Winter wars of the past?

[Stormking902]

Are there any wars from history we can draw information from to see how winter warfare comes into play? I cant recall any war at all in the dead of winter but I know there must have been a few, long winters would be a complete NIGHTMARE when talking about logistics and feeding armys maybe even impossible long term. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

30 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Are there any wars from history we can draw information from to see how winter warfare comes into play? I cant recall any war at all in the dead of winter but I know there must have been a few, long winters would be a complete NIGHTMARE when talking about logistics and feeding armys maybe even impossible long term. 

Brandon Ice Eyes is the most notable example, I guess. He marched from Winterfell to White Harbor - probably by using sleds on the frozen White Knife - not only in Winter but in a particularly cold Winter, and took the Wolfsden fortress by surprise.

So certainly the Northmen have the ability to conduct limited scale warfare in Winter.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Are there any wars from history we can draw information from to see how winter warfare comes into play? I cant recall any war at all in the dead of winter but I know there must have been a few, long winters would be a complete NIGHTMARE when talking about logistics and feeding armys maybe even impossible long term. 

Mongols led some pretty nifty campaigns in Russia in the winter. Used frozen rivers as highways to travel real far, real quick. Battle of the Ice comes to mind too.

I don't know if it's realistic to expect much "mongol-style" warfare in Westeros OR from the Dothraki but it would be rooted in history (if grossly unrealistic given the portrayal of Dothraki warfare we've seen). 

[Stormking902]

12 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Brandon Ice Eyes is the most notable example, I guess. He marched from Winterfell to White Harbor - probably by using sleds on the frozen White Knife - not only in Winter but in a particularly cold Winter, and took the Wolfsden fortress by surprise.

So certainly the Northmen have the ability to conduct limited scale warfare in Winter.

Northerners probably know about winter warfare but do southern lords? Have any southerners gone to war in the winter? 

 

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

If your talking about the books I think the example @Free Northman Reborn gave is the only one we have.  If your talking about the real world, I think there are many examples that could be given that show a small limited operation can actually be very successful due to the element of surprise, but that in general gathering a large army and trying to travel a large distance is a terrible mistake.

As an American, George Washingtons attacks at Princeton and Trenton NJ on Christmas come immediately to mind, they were the only victories we had to that point in the war.

[Stormking902]

34 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

If your talking about the books I think the example @Free Northman Reborn gave is the only one we have.  If your talking about the real world, I think there are many examples that could be given that show a small limited operation can actually be very successful due to the element of surprise, but that in general gathering a large army and trying to travel a large distance is a terrible mistake.

As an American, George Washingtons attacks at Princeton and Trenton NJ on Christmas come immediately to mind, they were the only victories we had to that point in the war.

Yea I ment in Asoiaf, I find it odd that there are 6 years of winter and no wars to speak of. Surely a king of old would have an idea of surprising his enemy in year 3 of winter for example, a siege in winter would be triple as effective IMO. 

[Trigger Warning]

A siege in Winter's going to damage the besieging army much more than the defenders, there's a reason why nobody does it unless they have to. You're basically putting all of that attrition and damage to morale on your own army whilst they sit inside shelter consuming their winter stores no slower than they would in Summer, what advantages would you gain that make it triple as effective? 

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Yea I ment in Asoiaf, I find it odd that there are 6 years of winter and no wars to speak of. Surely a king of old would have an idea of surprising his enemy in year 3 of winter for example, a siege in winter would be triple as effective IMO. 

I believe the only way to make a siege more effective is to launch it by surprise so that the defenders have no time to bring in stores, and so that you can take over their farmlands to feed yourself.  In winter you cannot feed yourself off the enemies land and have to bring in all your own supplies.  Armies also move slower in the snow, and you need to eat more to survive when you burn calories moving, and also to keep warm when exposed to the elements and not behind high walls with fireplaces.

If you start a siege during the winter, the enemy would have already gathered enough food for years since that is what you do during winter anyway, so I have to say I think it would be a disaster.

Brandon Ice Eyes plan worked because he was able to cross a frozen bay/river mouth that is not normally frozen presumably because of the salt content and waves.  He was then able to attack by surprise and so in this instance it worked.  This led to some speculation about the Freys being attacked during winter because the Crossing would theoretically be more vulnerable to an assault if the river was frozen.  But in general it is incredibly difficult to pull off.  Take the Vale for instance, they are snowed in and cannot cross the mountains, so they would have to sail, and we are explicitly told that the storms in the winter are the most violent, so you risk loosing your entire army before it even arrives where you want to attack.

So while I am sure there have been some minor engagements, people making a quick surprise attack, the odds are there have not been major wars.

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Northerners probably know about winter warfare but do southern lords? Have any southerners gone to war in the winter?

Wasn't Robert's Rebellion happening during winter?

