II, which way would the Kingsguard be divided? I know that Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent would probably follow Rhaegar, but what of the rest?

W/ Rhaegar: Dayne, Whent, Martell, Hightower, Jaime

W/ the mad king: Selmy, Darry

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So if Rhaegar was planning a coup against King Aerys II, which way would the Kingsguard be divided? I know that Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent would probably follow Rhaegar, but what of the rest?

Prior to the Harrenhal Tourney, I think Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, and Lewyn Martell were probably well within the camp of Rhaegar and Elia, but I don't think any of them would have openly rebelled against King Aerys in favor of Rhaegar, nor do I think Rhaegar would have asked them to do so. Nor do I think Ned would have the regard he has for them if he thought they had abandoned and disregarded Aerys their king. I think Rhaegar generally attempted to work within "the system," and had hoped to restrict his father and assume rule on behalf of his father from within "the system."

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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Jon Darry is there with Rhaegar and Jaime when Rhaegar tells Jaime that changes will be made after the battle (of the Trident). So it doesn't seem like Rhaegar is hiding things from these men. And even Barristan in his personal thoughts seems to be leaning toward supporting whatever Rhaegar was intent on doing, but he laments that he never trusted him as he trusted Arthur.

I think the Kingsguard would have fallen in line with having Aerys's powers restricted. It's not like Rhaegar was planning to go to war against Aerys (as far as we know at least).

Edited by Widow's Watch

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As long as Rhegar wasnt trying to kill his father ALL memebers of the KG were with the prince, they all could obviously see Aerys was insane. 

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The Kingsguard stands with the king. A coup implies violence, and if Rhaegar had ever tried to arrest his father or kill his loyalists I really don't see any of Aerys' Seven standing with him. That would go against everything they stand for.

With the Great Council idea I think Rhaegar could only truly count on Dayne and Whent. Lewyn would have been favorably inclined until Harrenhal. Afterwards he may have gladly served the king Rhaegar's head on a platter if the king had accused Rhaegar of treason.

And Jaime only snapped at the very end. The man wanted to serve his king as late as Harrenhal. He didn't take a white cloak to depose his king.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Kingsguard stands with the king. A coup implies violence, and if Rhaegar had ever tried to arrest his father or kill his loyalists I really don't see any of Aerys' Seven standing with him. That would go against everything they stand for.

With the Great Council idea I think Rhaegar could only truly count on Dayne and Whent. Lewyn would have been favorably inclined until Harrenhal. Afterwards he may have gladly served the king Rhaegar's head on a platter if the king had accused Rhaegar of treason.

And Jaime only snapped at the very end. The man wanted to serve his king as late as Harrenhal. He didn't take a white cloak to depose his king.

The LC of the KG and two of his brothers sat at the ToJ for months while the world went to hell in a handbasket, largely because of Aerys. 

No blades we allowed in Aerys' presence except KG. It would have been pretty trivial for Rhaegar to have Aerys seized by those KG when the castle was asleep. It's not as if he lacked retainers to help back him up.

Any Great Council would be seen by Aerys as a threat to him and his throne. That would have meant violence in and of itself. Rhaegar might have made some poor decisions but he made that speech to Jaime with an army at his back. He knew that was the only way he could effect the change needed to get Aerys off the throne.

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5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

No blades we allowed in Aerys' presence except KG. It would have been pretty trivial for Rhaegar to have Aerys seized by those KG when the castle was asleep. It's not as if he lacked retainers to help back him up.

But it is not that those Kingsguard were willing to do that, no? Nor is it the case that King Aerys II lacked retainers. Not even after Rhaegar's death. KL and the Red Keep were with full with Targaryen loyalists when Tywin arrived there. There is no reason to believe that Aerys did put a literal army of Rhaegar fans in the important positions in the Red Keep and the city. Rhaegar even resided on Dragonstone.

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Any Great Council would be seen by Aerys as a threat to him and his throne. That would have meant violence in and of itself. Rhaegar might have made some poor decisions but he made that speech to Jaime with an army at his back. He knew that was the only way he could effect the change needed to get Aerys off the throne.

The idea is that the KG may have thought that a Great Council-like situation may have granted Rhaegar the authority to move against his father. Without that, without even the pretext of legitimacy on Rhaegar's part, the KG would, most likely, have stood with Rhaegar. And even Dayne and Whent wouldn't have helped the man in any direct attempt against his father.

I mean, whatever Rhaegar pretended he would do, moving against the king in any shape or form meant that the king's person might be harmed - or that he might be killed. Any true Kingsguard couldn't stand for that. It would go against anything they stand for, against everything they have sworn to do.

The nonsensical idea that the Kingsguard has a right to put the good of the Realm before the king's person is just that - a nonsensical idea. Good men might be doing that, but if they take their duties as KG seriously, they would put the king before the good of the Realm. I mean, a 'good man' would have smothered King Aerys in his sleep around the time he dealt with the Starks and Brandon's companions.

