"Jaime Lannister sends his regards"

[Valyrian Lance]

It is definitely possible that Jaime may have inferred that Roose had switched sides. A lot can happen off-page. He may have also been oblivious, though I agree that he should have been able to riddle it out. I remember no clue in the text after the deed, either way. There is this bit as they ate.

Quote

"Lannister friendship could mean much." Jaime thought he knew the game they were playing now. But does the wench know as well? He dare not look to see.

"I am not certain you are the sort of friends a wise man would want." Roose Bolton beckoned to the boy. "Elmar, carve our guests a slice off the roast."

 

[MostlyMoody]

2 hours ago, Castellan said:

There is a flaw in the POV argument - not all characters reveal everything they infer (Tyrion in his wandering in Essos) or know (Ned doesn't reveal exactly what happened at the TOJ in his POV). 

Not sure what exactly you are referring to with Tyrion, but Ned does recall what happened at the TOJ and does so frequently, apart from the crucial plot elements (the childbirth) and the exact details and situation between him and his sister. There is a reason for that - it's a painful, suppressed memory for Ned.

Whereas with Jaime we don't even get a hint or an inkling in his thoughts that would at least point in the vague direction of him knowing about the Red Wedding. All we have is his blasé, snarky line about sending regards to Robb.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Unless you want to argue that Roose wants to be a martyr and get the same gift that Robb gave Karstark.  Roose will have to make certain of a Stark defeat because he can't return to the north after letting Jaime go, not while the Starks remain the power house in the north.  

I don't want to argue anything. Roose explains why he must send Jaime back to Tywin. He actually explains it in great detail. 

[Clegane'sPup]

18 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

For Roose to let Jaime go instead of taking him back to Robb is a betrayal of the Starks.  Roose knew it.  Jaime knew it.  Both would also know Roose will be executed when Robb finds out.  It should be obvious and it is.  Roose betrayed Robb.  How does one survive after betraying their boss?  By taking down the boss.  

The details of the red wedding will have been top secret.  It's not something Roose would flippantly share with anyone.  But Jaime would have known that something was up.  Something was cooking to use an old expression.  Tywin and Roose are the cooks and they're preparing a nasty dish for the Starks.   

Ummmmmm, I'm not understanding why you are explaining something to me that I already know.

I agreed with another poster and I typed:

Agree. Jaime at this point in time does not know. He may have surmised that there was some communication going on betwixt Tywin & Roose.

The reason I agreed with the other poster is because the other poster typed:

No, Jaime absolutely did not know about anything regarding the RW and Daddy Dearest's machinations.

 

 

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Allow me to take you to a rather interesting scene between Roose Bolton and Jaime Lannister.  This scene took place at Harrenhal.  Roose Bolton is sending Jaime on to his father.  

"The Trident is in flood.  Even at ruby ford the crossing will be difficult.  You will give my warm regards to your father."  (Roose Bolton)

"So long as you give mine to Robb Stark"  (Jaime Lannister)

This to me is proof of Jaime Lannister having knowledge of the Red Wedding ahead of time.  Roose Bolton crossed that proverbial bridge of no return.  He betrayed Robb Stark in front of witnesses by allowing Jaime Lannister to leave.  Robb Stark has to die now and the Starks have to lose the north.  Roose Bolton is a dead man if the Starks should retain their lordship of the north.  Roose and Jaime both knew that Robb and the Starks will have to lose or else Roose Bolton is a dead man.  His betrayal will come out and the Starks will be less than appreciative.  

The following is a Cat POV of the Red Wedding.

What do you think?

I think you hit it on the head:

He knows that Roose is going to betray Robb because otherwise he (Roose) would not be committing the treasonous act of returning Jaime to Tywin rather than bringing him back to Robb as ordered.

So Jaime knows that the only way Roose can get out of this predicament alive is that he has to kill Robb, and since he knows Roose is about to leave for the Twins to attend Edmure's wedding, and Robb will be there as well, Jaime is sharp enough to know that it will probably go down at the Twins and that Tywin is most likely pulling the strings here.

But no, Jaime was not informed of any of these plans ahead of time. How could he be? He was a prisoner at Riverrun, then on the run with Brienne, then Hoat's captive and then Roose's.

[Ser Leftwich]

“Lannister friendship could mean much.” Jaime thought he knew the game they were playing now. But does the wench know as well? He dare not look to see. - Jaime 5 - ASoS -

Jaime says he understand what game is going on, but not likely the details. Jaime is there about a week. Perhaps they dined again, without Brienne.

There is also the metaphor of a "trout" meal as opposed to a "wolf" at the same dinner. It is weak, and before Jaime thinks the above, but he seems to get it.

 

[Eli Cross]

Jaime knew the Starks were being set up but the intricate parts of the way it will happen was not plotted until Lothar and Roose came together.  Roose simply assured Jaime that they will assassinate Robb Stark at the Twins without giving away the details of the plan.  He can say Robb will be killed at the wedding without revealing too much.  

