Question regarding Mad King !!

[The Fattest Leech]

37 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

The Mad King Aerys is based in the Henry VI of England, and he has been diagnosed schizophrenia by modern experts. As with Aerys, Henry showed some signs of his illness early on, but otherwise he was a capable king. It wasn't until he was made prisoner and spent some years as a captive that he really went nuts.

I did not know this. Thank you for sharing. 

[The Fattest Leech]

10 hours ago, Sunny29990 said:

Hi, I always wondered what exactly happened to Aerys II that made him insane in the backstory. According to "The World of Ice and Fire", it said that it happened after he was tortured in Duskendale and which made a mental and physical impact on him to a large degree. The reason I ask this is because before that it was written that he was a good and prosperous ruler. So could this be the reason behind his madness of burning people alive and wildfire?

Also, if it gets explained in books 4 and 5 please don't tell me   because I have only read the 1st 3 books. I just wanted to know whether it is ever told to us. Thanks.

Well, it could also be that the Targ madness shows itself in a variety of ways- shades of red within the white, but it is always there. This is just like GRRM and his other genetic twisting traits that he writes about in many other stories, and probably best described in the dialogue  with the great and powerful turtle. This could carryover to the idea that dragon blood was mixed with the early Valyrians and this splicing left some negative mutations. You have to give a little to get a lot. 

Also, the Mad King’s son Viserys showed signs of the same sort of Aerys madness by the time he was just 7 or 8, but I’m on my phone and can’t quote at the moment. Be forewarned, there are heavily biased sides of the fandom that reject the established Targ madness because they seem to despise the idea. 

Also also, I have noticed that GRRM gives the non-dragon Fire people wildfire in the series. Cersei, Tyrion, the Mad King, etc that have this Targ/dragon/fire fetish, but no actual dragons to carry out their plots. 

Not all fire is the same... another repeated idea of GRRM. 

[Stormking902]

Aerys wasnt even tortured at Duskendale was he? As far as I know he was taken hostage and locked up in Duskendales cold cells, It makes no sense to turture the King AT ALL but I suppose detaining the king is dumb as F as well lol. 

[Bael's Bastard]

30 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Aerys wasnt even tortured at Duskendale was he? As far as I know he was taken hostage and locked up in Duskendales cold cells, It makes no sense to turture the King AT ALL but I suppose detaining the king is dumb as F as well lol. 

@Stormking902

I am not sure we know the full extent of how Aerys was treated physically while in captivity, but it was clearly a shattering experience for the already unstable king, who suspected that his Hand Tywin and his son and heir Rhaegar had intended to get him killed.

"Captivity at Duskendale had shattered whatever sanity had remained to Aerys II Targaryen. From that day forth, the king's madness reigned unchecked, growing worse with every passing year. The Darklyns had dared lay hands upon his person, shoving him roughly, stripping him of his royal raiment, even daring to strike him. After his release, King Aerys would no longer allow himself to be touched, even by his own servants. Uncut and unwashed, his hair grew ever longer and more tangled, whilst his fingernails lengthened and thickened into grotesque yellow talons. He forbade any blade in his presence save for the swords carried by the knights of his Kingsguard, sworn to protect him. His judgments became ever harsher and crueler.

Once safely returned to King's Landing, His Grace refused to leave the Red Keep for any cause and remained a virtual prisoner in his own castle for the next four years, during which time he grew ever more wary of those around him, Tywin Lannister in particular. His suspicions extended even to his own son and heir. Prince Rhaegar, he was convinced, had conspired with Tywin Lannister to have him slain at Duskendale. They had planned to storm the town walls so that Lord Darklyn would put him to death, opening the way for Rhaegar to mount the Iron Throne and marry Lord Tywin's daughter." (TWOIAF - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II)

[Faydra]

Just like with Cersei, I believe that Varys feed him reasons to be paranoid to clear the path for prince Aegon (Blackfyre). The genetic factor helped too. 

[Megorova]

I think, that when Aerys was held captive at Duskendale, he was sexually abused, and got pox/syphilis from one of his rapists. His continued mental degradation was result of brain damage, caused by progressing syphilis.

I got this idea, based on:

1. His behaviour at Harrenhal - crying and laughing without reason, could be a symptom of brain damage, caused by syphilis;

2. He ordered to kill all people at Duskendale, even a 10 years old boy, so whatever those people did to Aerys, was something very personal, and rape is personal.