Obviously none of Aerys' Seven were 'good men' of that type - men willing to forswear their vows. I mean, even Jaime 'I don't want to see men burned or the queen raped' Lannister just stood there and watched until Aerys had already lost and there was pretty much no risk involved putting the mad dog down. Not to mention that he pledged himself to Aerys' Kingsguard at a time when any sane man would have known what kind of man Aerys had become and how, well, unpleasant it would be to serve such a man as a KG. I mean, his father was Tywin Lannister, the King's Hand for twenty years. He would have heard about Aerys' lapses as well as the severe changes the king had undergone after Duskendale.

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21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

W/ Rhaegar: Dayne, Whent, Martell, Hightower, Jaime

W/ the mad king: Selmy, Darry

Why do you think Hightower would have sided with Rhaegar? He's the man that told Jaime to shut the hell up and let Aerys rape his wife. He'd need good reason to even think about it. 

 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

"The idea is that the KG may have thought that a Great Council-like situation may have granted Rhaegar the authority to move against his father. Without that, without even the pretext of legitimacy on Rhaegar's part, the KG would, most likely, have stood with Rhaegar. And even Dayne and Whent wouldn't have helped the man in any direct attempt against his father." 

This confuses me, Lord Varys. In the first sentence you claim that some think a Great Council grants legitimacy to Rhaegar's authority. You then go on to say that without it, the KG would have stood with Rhaegar. However, the logical conclusion seems to be that without a pretext of legitimacy they would stand with Aerys. Hence, I am confused.

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2 minutes ago, Prince Jon Targaryen said:
21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

W/ the mad king: Selmy, Darry

Why do you think Hightower would have sided with Rhaegar? He's the man that told Jaime to shut the hell up and let Aerys rape his wife. He'd need good reason to even think about it

Nope, that was Darry. 

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Sorry mate, mistake on my part. But Hightower is Lord Commander, the White Bull. He's the one that took Jaime aside after the burning of the Starks and reminded him that they were sworn to obey the king, not judge him. I still think he'd need good reason to side with Rhaegar.

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4 minutes ago, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

Sorry mate, mistake on my part. But Hightower is Lord Commander, the White Bull. He's the one that took Jaime aside after the burning of the Starks and reminded him that they were sworn to obey the king, not judge him. I still think he'd need good reason to side with Rhaegar.

No worries. 

Well, Hightower was at the ToJ w/ Dayne and Whent, I assume on Rhaegar's orders. 

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8 minutes ago, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

Sorry mate, mistake on my part. But Hightower is Lord Commander, the White Bull. He's the one that took Jaime aside after the burning of the Starks and reminded him that they were sworn to obey the king, not judge him. I still think he'd need good reason to side with Rhaegar.

 

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No worries. 

Well, Hightower was at the ToJ w/ Dayne and Whent, I assume on Rhaegar's orders. 

I believe we are actually told that Aerys ordered Hightower to bring Rhaegar back, that at least implies Hightower should have come back with him, so it appears to me Hightower literally listened to Rhaegar above Aerys.

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"Well, Hightower was at the ToJ w/ Dayne and Whent, I assume on Rhaegar's orders."

 

The only problem I find with that logic is doing that explicitly fits inside their vows unless they are ordered to not do that by Aerys. Most likely Rhaegar ordered them to stay and they obeyed a member of the royal family like they were supposed. If they were ordered to not do that by Aerys and they still did, that shows their loyalty to Rhaegar, but if Rhaegar just asked them to, that fits their vows perfectly, no questions asked.

Edited by Prince Jon Targaryen

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2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

I believe we are actually told that Aerys ordered Hightower to bring Rhaegar back, that at least implies Hightower should have come back with him, so it appears to me Hightower literally listened to Rhaegar above Aerys.

Thank you! I'd be very interested to find that source, friend. That changes everything. As a Rhaegar supporter, I'd love to read that myself.

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29 minutes ago, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

Sorry mate, mistake on my part. But Hightower is Lord Commander, the White Bull. He's the one that took Jaime aside after the burning of the Starks and reminded him that they were sworn to obey the king, not judge him. I still think he'd need good reason to side with Rhaegar.

If Ned's fever dream is any indication, I think Hightower was firmly in the camp of supporting Aerys no matter what. I don't think even Dayne and Whent would have openly defied or gone against the king, though I do believe they were in the camp of helping Rhaegar accomplish his objectives from within their vows. But I suspect Rhaegar gave Hightower an ultimatum that he would agree to return to King's Landing but Hightower had to remain at the tower. I don't think Hightower was there because he sided with Rhaegar.

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22 minutes ago, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

Thank you! I'd be very interested to find that source, friend. That changes everything. As a Rhaegar supporter, I'd love to read that myself.

On phone at the mo but it's in the WB. 

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23 minutes ago, Prince Jon Targaryen said:

Thank you! I'd be very interested to find that source, friend. That changes everything. As a Rhaegar supporter, I'd love to read that myself.

I believe the source is the World of Ice and Fire mobile app.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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19 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I believe the source is the World of Ice and Fire mobile app.

How I hate in app purchases. I'll take your word for it but it wants me to pay to read the character profile. I wonder if anyone else has screenshots or the like.

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