Question regarding Mad King !!

[Sunny29990]

Hi, I always wondered what exactly happened to Aerys II that made him insane in the backstory. According to "The World of Ice and Fire", it said that it happened after he was tortured in Duskendale and which made a mental and physical impact on him to a large degree. The reason I ask this is because before that it was written that he was a good and prosperous ruler. So could this be the reason behind his madness of burning people alive and wildfire?

Also, if it gets explained in books 4 and 5 please don't tell me   because I have only read the 1st 3 books. I just wanted to know whether it is ever told to us. Thanks.

[shameeka]

There are speculations that Targaryens have insanity in their genes as a result of continued incest. The Duskendale incident may have been the trigger that activated the innate madness in him.

[Sunny29990]

Yes that was heavily implied...but I always wondered whether there was more to this madness than what was stated as could have been.

[kissdbyfire]

We have Jaehaerys II Targaryen on the subject.

ASoS, Daenerys VI

"Taint?" Dany bristled.

"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always dancedtoo close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

We know there's been more than a few mad Targs throughout history. Whether this is solely a consequence of heavy inbreeding or not, we can't be sure. Maybe it is, maybe it's just that the family has the gene for it (like diabetes, say), and the heavy inbreeding makes it worse. In Aerys' case it seems clear that the Duskendale incident was the straw that broke the camel's back but there were signs before that. 

[Sunny29990]

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

We have Jaehaerys II Targaryen on the subject.

ASoS, Daenerys VI

"Taint?" Dany bristled.

"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always dancedtoo close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

We know there's been more than a few mad Targs throughout history. Whether this is solely a consequence of heavy inbreeding or not, we can't be sure. Maybe it is, maybe it's just that the family has the gene for it (like diabetes, say), and the heavy inbreeding makes it worse. In Aerys' case it seems clear that the Duskendale incident was the straw that broke the camel's back but there were signs before that. 

Yes, I am beginning to think that the books make it clear on the madness part of the Targs. I also agree with your theory about the family gene thing. Great stuff to ponder over after closing the books in between

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Sunny29990 said:

Yes, I am beginning to think that the books make it clear on the madness part of the Targs. I also agree with your theory about the family gene thing. Great stuff to ponder over after closing the books in between

Here's the first paragraph on Aerys II, from the World Book:

“AERYS II

AERYS TARGARYEN, the Second of His Name, was but eighteen years of age when he ascended the Iron Throne in 262 AC, upon the death of his father, Jaehaerys, after little more than three years of rule. A handsome youth, Aerys had fought gallantly in the Stepstones during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Though not the most diligent of princes, nor the most intelligent, he had an undeniable charm that won him many friends. He was also vain, proud, and changeable, traits that made him easy prey for flatterers and lickspittles, but these flaws were not immediately apparent to most at the time of his ascension.”

So, yeah, these traits were there from the start imo. 

[Lord Varys]

The whole thing is pretty complicated. Aerys II clearly suffered from an actual mental illness. The description of his behavior at Harrenhal makes that plain for everyone to see.

But an actual mental affliction by our standards (Aerys' seems to have suffered from paranoid schizophrenia or something along that line). A 'mad monarch/prince' is not necessarily one who is actually insane by modern standards. He is merely extreme or does stuff people think are not exactly fitting for a king. Maegor, Prince Daemon, Aegon III, Daeron I, Baelor, Aegon IV, Aerys I, Rhaegel, Daeron the Drunk, Aerion Brightflame, and perhaps even Aegon V might have been considered 'mad' by various people for various reasons when only Rhaegel would have actually been suffering from a real mental affliction.

We have no indication that there was any other Targaryen showing as extreme a behavior as Aerys II after Duskendale. Whatever 'madness' other Targaryens suffered from was either no mental affliction at all, or a much milder form (like whatever Rhaegel suffered from, assuming he had real issues at all, and wasn't just very eccentric). In relation to 'mad behavior' in a broader sense many royals would have behaved extreme - be it in cruelty, public expression of emotion, politics, piety, etc.

Tyrion puts Joffrey (who is most definitely not suffering from a mental affliction) in a row with Aerys II yet there is no kinship between them whatsoever. 