When Aerys was saved, he not only ordered to kill all Darklyns, he also ordered this - "Lord Denys's wife, Lady Serala, had her tongue and womanly parts torn out, after which she was burned alive. As cruel as her death was, her enemies believe she should have suffered worse.^[1][3] " <- this is personal.

"Aerys was shoved roughly, stripped of his royal raiment, and even struck.^[1]" <- if they dared to strip and hit their King, in public, when they just captured him, imagine what they dared to do, behind closed doors, when they had him under their control for 6 months.

3. After Duskendale, Aerys was afraid of getting out of Red Keep, seems that he had agoraphobia. And agoraphobia could be result of great stress. Obviously, that even if Aerys wasn't raped at Duskendale, still, his captivity, that lasted 6 months, was very stressful.

Though there are other possible indications, that he was raped - after Duskendale, he didn't let anyone to cut his hair, nor nails.

Getting a haircut is a long and fairly intimate process, during which the barber is standing very close to his "client", constantly touching him, and breathing on him. And when manicurist is cutting nails, for that he needs to held still his client's hand, to "restrain" it.

So maybe Aerys couldn't bear to let someone restrain his hands, to cut his nails, nor to be physically close to someone for a long time, which was needed for getting a haircut.

4. There are sexually transmitted diseases in ASOIAF.

For example, Aegon IV got a pox/syphilis from the brothel, that he visited after death of his 7th mistress;

5. Supposedly Aerys was based on King Henry VI.

Previously many historians speculated, that Henry's madness was caused by syphilis. Though this theory was dismissed, not that long ago, when scientists analyzed Henry's remnants. Though when GRRM was writting first books of ASOIAF-series, that theory wasn't dismissed yet. So could be, that GRRM thought, that Henry did had syphilis, and thus, based on him King Aerys, also had this disease.

Maybe Rhaegar didn't rebelled against his father, because he knew, that Aerys wasn't mad, he was ill.

[Bael's Bastard]

5 minutes ago, Faydra said:

Just like with Cersei, I believe that Varys feed him reasons to be paranoid to clear the path for prince Aegon (Blackfyre). The genetic factor helped too. 

Varys had been whispering in Aerys's ear for at least a few years by the time the real Aegon was born, let alone by the time the possibly-younger AeGriff was born. Rhaegar and Elia were wed in 280, and Rhaenys was born the same year. If Tyrion is correct about his assumption that AeGriff is fifteen or sixteen, he might not have even been born or even conceived yet at the time of the Sack of King's Landing, It will be interesting to find out, assuming we do, what Varys's plots against House Targaryen looked like before they had AeGriff to work with. 

[Bael's Bastard]

I don't think such abuse is necessary to explain Aerys's response, though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he was treated worse than the accounts have described. Tywin had already threatened to kill every man, woman, and child if they did not surrender, and the king was not going to be perceived as being outdone by his Hand. He had only traveled to Duskendale in the first place because Tywin advised him not to, and he suspected Tywin of intending to get him killed once he was in captivity.

"Those who knew the resolve of Tywin Lannister knew better. Instead, the Hand's heart grew harder, and he sent Duskendale's lord one final demand for surrender. Should he refuse again, Lord Tywin promised, he would take the town by storm and put every man, woman, and child within to the sword. (The tale, oft told, that Lord Tywin sent his bard to deliver the ultimatum, and commanded him to sing "The Rains of Castamere" for Lord Denys and the Lace Serpent is a colorful detail that is, alas, unsupported by the records)."

[Dorian Martell's son]

 

 

9 hours ago, Sunny29990 said:

Yes that was heavily implied...but I always wondered whether there was more to this madness than what was stated as could have been.

"Hey  have a question about a thing"
"Here is your answer"
"I don't want that one"  

[Faydra]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Varys had been whispering in Aerys's ear for at least a few years by the time the real Aegon was born, let alone by the time the possibly-younger AeGriff was born. Rhaegar and Elia were wed in 280, and Rhaenys was born the same year. If Tyrion is correct about his assumption that AeGriff is fifteen or sixteen, he might not have even been born or even conceived yet at the time of the Sack of King's Landing, It will be interesting to find out, assuming we do, what Varys's plots against House Targaryen looked like before they had AeGriff to work with. 

I assumed his plans concerned Griff's (Targ) parent at the time.