[kissdbyfire]

10 hours ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

Jaime knew the Starks were being set up but the intricate parts of the way it will happen was not plotted until Lothar and Roose came together.  Roose simply assured Jaime that they will assassinate Robb Stark at the Twins without giving away the details of the plan.  He can say Robb will be killed at the wedding without revealing too much.  

The RW had already been planned in all its nefarious details by the time Roose and Jaime have their convo.

“Lord Bolton’s little smile paid another visit to his lips. “You speak boldly for a man who needs help to break his bread. My guards are all around us, I remind you.”
“All around us, and half a league away.” Jaime glanced down the vast length of the hall. “By the time they reach us, you’ll be as dead as Aerys.”
“’Tis scarcely chivalrous to threaten your host over his own cheese and olives,” the Lord of the Dreadfort scolded. “In the north, we hold the laws of hospitality sacred still.”

 

[The WolfSpider]

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jaime doesn't even know Robb broke his promise to Frey and married Jeyne Westerling, it's impossible for him to know about the plans for the RW. And not only he asks about it when informed that Edmure is to wed a Frey, but we have his thoughts on it as well. 

But once told isn't there now a link between Bolton & Frey?

[Victor Newman]

The people who resists the idea seem to like both Jaime and the Starks.  They're having trouble accepting the suggestion that Jaime knew there was a plot by Roose, his father, and Walder to kill Robb.  

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Captain Dietrich said:

The people who resists the idea seem to like both Jaime and the Starks.  They're having trouble accepting the suggestion that Jaime knew there was a plot by Roose, his father, and Walder to kill Robb.  

I suggest reading the books and then posting your insights into it. Or just read the pertinent chapter, I am sure the whole thing will become very clear, since it's literally spelled out w/ the cherry on top that is having Jaime's thoughts on the matter. 

 

 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I suggest reading the books and then posting your insights into it. Or just read the pertinent chapter, I am sure the whole thing will become very clear, since it's literally spelled out w/ the cherry on top that is having Jaime's thoughts on the matter. 

 

 

I seem to recall the chapters in ASOS where Jaime finds out about both the Red Wedding and then The Purple Wedding.  He seemed shocked, while he knew Roose was up to something, it seemed apparent that Jaime didn't really give much thought to the particulars of it.  I remember him trying to comfort Brienne and being frustrated at his failure to do so.  Then, of course, his double whammy of shock at the Purple Wedding, iirc, he took that much better, LOL, minus the Tyrion bit.  I'd have to reread to those sections to check out the particulars. 

[kissdbyfire]

46 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I seem to recall the chapters in ASOS where Jaime finds out about both the Red Wedding and then The Purple Wedding.  He seemed shocked, while he knew Roose was up to something, it seemed apparent that Jaime didn't really give much thought to the particulars of it.  I remember him trying to comfort Brienne and being frustrated at his failure to do so.  Then, of course, his double whammy of shock at the Purple Wedding, iirc, he took that much better, LOL, minus the Tyrion bit.  I'd have to reread to those sections to check out the particulars. 

Yeah, that's pretty much it for the later chapters in Storm. And in his very first convo w/ Roose we see through what Jaime says and thinks that he knew nothing about the RW beforehand. 

[Ser Leftwich]

She never met Robb Stark, yet her grief for him runs deeper than mine for Joff. Or perhaps it was Lady Catelyn she mourned. They had been at Brindlewood when they had that news, from a red-faced tub of a knight named Ser Bertram Beesbury, whose arms were three beehives on a field striped black and yellow. A troop of Lord Piper’s men had passed through Brindlewood only yesterday, Beesbury told them, rushing to King’s Landing beneath a peace banner of their own. “With the Young Wolf dead Piper saw no point to fighting on. His son is captive at the Twins.” Brienne gaped like a cow about to choke on her cud, so it fell to Jaime to draw out the tale of the Red Wedding.

“Every great lord has unruly bannermen who envy him his place,” he told her afterward. “My father had the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Tyrells have the Florents, Hoster Tully had Walder Frey. Only strength keeps such men in their place. The moment they smell weakness . . . during the Age of Heroes, the Boltons used to flay the Starks and wear their skins as cloaks.” She looked so miserable that Jaime almost found himself wanting to comfort her. - Jaime 6

- Jaime seems rather unfazed by the news. Though this is a flashback to when they heard the news. -

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

Jaime is unfazed because he is Jaime. Seriously, since he didn't even know Robb had broken his marriage pact w/ Frey at a point when the Red Wedding is all planned and ready to "go" is proof enough that he wasn't in on it. 