And from Selmy we learn that whatever lapses Aerys II had prior to Duskendale weren't really that great or gave anyone reason for concern - which implies that 'Targaryen madness' of the sort Aerys II displayed prior to Duskendale wasn't really a big deal. Unlike many other Targaryens, Aerys II didn't show a love for cruelty or sadism prior to Duskendale. We explicitly learn that his sentences grew ever harsher only after Duskendale.

Compared to the likes of Maegor, Daemon, Aemond, and Aerion, Aerys II was pretty harmless - prior to Duskendale. 

[Bael's Bastard]

@Lord Varys

I don't think that is an entirely accurate assessment. Aerys had already demonstrated his capriciousness, paranoia, and cruelty years before Duskendale, even if Duskendale exacerbated those traits, and brought him to a whole other level of madness and brutality.

"By 270 AC, he had decided that the queen was being unfaithful to him. "The gods will not suffer a bastard to sit the Iron Throne," he told his small council; none of Rhaella's stillbirths, miscarriages, or dead princes had been his, the king proclaimed. Thereafter, he forbade the queen to leave the confines of Maegor's Holdfast and decreed that two septas would henceforth share her bed every night, "to see that she remains true to her vows."" (TWOIAF - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II)

After Aerys's remarks about Joanna's death in 273 AC: "Never a man to make a show of his emotion, Lord Tywin continued on as Hand of the King, dealing with the daily tedium of the Seven Kingdoms, while the king grew ever more erratic, violent, and suspicious." (TWOIAF - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II)

Then, after Jaehaerys's birth in death in 274 AC: "The march of the king's madness seemed to abate for a time in 274 AC, when Queen Rhaella gave birth to a son. So profound was His Grace's joy that it seemed to restore him to his old self once again...but Prince Jaehaerys died later that same year, plunging Aerys into despair. In his black rage, he decided the babe's wet nurse was to blame and had the woman beheaded. Not long after, in a change of heart, Aerys announced that Jaehaerys had been poisoned by his own mistress, the pretty young daughter of one of his household knights. The king had the girl and all her kin tortured to death. During the course of their torment, it is recorded, all confessed to the murder, though the details of their confessions were greatly at odds." (TWOIAF - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II)

We can accuse Pycelle, or the Citadel, or Yandel of exaggerating stories about Aerys, but they are what we have to work with, and they indicate he was already far from harmless before Duskendale. And I would imagine this is just the tip of the iceberg of the violence he committed between in the early-mid 270s. It just got worse after Duskendale, after which he became even most distrustful of his own family, and his Hand.

[Seams]

One of the factors in the king's state of mind was the string of deaths of his children. Rhaegar was apparently healthy but the babies born at King's Landing always seemed to die shortly after birth or at a young age. If the babies were being poisoned or smothered or something, then Aerys had reason to be paranoid. Even if they were dying of natural causes, he could have been deeply affected by grief. 

Another thing to keep in mind is this delightful tease of the "unreliable narrator" that GRRM has set up for us. The writers of TWOIAF are maesters who started compiling the history during Joffrey's reign and continued for King Tommen. They are probably motivated to put forward the Baratheon / Lannister preferred narrative that Aerys was a lunatic. If they were writing for Dany, the tone of their writing about Aerys would be completely different.

Ser Barristan seems like he would give Dany the straight story as best he can but, as he notes, he is all about swords, not words (or psychological assessment). I don't doubt that he observed a change in Aerys after Duskendale, but wouldn't any monarch be affected by an apparent coup undertaken by people who seemed loyal? (The Darklyns had more Kings Guard members than any other household, prior to the Defiance.) 

None of this is meant to excuse the violence Aerys inflicted on people he suspected of disloyalty. I think it's just important to look at him in context. Tywin killed the Reynes and Tarbecks who, he felt, had dishonored his family. No one questions his sanity. I think the author wants us to believe that Aerys was insane, but there might be some surprisingly canny and "sane" reasons for some of the things he did. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I think we can go as far back as Summerhall where a lot of the family was decimated. I mean we still don't know what happened there, if it was really the wildfire that got out of control or an attempt to get rid of the Targaryens.

It just seems like there are all these events that exacerbated him. 

I personally don't think he was all that wrong about Tywin. 