Tournament at Harrenhal, was happening in 281, the year of false spring. Then in the beginning of 282, it began snowing again. In the beginning of Rebellion, Robert and Jon Arryn went to Gulltown (port city), because during winter, it's impossible to get out of The Vale via land-route, so they needed to get ships from Gulltown, to transport Robert to Storm's End, and Arryn's troops to Trident, via sea-route.

[Valyrian Lance]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Wasn't Robert's Rebellion happening during winter?

Tournament at Harrenhal, was happening in 281, the year of false spring. Then in the beginning of 282, it began snowing again. In the beginning of Rebellion, Robert and Jon Arryn went to Gulltown (port city), because during winter, it's impossible to get out of The Vale via land-route, so they needed to get ships from Gulltown, to transport Robert to Storm's End, and Arryn's troops to Trident, via sea-route.

Yes. It absolutely began in the winter at the very least.

Of course, Dany was also born in the summer.

Quote

She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. 

 

[Stormking902]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I believe the only way to make a siege more effective is to launch it by surprise so that the defenders have no time to bring in stores, and so that you can take over their farmlands to feed yourself.  In winter you cannot feed yourself off the enemies land and have to bring in all your own supplies.  Armies also move slower in the snow, and you need to eat more to survive when you burn calories moving, and also to keep warm when exposed to the elements and not behind high walls with fireplaces.

If you start a siege during the winter, the enemy would have already gathered enough food for years since that is what you do during winter anyway, so I have to say I think it would be a disaster.

Brandon Ice Eyes plan worked because he was able to cross a frozen bay/river mouth that is not normally frozen presumably because of the salt content and waves.  He was then able to attack by surprise and so in this instance it worked.  This led to some speculation about the Freys being attacked during winter because the Crossing would theoretically be more vulnerable to an assault if the river was frozen.  But in general it is incredibly difficult to pull off.  Take the Vale for instance, they are snowed in and cannot cross the mountains, so they would have to sail, and we are explicitly told that the storms in the winter are the most violent, so you risk loosing your entire army before it even arrives where you want to attack.

So while I am sure there have been some minor engagements, people making a quick surprise attack, the odds are there have not been major wars.

Your points about a winter siege are valid, my point is that during winter the castle you have under siege cant get reinforcments from an ally AND most castles are not huge like WF, Eryie, Storms End, etc the grainery of a smaller castle last 1 to 2 years and these castles store food outside the castle as well. Just because its Winter doesnt mean you stay behind your walls untill spring. 

Like I said though you are correct and im wrong a more effective siege would be outside of winter. 

[Stormking902]

34 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Wasn't Robert's Rebellion happening during winter?

Tournament at Harrenhal, was happening in 281, the year of false spring. Then in the beginning of 282, it began snowing again. In the beginning of Rebellion, Robert and Jon Arryn went to Gulltown (port city), because during winter, it's impossible to get out of The Vale via land-route, so they needed to get ships from Gulltown, to transport Robert to Storm's End, and Arryn's troops to Trident, via sea-route.

Didnt lord Rickard take the kings road when summoned by Aerys? If it was Winter wouldnt transport via Whitesharbour be the more practical route.

[Megorova]

42 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Didnt lord Rickard take the kings road when summoned by Aerys? If it was Winter wouldnt transport via Whitesharbour be the more practical route.

No, because he was going from Winterfell to Riverrun, to attend Brandon's wedding. So when he went to King's Landing, he was going there from Riverrun, by King's Road.

It isn't known, whether originally Starks traveled to Riverrun from Winterfell, via sea-route - by White Knife river, thru White Harbor, by Trident thru Red Fork river. Though maybe because of winter, narrower rivers, such as White Knife and Red Fork, were frozen, and thus were inaccessible by ships. While The Bite, Bay of Crabs and from it Trident (until it divided further west into narrower Red, Blue, and Green Forks) weren't frozen.

Thus, most likely, Starks came to Riverrun via land-route; Red Fork was frozen; they didn't had a ship, because they didn't traveled to Riverlands by ship; so when Aerys summoned Rickard, he had to go to KL by King's Road, by land. Though The Narrow Sea wasn't frozen, so later Ned and Robert were able to sail to White Harbor, and to Stormlands.

[Bael's Bastard]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Wasn't Robert's Rebellion happening during winter?

Tournament at Harrenhal, was happening in 281, the year of false spring. Then in the beginning of 282, it began snowing again. In the beginning of Rebellion, Robert and Jon Arryn went to Gulltown (port city), because during winter, it's impossible to get out of The Vale via land-route, so they needed to get ships from Gulltown, to transport Robert to Storm's End, and Arryn's troops to Trident, via sea-route.

Not necessarily. The False Spring interrupted close to two years of winter before winter returned with a vengeance at the end of 281 AC and for at least the first weeks of 282 AC, so it isn't clear how long, if at all, into the rebellion winter lasted.

[Megorova]

26 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

it isn't clear how long, if at all, into the rebellion winter lasted.