[Dofs]

I am not sure what is there to argue, we literally see the whole dialogue of Jaime with Roose and Jaime commenting it in his thoughts. From the way Roose handled Jaime, Jaime understood that Roose is switching sides and Roose then flat out explains why to Jaime. And that's it, that's all Jaime knew. How exactly would that happen Jaime didn't know and didn't seem to care. The final exchange where Jaime asks to send his regards to Robb is Jaime simply joking based on Roose asking Jaime, his 'enemy', to give his regards to Tywin, his 'enemy'. Jaime found it ironic and asked for the same thing. Unless, of course, one assumes that Roose and Jaime also planned to kill Tywin.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Dofs said:

I am not sure what is there to argue, we literally see the whole dialogue of Jaime with Roose and Jaime commenting it in his thoughts. From the way Roose handled Jaime, Jaime understood that Roose is switching sides and Roose then flat out explains why to Jaime. And that's it, that's all Jaime knew. How exactly would that happen Jaime didn't know and didn't seem to care. The final exchange where Jaime asks to send his regards to Robb is Jaime simply joking based on Roose asking Jaime, his 'enemy', to give his regards to Tywin, his 'enemy'. Jaime found it ironic and asked for the same thing. Unless, of course, one assumes that Roose and Jaime also planned to kill Tywin.

Word. And here we are, on page two of this non-thread. 

[Castellan]

 

On 7/19/2018 at 1:08 AM, MostlyMoody said:

Not sure what exactly you are referring to with Tyrion, but Ned does recall what happened at the TOJ and does so frequently, apart from the crucial plot elements (the childbirth) and the exact details and situation between him and his sister. There is a reason for that - it's a painful, suppressed memory for Ned.

Whereas with Jaime we don't even get a hint or an inkling in his thoughts that would at least point in the vague direction of him knowing about the Red Wedding. All we have is his blasé, snarky line about sending regards to Robb.

Someone has posted an extract re Jaime and Brienne getting the news of the Red wedding above.

The fact that we hear about their getting the news in retrospect is neat way of avoiding showing Jaime's inner thoughts in detail. As I said, everything is not spelled out in his or other people's POV. The fact that they got that news at a certain place does not mean that Jaime is not expecting the news. In fact I registered either on first read or a later one that he does seem a bit 'unfazed' as Ser Leftwich says above. It is the problem of Brienne's reaction that concerns him.

Also, my memories of that section, in context, is that it shows Jaime in a bit of a piggish light - as he approaches KL he is obsessively focused on reuniting with Cersei and Brienne is like an unwelcome abandoned conscience dragging along behind him. He is peevish, as if she is spoiling his party. He has returned to a more shallow level. The way he recounts their getting the news has an edge of exasperation rather than sympathy. I registered this on first reading even though as I say on first reading I didn't assume that Jaime knew Robb's death was imminent I just thought that Roose was hedging his bets. I think it shows Jaime trying to shed the gravity he has acquired and the implications of his friendship with Brienne and his oath to Catelyn. I mean obviously he is at war with the Starks and was their prisoner he has no reason for shame in escaping, but hearing that Catelyn was killed too, and a great slaughter of troops in a violation of guest right, would affect him I would think.

Re Tyrion's POV we don't know for example that he has twigged that young griff is supposed to be Aegon. until he thinks something like  'maybe he as a Targ after all". We can think he probably read the clues he has seen at Illyrio's manse (the boys clothes, the statue, the story of Serra) and Illyrio's affection and desire to see Griff the same way readers can choose to, that Griff is his child. Likewise we don't know why he advised Griff to dump meeting Dany and invade Westeros. We can only speculate.

I think that Ned doesn't reveal the details of the TOJ even in fevered remembrance in the dungeon, because he has hidden some things so deep that they are not explicit even in his thoughts. He doesn't mention what his promise was. This neatly avoids letting the reader know about R+L=J and perhaps other things that have not yet been revealed.

[MostlyMoody]

9 hours ago, Castellan said:

The fact that we hear about their getting the news in retrospect is neat way of avoiding showing Jaime's inner thoughts in detail. As I said, everything is not spelled out in his or other people's POV. The fact that they got that news at a certain place does not mean that Jaime is not expecting the news. In fact I registered either on first read or a later one that he does seem a bit 'unfazed' as Ser Leftwich says above. It is the problem of Brienne's reaction that concerns him.

 

No not everything is spelled out but in your provided Tyrion example you mention several clues about Aegon/Griff before the reader is revealed the info. It's the classic George puzzle - 1) start off with a few small hints for the careful reader, 2) lay them on a bit thicker for those catching on, 3) Spell it out for the rest.
We get none of that in Jaime's chapters and since its been several books we never will. So whats the purpose of that detail, other than to paint Jaime in an even more sinister light?

Also to your point about him being unfazed about the news; Jaime laughs as he rides past a gory scene of dead soldiers.

[Castellan]

2 hours ago, MostlyMoody said:

We get none of that in Jaime's chapters and since its been several books we never will. So whats the purpose of that detail, other than to paint Jaime in an even more sinister light?

We have seen and heard what Jaime hears from the Freys and Roose so the question is - just how dumb is Jaime? Not that dumb. As soon as he hears about Robb betraying the marriage pact he must know his reign is over. And, as I said, that chapter where he hears the news reads quite consistently with him knowing that Robb will have been confronted  at the wedding.