8 minutes ago, Seams said:

None of this is meant to excuse the violence Aerys inflicted on people he suspected of disloyalty. I think it's just important to look at him in context. Tywin killed the Reynes and Tarbecks who, he felt, had dishonored his family. No one questions his sanity. I think the author wants us to believe that Aerys was insane, but there might be some surprisingly canny and "sane" reasons for some of the things he did. 

I agree with this. No one questioned his sanity. Is what Aerys did at Duskendale to the Darklyns and Hollards that much different from what Tywin did to the Reynes and Tarbecks? Tywin erased two old lines without blinking an eye and allegedly smiled when Tarbeck Hall came crashing down. 

What Aerys did to the Starks was pretty savage. I think we can all agree on that, but it seems to be a direct response to Brandon's threat against the life of the crown prince. Brandon and Brandon alone should have been held accountable for that, though. And then when we start looking at Rickard's so-called southern ambitions, it could very well be that Aerys may have bought into this with the likes of Staunton and Chelsted telling him that Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the QoLaB at Harrenhal was meant as a political move and to gain the support of Winterfell. Brandon becomes the bait to lure Rickard to King's Landing and to his death. 

It doesn't help any that Aerys was surrounded with people that fed his paranoia. 

I am looking forward to finding out more about all of this from Barristan and I imagine Varys will talk about this at some point as well.

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@Lord Varys

I don't think that is an entirely accurate assessment. Aerys had already demonstrated his capriciousness, paranoia, and cruelty years before Duskendale, even if Duskendale exacerbated those traits, and brought him to a whole other level of madness and brutality.

Oh, I didn't say he was nice or sane, and it is clear that he had his mad episodes, those lapses, but prior to Duskendale he was capable of remorse and actually did atone for his sins with his walk to the Great Sept. After Duskendale this was all over.

Aerys is in no way in the same league as the truly cruel kings and princes of House Targaryen, at least not before Duskendale. It is even said that his sentences grow cruel only rather late. This man wasn't known for the kind of things Maegor, Daemon, or Aerion were known for in their teens or twenties until Duskendale. His entire obsession with fire only developed some years after Duskendale, with him first trying to hatch dragon eggs before he turned to the pyromancers' wildfire.

How the king treated his sister-wife, his court, and his friends more or less in private isn't really the measurement for madness. And, to be sure, Aerys' grand designs which never went anywhere, his stupid tax policies and notions that nearly caused trouble with the Iron Bank, etc. are likely signs of the overall character traits that would later worsen and earn him the moniker 'the Mad King'. But in the 260s and 270s those weren't all that problematic when we compare this Aerys to the other cruel/mad Targaryens. A man like Aerion or Daemon or Maegor would have never allowed a man like Tywin to play such a great (and competent) role at his court.

Aerys clearly wouldn't have declined further in 'mad territory' even without Duskendale but he may have not walked the mad paranoia path the way he did, especially not in relation to his obsession with fire and cruel punishments.

And even in that territory - the man was always more pathetic than dangerous. He chose to become a virtual prisoner in his own castle because he was so afraid that everyone was out to kill him. That is quite mad, but not nearly as dangerous as the likes of Maegor, Aerion, Aemond, or Daemon who all enjoyed cruelty and had the charisma and/or presence to go through with their plans.

Had he never gone to Harrenhal the man may have continued to be a harsh judge to every poor fellow he sat in trial over (not that many, most likely, considering he wasn't likely the most dutiful of kings) but he wouldn't have ripped his Realm apart. He may have come to a sad little end in his castle, dying of some accident or some illness. He doesn't exactly look healthy by the time Jaime kills him.

[Sunny29990]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Aerys is in no way in the same league as the truly cruel kings and princes of House Targaryen, at least not before Duskendale. It is even said that his sentences grow cruel only rather late. This man wasn't known for the kind of things Maegor, Daemon, or Aerion were known for in their teens or twenties until Duskendale. His entire obsession with fire only developed some years after Duskendale, with him first trying to hatch dragon eggs before he turned to the pyromancers' wildfire.

 

That is exactly what I always wondered. His obsession with wildfire and and other things related to burning people down. But we can say that Aegon V did the same thing at Summerhall, or who knows the truth of what exactly happened there as the records were destroyed and we can't trust Maester Yandel.