[Bael's Bastard]

16 minutes ago, Faydra said:

I assumed his plans concerned Griff's (Targ) parent at the time.

Who do you think that would have been? The Blackfyre male line came to an end with the death of Maelys I Blackfyre in 260 AC, so by 277-283 AC, when Varys was brought to Westeros by King Aerys, there was no male-line Blackfyre to put on the throne. It would either have to be a female Blackfyre, a male from a female line, or a Targaryen from a line passed over for Aegon V and his line (such as a male line descendant of Aerion, or a female line descendant of Rhaegel or Daeron).

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@Stormking902

I am not sure we know the full extent of how Aerys was treated physically while in captivity, but it was clearly a shattering experience for the already unstable king, who suspected that his Hand Tywin and his son and heir Rhaegar had intended to get him killed.

What we know indicate he was treated badly in the sense that he wasn't treated the way a king could expected to be treated by a subject, but there is no indication that he had to live through physical torture.

But if we see this in perspective and consider that Aerys II didn't exactly have the stablest or healthiest of minds it is pretty clear that this would have been a massive trauma for a man of his character and condition.

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Also, the Mad King’s son Viserys showed signs of the same sort of Aerys madness by the time he was just 7 or 8, but I’m on my phone and can’t quote at the moment. Be forewarned, there are heavily biased sides of the fandom that reject the established Targ madness because they seem to despise the idea. 

That is Selmy, but he isn't exactly a physician. The man doesn't want to serve another Aerys II, and this is understandable, but even if Viserys III had inherited some of his father's traits that doesn't mean he has to get as bad as Aerys II. The Viserys we meet is a pitiful creature, but he is light years away from his father's madness - no laughing/cursing/weeping, no obsession with fire, etc.

59 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Who do you think that would have been? The Blackfyre male line came to an end with the death of Maelys I Blackfyre in 260 AC, so by 277-283 AC, when Varys was brought to Westeros by King Aerys, there was no male-line Blackfyre to put on the throne. It would either have to be a female Blackfyre, a male from a female line, or a Targaryen from a line passed over for Aegon V and his line (such as a male line descendant of Aerion, or a female line descendant of Rhaegel or Daeron).

The fact that Illyrio Mopatis and the Golden Company are nowhere to be seen during Robert's Rebellion implies there was no plan at this point. If there had been, they could have played the Teague card - hiring sellswords, becoming the third faction in a civil war, and defeat everybody else when they have weakened themselves - the same card they want to play now.

[The Fattest Leech]

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That is Selmy, but he isn't exactly a physician. The man doesn't want to serve another Aerys II, and this is understandable, but even if Viserys III had inherited some of his father's traits that doesn't mean he has to get as bad as Aerys II. The Viserys we meet is a pitiful creature, but he is light years away from his father's madness - no laughing/cursing/weeping, no obsession with fire, etc.

Well, no one really is a "real" physician in this world. Even the maesters are relegated to just basic means and methods not unlike the woods witches and such for most all cases of anything. Genetics in this world is simplified greatly and that is all necessary to keep the story moving instead of stagnating on unnecessary side plots (not much question there).

One thing that Selmy is, though, is a devout Targ loyalist. Every time Daenerys goes to him for information, he always stops short of describing how mad her father was or how Rhaegar did not win every tourney/battle/etc. It is Dany who pushes for more information. Selmy is delicate with his information which means that him just saying about Vis what he did really implies he was also being delicate.

Also, Viserys was like his father in many ways. I don't have time to list them all here now (I have a movie to get to), but here are a few:

1. Viserys is obsessed with fire in the form of the iron throne- which was built on blood and fire, bow or burn. Taking that throne is like a madness in him, the same way that GRRM describes a "bloodlust" in his other stories. GRRM has already said that throne is a twisted sign of oppression, so taking from that those who crave and desire the throne are not in their right minds themselves (think A Song for Lya, among a few other tales )
2. Vis is also a racist the way his father was
   • Daenerys said nothing. She had always assumed that she would wed Viserys when she came of age. For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men. Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian.
     • just incase anyone is not sure, but the phrase "beast of the field", or similary referring to humans as such, is a bit of racists rhetoric that was used in the biblical times. Too much to go in to about that now.
   • "The princess must be presented to the dosh khaleen …"
     "The crones, yes," her brother interrupted, "and there's to be some mummer's show of a prophecy for the whelp in her belly, you told me. What is that to me? I'm tired of eating horsemeat and I'm sick of the stink of these savages." He sniffed at the wide, floppy sleeve of his tunic, where it was his custom to keep a sachet. It could not have helped much. The tunic was filthy. All the silk and heavy wools that Viserys had worn out of Pentos were stained by hard travel and rotted from sweat.
   • When Prince Rhaegar and his new wife chose to take up residence on Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep, rumors flew thick and fast across the Seven Kingdoms. Some claimed that the crown prince was planning to depose his father and seize the Iron Throne for himself, whilst others said that King Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys heir in his place. Nor did the birth of King Aerys's first grandchild, a girl named Rhaenys, born on Dragonstone in 280 AC, do aught to reconcile father and son. When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish."
3. And Vis also starts to physically hurt Dany as Aerys does to Rhaella when he torture-rapes her after he does his burnings. Whether that was "allowed" in this world is irrelevant, the "king" was physically hurting his sister... sister-wife almost as Dany once assumed she would be to Viserys.
   • Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."
4. And they did both share paranoia. Aerys for the variety of reasons being discussed, and ironically Aerys was paranoid over the life of Viserys himself as a baby, and Vis and his "usurpers knives" paranoia.

Just going to add part of the convo about Vis below for others to re-read if they want.

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI

"You helped win this city," she repeated stubbornly. "And you have served me well in the past. Ser Barristan saved me from the Titan's Bastard, and from the Sorrowful Man in Qarth. Ser Jorah saved me from the poisoner in Vaes Dothrak, and again from Drogo's bloodriders after my sun-and-stars had died." So many people wanted her dead, sometimes she lost count. "And yet you lied, deceived me, betrayed me." She turned to Ser Barristan. "You protected my father for many years, fought beside my brother on the Trident, but you abandoned Viserys in his exile and bent your knee to the Usurper instead. Why? And tell it true."

 

"Some truths are hard to hear. Robert was a . . . a good knight . . . chivalrous, brave . . . he spared my life, and the lives of many others . . . Prince Viserys was only a boy, it would have been years before he was fit to rule, and . . . forgive me, my queen, but you asked for truth . . . even as a child, your brother Viserys oft seemed to be his father's son, in ways that Rhaegar never did."

 

"His father's son?" Dany frowned. "What does that mean?"

 

The old knight did not blink. "Your father is called 'the Mad King' in Westeros. Has no one ever told you?"

 

"Viserys did." The Mad King. "The Usurper called him that, the Usurper and his dogs." The Mad King. "It was a lie." (<- denial)

 

"Why ask for truth," Ser Barristan said softly, "if you close your ears to it?" He hesitated, then continued. "I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that I'd joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not . . ."

[Lord Varys]

50 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, no one really is a "real" physician in this world. Even the maesters are relegated to just basic means and methods not unlike the woods witches and such for most all cases of anything. 

They are both better physicians than Selmy, though. George's maesters are not as ignorant as medieval 'physicians'. They are capable to heal a decent number of illnesses - although not Aerys II's mental illness, whatever it may have been. 

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Selmy is delicate with his information which means that him just saying about Vis what he did really implies he was also being delicate.

Nope, that's not implied there, because Dany never asks Selmy about what exactly Selmy means when he compares young Viserys to Aerys II. We don't know what that means. What we do know, though, is that young Aerys wasn't even remotely the way post-Duskendale Aerys was.

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Viserys is obsessed with fire in the form of the iron throne- which was built on blood and fire, bow or burn. Taking that throne is like a madness in him, the same way that GRRM describes a "bloodlust" in his other stories. GRRM has already said that throne is a twisted sign of oppression, so taking from that those who crave and desire the throne are not in their right minds themselves (think A Song for Lya, among a few other tales )

That is a weird way of saying Viserys is obsessed with fire. He is not obsessed with fire the way his royal father is. Even if I took that 'symbolic obsession' seriously (which I cannot) it is still not the same as Aerys II'obsession with fire. And that constitutes a difference.

Besides, what Viserys III wants is not the Iron Throne. He isn't even focused on that all that much. He wants back home, and he lists many a place in the Seven Kingdoms which is his by right, not just the Iron Throne.

As to racism:

Being racist makes you just a racist, not mad. It might make one not a nice person, but it tells you nothing about their mental health, no? Besides, no indication that Viserys held such opinions as a child or that Selmy cares about Targaryen exceptionalism all that much.