When Ned and Robert had to get home, it was still winter, and thus they couldn't get out of The Vale by land-route.

Distance from The Eyrie to Winterfell by land is 1535 miles, average speed of horse traved by road is 40 miles per day, thus Ned would have reached Winterfell in a bit more than 38 days. Though the way he went (thru the Vale of Arryn to The Fingers - 470 miles (speed of horse travel thru grass lands and hills is 20 miles per day) - 23,5 days + 870 nautical miles by boat thru The Bite (if it was boat with sails, then its average speed was approximately 5 nautical miles per hour, and they could have sailed 24/7, 870/5/24=7,25 days; or if it was a rowing boat, then the speed was 3-4 knots, 20-years old Ned, and his companion - professional fisherman, could have rowed 8 hours per day, 870/3,5/8=31 day) + 7,25 days or 31 day + by ship from White Harbor thru White Knife to proximity of Winterfell - 350 nautical miles (350/5/24=2,9 days) = 23,5 days + 2,9 days + 7,25 days or 31 days = 34-57,5 days.

So 38 days by road, where main job was done by horse, or close to 60 days by various routes, where he will have to either row for 8 hours per day, or to sail 24 hours per day. Obviously that land-route is quicker, safer and easier for traveling, and about 150 miles shorter, so why did he went by alternative route thru The Bite? -> Because the land exit out of The Vale was snowed in until spring.

Why did they went to Gulltown -> because they needed ships, to get out of The Vale.

Didn't LF and Sansa discussed in TWOW, that during winter, the only way to get to The Vale, or out of it, is by sea?

[Dorian Martell's son]

20 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Are there any wars from history we can draw information from to see how winter warfare comes into play? I cant recall any war at all in the dead of winter but I know there must have been a few, long winters would be a complete NIGHTMARE when talking about logistics and feeding armys maybe even impossible long term. 

Stannis is going to lead a battle in the dead of winter. The northmen seem to have little issue. only the southies are having trouble 

 

[Trigger Warning]

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Stannis is going to lead a battle in the dead of winter. The northmen seem to have little issue. only the southies are having trouble 

 

Worth noting that those Northmen literally live, fight and die in the mountains.

[Stormking902]

14 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Stannis is going to lead a battle in the dead of winter. The northmen seem to have little issue. only the southies are having trouble 

 

Dahm Southies 

[Megorova]

The Peake Uprising happened in the middle of winter.

The battles were fought in the Dornish Marches. Participants were Raynes of Castamere, Lannisters, etc. Peakes killed King Maekar, Egg's father. Then was called Great Council of 233. Bloodraven executed Aenys Blackfyre, that came to King's Landing from Tyrosh, to attend Great Council. And other Blackfyres were able to get to Westeros, with their Fourth Rebellion, only several years later, because weather conditions, prevented them from crossing Narrow Sea during winter. Probably Aenys was able to get to Westeros, because he needed to get there safely only one ship, while Bittersteel later needed to get entire fleet across.Or could be, that Aenys traveled by a dog-sledge. 

That winter lasted 6 years, 230-236, and the mini-war happened in the middle of it.

The Dance of the Dragons (129-131 AC) also was happening in winter. That winter lasted 6 years, 130-135 AC. Half of the war happened during winter.

[Stormking902]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

When Ned and Robert had to get home, it was still winter, and thus they couldn't get out of The Vale by land-route.

Distance from The Eyrie to Winterfell by land is 1535 miles, average speed of horse traved by road is 40 miles per day, thus Ned would have reached Winterfell in a bit more than 38 days. Though the way he went (thru the Vale of Arryn to The Fingers - 470 miles (speed of horse travel thru grass lands and hills is 20 miles per day) - 23,5 days + 870 nautical miles by boat thru The Bite (if it was boat with sails, then its average speed was approximately 5 nautical miles per hour, and they could have sailed 24/7, 870/5/24=7,25 days; or if it was a rowing boat, then the speed was 3-4 knots, 20-years old Ned, and his companion - professional fisherman, could have rowed 8 hours per day, 870/3,5/8=31 day) + 7,25 days or 31 day + by ship from White Harbor thru White Knife to proximity of Winterfell - 350 nautical miles (350/5/24=2,9 days) = 23,5 days + 2,9 days + 7,25 days or 31 days = 34-57,5 days.

So 38 days by road, where main job was done by horse, or close to 60 days by various routes, where he will have to either row for 8 hours per day, or to sail 24 hours per day. Obviously that land-route is quicker, safer and easier for traveling, and about 150 miles shorter, so why did he went by alternative route thru The Bite? -> Because the land exit out of The Vale was snowed in until spring.

Why did they went to Gulltown -> because they needed ships, to get out of The Vale.

Didn't LF and Sansa discussed in TWOW, that during winter, the only way to get to The Vale, or out of it, is by sea?

Jesus dude lol