One of the theories I read a long time back on a "Dawn Age" discussion was that maybe Bloodraven warged into Aerys II to warn him against the threat against the Others. The process somehow went terribly wrong and he began to see everyone, particularly enemies around him as wights due to which he started giving orders to "Burn them all". It sounds a little far fetched though, but in GRRM's world it can be possible considering all the things we have seen and speculated.

[The hairy bear]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But an actual mental affliction by our standards (Aerys' seems to have suffered from paranoid schizophrenia or something along that line).

The Mad King Aerys is based in the Henry VI of England, and he has been diagnosed schizophrenia by modern experts. As with Aerys, Henry showed some signs of his illness early on, but otherwise he was a capable king. It wasn't until he was made prisoner and spent some years as a captive that he really went nuts.

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Sunny29990 said:

One of the theories I read a long time back on a "Dawn Age" discussion was that maybe Bloodraven warged into Aerys II to warn him against the threat against the Others. The process somehow went terribly wrong and he began to see everyone, particularly enemies around him as wights due to which he started giving orders to "Burn them all". It sounds a little far fetched though, but in GRRM's world it can be possible considering all the things we have seen and speculated.

No. No, no, no, no. Just. No. 

Going by some theories Bloodraven basically did everything, skinchanged into everyone, time-travels as I change my socks, and is responsible for pretty much everything. Preposterous. Especially when you consider one of the main points in the story Martin is telling: tough and hard decisions will have to be made, and every decision has a consequence. So, no way in 7 hells he is going to have a character be an omniscient and omnipresent puppeteer. 

[Unacosamedarisa]

9 minutes ago, Sunny29990 said:

One of the theories I read a long time back on a "Dawn Age" discussion was that maybe Bloodraven warged into Aerys II to warn him against the threat against the Others. The process somehow went terribly wrong and he began to see everyone, particularly enemies around him as wights due to which he started giving orders to "Burn them all"

"Burn them all!" is show only.

 

The Aerys of the books was a lot more... rational with his plan to burn King's Landing, if rational is the right word. Aerys wanted to leave Robert only ashes to rule, and to burn the traitors he saw all around him...

Quote

 "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors." Jaime II, ASoS  

Quote

"The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash." Jaime V, ASoS

 

[Sunny29990]

15 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

"Burn them all!" is show only.

My mistake. I got a little confused. I thought it was in the novels as well.

 

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No. No, no, no, no. Just. No. 

Going by some theories Bloodraven basically did everything, skinchanged into everyone, time-travels as I change my socks, and is responsible for pretty much everything. Preposterous. Especially when you consider one of the main points in the story Martin is telling: tough and hard decisions will have to be made, and every decision has a consequence. So, no way in 7 hells he is going to have a character be an omniscient and omnipresent puppeteer. 

I agree. Even I considered this theory too be to ridiculous. I just wanted to share it even though it seemed an impossible one.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

5 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

"The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash." Jaime V, ASoS

With regard to this quote, I wonder if this is actual madness or if there's something in Targaryen "lore" about it, ie waking dragons.

Even what happened at Summerhall, knowing the results of that, it seems like a complete fit of madness what Aegon V did there, trying to hatch the dragons, but the ritual that was used at Summerhall (sorcery, fire, blood) and what Dany did to hatch her dragons seem to be two very similar things in nature.  

What Dany did, walking into the flames of Drogo's pyre was completely insane. The difference between Dany and Aegon is that she succeeded and as far as we know, he failed.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

What Aerys did to the Starks was pretty savage. I think we can all agree on that, but it seems to be a direct response to Brandon's threat against the life of the crown prince. Brandon and Brandon alone should have been held accountable for that, though. And then when we start looking at Rickard's so-called southern ambitions, it could very well be that Aerys may have bought into this with the likes of Staunton and Chelsted telling him that Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the QoLaB at Harrenhal was meant as a political move and to gain the support of Winterfell. Brandon becomes the bait to lure Rickard to King's Landing and to his death.

I actually think that Aerys saw 'the abduction' as the public beginning of the Rhaegar-Stark conspiracy his cronies considered the coronation at Harrenhal to be proof of. An Aerys suspecting his son and heir to plot against him had no reason to come to the defense of that son. And as you say - it was Brandon's doing. Aerys had essentially nothing in hand to accuse Rickard with in that context, nor any incentive to accuse all of Brandon's companions as well as their fathers.