But I've to correct you on the racism thing there. Viserys doesn't speak about races, he only speaks about his family, the blood of the dragon. Since the Doom the Targaryens are the only dragonlords left, and one family doesn't constitute a 'race'. He is an elitist aristocrat to the highest degree, unwilling to intermarry with 'lesser blood' but he is just driving things to extremes all royalty and nobility in Westeros and the real world did - marrying their own. They wouldn't be nobility and royalty if they married their scullions and peasants, no?

Viserys injuring Dany:

How is that relevant in relation to Selmy judging boy Viserys? Have we any indication Selmy even knew how Viserys treated Daenerys?

But as such there is no indication that Viserys treated Dany the way he did for the same reason Aerys treated his sister-wife the way he did. For one, there are hints that Viserys loved his sister very much, being his only surviving relation. He was obsessed with her because he didn't want to share her or sell her to those savages. But he had no other choice. Apparently Illyrio had to prevent him from deflowering Dany.

And the example you give, shows what Viserys was afraid of - that Dany lose/never understand who and what she was. A Targaryen becoming a sailor must be a horrible idea for a man who remembered what it meant to be a prince.

Aerys and Rhaella never liked each other at all. And while Aerys treated his queen like shit before, he only started physically abusing her while he had become completely nuts. 

The paranoia thing is a parallel, but we don't know to what degree Viserys is justified there. But he most definitely shows signs of being a little bit unhinged in relation to people wanting to kill him. But keep in mind how many dwarfs were killed for the promise for a lordship. Even without Robert hiring assassins, it might be enough that people knew the king wanted Viserys and his sister dead for them to get into ugly situations in this or that Free City.

If Viserys resembles his father to some degree in later life it might just be strain and the stress of his shitty life. Nobody ever said Viserys was a great or very stable person, but he clearly isn't the same kind of nutcase his father was at the end.

And my point just is that Selmy sits on a very high horse branding young Viserys as being a lot like his father when Aerys II was, for the greatest part of his life, not exactly the maddest or evilest of men. And again - there is no clear line from being like young Aerys II/Viserys III to the madman Aerys II was after Duskendale. If it were, then the entire Duskendale episode has no purpose in the framework of the story.

A Viserys being cared for and trained by a man like Barristan Selmy could have become a much better man. Perhaps no Rhaegar or Aegon V or Aegon the Conqueror or Jaehaerys the Conciliator, but one cannot have everything, no?

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

16 hours ago, Sunny29990 said:

Hi, I always wondered what exactly happened to Aerys II that made him insane in the backstory. According to "The World of Ice and Fire", it said that it happened after he was tortured in Duskendale and which made a mental and physical impact on him to a large degree. The reason I ask this is because before that it was written that he was a good and prosperous ruler. So could this be the reason behind his madness of burning people alive and wildfire?

Also, if it gets explained in books 4 and 5 please don't tell me   because I have only read the 1st 3 books. I just wanted to know whether it is ever told to us. Thanks.

Post-traumatic stress disorder.  He was imprisoned and tortured at Duskendale for a lengthy period.  

Aerys was the son of a house which had ruled the seven kingdoms for three hundred years.  He was expecting the protection of guest rights during his visit to Duskendale.  He was instead taken captive and his escorts killed.  That would scramble most people without psychiatric help and proper medication.

[Sunny29990]

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

"Hey  have a question about a thing"
"Here is your answer"
"I don't want that one" 

I am not saying that I don't want the answer which is implied in the books and the Targ history of madness. I am just saying that there may be more to it than meets the eye

[The Fattest Leech]

Well LV, here we are again. We haven't chatted in a while.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They are both better physicians than Selmy, though. George's maesters are not as ignorant as medieval 'physicians'. They are capable to heal a decent number of illnesses - although not Aerys II's mental illness, whatever it may have been. 

This is kinda what I was saying, and there is no need to split hairs to appear seemingly more "correct". George once said that the two things he wanted his maesters to be was clean and have a good knowledge of flowers. Maesters know no more or less than a wood's witch, and both can heal a number of physical illnesses.

Mental illness is another case all together, and Martin has given us the reason why for certain people/families. Maesters do not have the prescription chemical-type meds that we have now, nor do we ever see any mental aptitude tests being performed or discussed. The maester diagnosis is still related to superstition and prescribing elixirs to treat the "off balance humours", bad diet/too many sweets, etc as maester Toman shows us readers (as just one example).