But if Aerys thought Brandon and Rickard and all involved with them were working with Rhaegar against, if he thought this whole abduction thing was just a ruse to confuse him and draw him out, then the treatment of Brandon and Rickard and companions makes sense - just as the later order to execute Robert and Ned makes sense. They, too, would have been part of the conspiracy and already traitors.

Aerys being as paranoid and afraid in nature makes it not very likely that neither he nor anybody at his court thought that extending the punishment to people like Robert - who had nothing to do with anything - in this context.

That could also explain Rhaegar's absence. If he was seen as a traitor, too, by his father, he couldn't possibly hang out at his court. Not to mention that this makes the entire thing much more tragic.

24 minutes ago, Sunny29990 said:

That is exactly what I always wondered. His obsession with wildfire and and other things related to burning people down. But we can say that Aegon V did the same thing at Summerhall, or who knows the truth of what exactly happened there as the records were destroyed and we can't trust Maester Yandel.

Aegon V may be considered 'mad' because of his radical reforms and also because of his wish to hatch dragon eggs, but I doubt he was mad in any clinical sense. I also don't think speculation about Summerhall makes much sense at this point. Could have been an accident. Could have been sabotage. We don't know. And we also do not know many of the characters who actually were there, nor the political situation at court and within the royal family at that point. It is pretty futile speculation.

24 minutes ago, Sunny29990 said:

One of the theories I read a long time back on a "Dawn Age" discussion was that maybe Bloodraven warged into Aerys II to warn him against the threat against the Others. The process somehow went terribly wrong and he began to see everyone, particularly enemies around him as wights due to which he started giving orders to "Burn them all". It sounds a little far fetched though, but in GRRM's world it can be possible considering all the things we have seen and speculated.

There are hints that Bloodraven tried to reach out to people. And trying to reach the king is not a bad idea in this regard. Still, if something like that happened then it would more likely take the form of dreams and visions and the like, not something like an attempt to take over his body.

What really shattered Aerys' mind and sanity clearly seems to have been Duskendale. That's something that actually took place in the story and isn't just a 'What if...' scenario.

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No. No, no, no, no. Just. No. 

Bloodraven didn't do everything but it is stupid to ignore the fact that the author himself introduced the concept of seeing and perhaps speaking through time. And we don't know how far this goes. This concept is likely going to be pretty important and one can see where Bloodraven (or Bran, through time) may have tried to influence events. The direwolves and the omen when they were found, Ned's sense of foreboding throughout AGoT, Bran and Rickon's dreams of their father's death, Jaime's weirwood dream, Jojen's green dreams, the raven making Jon Lord Commander, etc., all that one can try to lay at Bloodraven's door. In some cases it might not be correct, but in some of those cases he most likely is responsible.

27 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

The Mad King Aerys is based in the Henry VI of England, and he has been diagnosed schizophrenia by modern experts. As with Aerys, Henry showed some signs of his illness early on, but otherwise he was a capable king. It wasn't until he was made prisoner and spent some years as a captive that he really went nuts.

Not sure if I trust those diagnoses through time, but a parallel is certainly there.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Bloodraven didn't do everything but it is stupid to ignore the fact that the author himself introduced the concept of seeing and perhaps speaking through time. And we don't know how far this goes. This concept is likely going to be pretty important and one can see where Bloodraven (or Bran, through time) may have tried to influence events. The direwolves and the omen when they were found, Ned's sense of foreboding throughout AGoT, Bran and Rickon's dreams of their father's death, Jaime's weirwood dream, Jojen's green dreams, the raven making Jon Lord Commander, etc., all that one can try to lay at Bloodraven's door. In some cases it might not be correct, but in some of those cases he most likely is responsible.

That's totes cool. You think I'm stupid, and I take that as a compliment!

 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's totes cool. You think I'm stupid, and I take that as a compliment!

I didn't say you were stupid, I said it is stupid to ignore the fact that George R. R. Martin introduced the concept of time travel and time seeing or whatever we'll call what Bran and Bloodraven are capable of.

And there is no arguing with that. Ignoring any of the aspects of the series because you don't like them or you want to stress others is stupid. Even when I do that it is stupid ;-).