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Nope, that's not implied there, because Dany never asks Selmy about what exactly Selmy means when he compares young Viserys to Aerys II. We don't know what that means. What we do know, though, is that young Aerys wasn't even remotely the way post-Duskendale Aerys was.

If you read my post again, you will see how I explained I did not have enough time to dig up all of the book quotes to my references.

They are there.

And the entire point of the comparison between Aerys and his son is not an exact age to age, month to month comparison. No, there isn't time or necessity in the books to do that. Instead, Martin hits every single beat to show the reader that Viserys is his father's son.

To claim otherwise (in general, not necessarily you, LV) or maybe to claim that Viserys "would grow out of it" as is often seen around this current upside-down forum is treading deeply in to "What IF" thread territory = fan fiction.

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That is a weird way of saying Viserys is obsessed with fire. He is not obsessed with fire the way his royal father is. Even if I took that 'symbolic obsession' seriously (which I cannot) it is still not the same as Aerys II'obsession with fire. And that constitutes a difference.

I know you don't because you have said and demonstrated time and again that you like your stories linear. However, the words I chose for the iron throne and such come from the author, so If one chooses to ignore these bits, then they are missing an amazing amount of subtext that has been written in to the story.

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~snipped a bit~

As to the racism, I am not going to include the modern day tests that have shown a pattern of dysfunction in those that are racist, because this is a fantasy story and the author uses his own rules.

That said, you completely missed the point of the "beasts of the field" comment by Viserys and myself. Honestly, if I even start to go down this road with you here it would be rather off-topic, but don't kid yourself if you think George is making a master race to take over as the "rightful" anything.

Once again we disagree on many points, which is fine, but I am no longer in the habit of creating 5-mile long quote/requote posts. People ask questions, get an answer, hate that answer, so prod again for something more to their personal liking.

By the way, have you read Closing Time? Just found it and received on old copy in the mail the other day. TONS of Bloodraven/ice magic imagery prototype stuff in there, and this goes back to 1975. Good stuff. Thought you might find it interesting. Peace out

[Faydra]

11 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Who do you think that would have been? The Blackfyre male line came to an end with the death of Maelys I Blackfyre in 260 AC, so by 277-283 AC, when Varys was brought to Westeros by King Aerys, there was no male-line Blackfyre to put on the throne. It would either have to be a female Blackfyre, a male from a female line, or a Targaryen from a line passed over for Aegon V and his line (such as a male line descendant of Aerion, or a female line descendant of Rhaegel or Daeron).

Yes, the male Blackfyre line was extinguished. I personally subscribe to this theory which sees possibility of Aegon being Illyrio and Serra's son (and Serra a Blackfyre). 

 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is kinda what I was saying, and there is no need to split hairs to appear seemingly more "correct". George once said that the two things he wanted his maesters to be was clean and have a good knowledge of flowers. Maesters know no more or less than a wood's witch, and both can heal a number of physical illnesses.

From what we know, maesters do also conduct surgery (no idea how good they are at that, or how much they can do that way, but they do study physiology back at the Citadel). Woods witches don't do that kind of thing - which doesn't mean they are not also as good (or perhaps even better in certain fields) than the average maester in the potion department. 

But that isn't really the point. The point is that Selmy is not even a physician by Westerosi standards. His judgment of the mental health of a man he only knew as a boy is not necessarily very sound - and he may be actually biased against Viserys III for two reasons. One because he feels guilty to have served Aerys II for as long as he did (and he actually indicates as much in his POV) and second because he feels guilty and has to justify the fact that he accepted Robert's pardon and served him and his queen until it became no longer convenient for him. One assumes he could not look in the mirror if he accepted the fact that he actually should have abandoned Robert at the first opportunity to search out Viserys and Dany.

Declaring Viserys III 'unfit to rule' or 'bad king material' from afar helps a lot to justify his own actions. 

One sees this kind of 'nonsensical medical assessment' when Prince Maegor, Aerion's son, is dismissed as king by the Great Council but other close relations of Aerion's (his brother and nephews) are not. If certain streaks run in the family then they can skip generations, etc. Aerion's bloodline isn't more or less 'tainted' than Aegon V's.

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And the entire point of the comparison between Aerys and his son is not an exact age to age, month to month comparison. No, there isn't time or necessity in the books to do that. Instead, Martin hits every single beat to show the reader that Viserys is his father's son.

Rhaegar is his father's son, too, you know. All children are their father's children. The point here is just that Viserys III is not, in fact, his father's son in the sense that he is as mad as this man is. In fact, no Targaryen we have met at this point was as mad as this guy. No Targaryen was as obsessed with fire, as paranoid, as irrational, or as unhinged as this man was after Duskendale. And it is Duskendale that's largely to blame for that.

Viserys III is a different person, one who might resemble his father more than Rhaegar did, but he actually lived better through the stress and strain his life put him through than Aerys II lived through Duskendale.

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To claim otherwise (in general, not necessarily you, LV) or maybe to claim that Viserys "would grow out of it" as is often seen around this current upside-down forum is treading deeply in to "What IF" thread territory = fan fiction.

I never said Viserys III had or would grow out of anything. I said Aerys II did grow into the level of madness he displayed at the end of his life, and there was an event - Duskendale - largely to blame for the turn this madness took. Viserys III didn't have the same experience as his father.

And Viserys III and Aerys II aren't even remotely in the sadism/cruelty territory as Aerion, Daemon, Aemond, or Maegor. Viserys abuses Dany, yes, but that's part of their fucked-up and complicated sibling relationship.  He doesn't run and randomly assaults women, whips servants, tries to strangle messengers, or tries to kill anyone who displeases him. All Viserys wants is to get back home and be treated as his due to his station and birth. He isn't even very ambitious or power hungry. He just wants what he feels is his - just as Robb and Sansa and Bran want Winterfell back after Theon and the Boltons stole it from them.

Vice versa, Aerys didn't depict any sadistic tendencies at all prior to Duskendale. He was an asshole and he could be mean at times, and when he had his mad lapses he accused other people of things they didn't do, and had them tortured and killed. But he was capable of remorse afterwards, and he didn't display this kind of behavior when he was his 'normal self'. It is explicitly mentioned that his sentences got only cruel very late in his reign.

If you compare that to Joff, Maegor, Aerion, Daemon, etc. then Aerys II and Viserys III are light years away from those people. Those people all have strong sadistic tendencies whereas Aerys' cruelty is fueled by the fear that everything is out there to get him.

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I know you don't because you have said and demonstrated time and again that you like your stories linear. However, the words I chose for the iron throne and such come from the author, so If one chooses to ignore these bits, then they are missing an amazing amount of subtext that has been written in to the story.

It is still a different level. Aerys II is actually obsessed with literal fire, no? And Viserys III is not. Instead he actually wants to sell the dragon eggs, which means he is as far away from 'fire' as you can possibly be, not even realizing that he has the source of Targaryen power in his hands yet is not only incapable of making use of them but doesn't even understand what those dragon eggs could mean.

And again - Viserys doesn't depict a strong obsession with the Iron Throne.

And the throne is certainly a symbol of a certain type of power, that much is clear.

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That said, you completely missed the point of the "beasts of the field" comment by Viserys and myself. Honestly, if I even start to go down this road with you here it would be rather off-topic, but don't kid yourself if you think George is making a master race to take over as the "rightful" anything.

That may be racist language, but Viserys is not talking as a racist here, because he doesn't speak about races. There is his family and kin - people that are worthy to marry him and his sister - and there is everybody else who has lesser blood. That isn't racism.

This doesn't mean racism isn't a thing in this world. It is, very much so, if you look at TWoIaF and all the racist speculation about various species of human beings and the like.

But Aerys II and Viserys III preferring their children to not marry people they are not closely related to does make them racist. It makes them elitist aristocrats. That certainly is as bad as being racist, but it is a different thing. And again - the Targaryens are only the icing on the cake of elitism there. Petyr Baelish is not good enough for Lysa Tully, a noble bastard is not good enough for Princess Arianne, a Martell is not good enough for Cersei or Jaime Lannister, etc.

This isn't a world where nobility marry commoners. If Bran wanted to marry one of the Winterfell serving women his parents most likely would get a heart attack.

[Dorian Martell's son]

11 hours ago, Sunny29990 said:

I am not saying that I don't want the answer which is implied in the books and the Targ history of madness. I am just saying that there may be more to it than meets the eye

If isn't in the books it isn't anywhere