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Giant Ice Spider

Areo Hotah - The Most Boring Man in Westeros?

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In A Feast for Crows, the second chapter is givne over to the Norvoshi sellsword Areo Hotah (though it feels odd to call him a sellsword).

It would appear George has had some notion of his existence from the beginning, as he had the honour of being in AGOT's appendix IIRC. This seems odd, since it at that stage in the world-building, there is no need to have developed the captain of guards of the ruler of the least politically relevant of the Seven Kingdoms. At elast, that's my opinion.

So far, however, he has proved to have almost no agency and even less purpose. True, he killed Ser Arys, but GRRM could easily have had someone like Joss Hood do it and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. Furthermore, though he lives to observe, he has observed nothing of use that Arianne couldn't have shown us. I mean, seriously, the only useful thing we get from his two POVs is Doran's plans for the Sand Snakes (for which Arianne was present).

We know that in TWOW, he will be showing us what's going on with Darkstar, Obara Sand, and Ser Balon Swann. It's difficult to say in what direction that subplot will go, all we can say for certain is Hotah is along for the ride. So my question is: what will he be doing? Will he actually some character development, or will he remain the bland observer? Does GRRM have a purpose for him?

Because if he has nothing to do, gets no character development, and GRRM has no plans for him, then I cannot see his point.

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Oh, there's a plan in place.

I think it all goes back to Areo's first chapter of how he travelled with Prince Doran from the Water Gardens to the throne room in Sunspear.

I'm 98% sure that Areo will be our eyes and ears in Dorne for the final two books of the series.

Dorne has been established to be both very important in this last stage of the political games story and in the more mysterious esoteric elements of the story (i.e. the Empty Land and the Broken Arm, House Dayne and the sword Dawn, the Tower of Joy, Dany's house with the red door, the fact it never snows in Dorne).

Dorne also looks like they will be Aegon's fiercest supporters (and one of Daenerys' principal archenemies) which is fascinating considering Dorne doesn't even have the manpower nor the foodstuffs nor the wealth that the Vale or the North has...much less the West, the Reach and the Riverlands.

Dorne has been begging for fire and blood for a long time. And so, when they're finally getting a taste of it, they're not going to like it at all.

There's also this constant linkage between overripe blood-oranges spoiling and Prince Doran's plans for vengeance.

As to why he was featured in the appendix? Although it seems like the Dornish, the Ironborn, the fAegon and the high-fantasy magic stories that begun to appear in Feast and Dance (even Storm) were made up on the fly and came out of nowhere, GRRM has actually been working on these for a long time. Since Game to be exact. The proof is clearly there.

Areo, Catelyn and Davos are supposed to be our inside look into the major movers-n-shakers and developments of the story. Although Catelyn and Davos had clear character arcs of their own from the beginning, Areo's story being delayed intentionally. Like he's going to learn how wrong he was to just be a watcher.

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It's tricky for sure, not just because of the POV situation but also because of how many different directions the plot could go, but I believe what you point out about Arianne being able to show us everything so far must be the key.  I'll list a few possibilities.

1.  Darkstar kills Areo.  What do we gain?  IMO the only thing at all is it builds Darkstar up as a serious badass.  There could be implications to this down the line if he gets Dawn and that is important in the end game, but that seems pretty obscure and with no POV would have to happen off screen.  There are also some variations to this, such as Darkstar killing Obara and Swann as well, I think Swanns death is the only definite though so not even really a variation.

2.  Areo kills Darkstar.  As stated above I believe Swann would also be killed, but this is a pretty bland outcome.  I suppose the aftermath would simply be Hotah and Obara if she survives returning to the Watergardens/Sunspear and Hotah would remain the POV into Dorans actions now that Arianne has left Dorne.

3.  Only Swann dies, with the possibility of an accidental death such as Obara.  In this scenario Darkstar was working with Doran all along.  As we know from GRRM Darkstar did mean to kill Myrcella, it may seem strange to us, but it is entirely possible he was acting on Dorans orders.  While I don't have all the pieces worked out, this is certainly the most fun and interesting possibility.  If Doran learned of the plot to have his son killed on the way to Kings Landing while this was all unfolding, he could have realized after the Darkstar botch that it was for the best anyway, because this gives him an even better way to kill her, by killing her during the attack on the convoy which will be ready for it.  While not rendering him entirely blameless as she is still in his protection, it will certainly drive Cersei mad to think she was the cause, and being outside of his realm, he can't be considered wholly responsible.  What really makes me lean this way however is that it allows all the major characters here to survive and move on, Darkstar, Obara, and Hotah, though I consider Obara expendable.  It seems to me the constant mentions of him being the most dangerous man in Dorne mean Darkstar has more of a role to play, and that Hotah having the POV means he will also stick around, therefore this is my conclusion.  Hotah then goes back to Doran, and Darkstar possibly with Obara lead the Dornish army closer to Highgarden, I can't remember which Dornish pass is which, but the army is split in two in the two main passes leading out of Dorne, so if the one closer to Storms End marches that way to support Aegon, the other can move into the vulnerable Reach.

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13 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Oh, there's a plan in place.

I think it all goes back to Areo's first chapter of how he travelled with Prince Doran from the Water Gardens to the throne room in Sunspear.

I'm 98% sure that Areo will be our eyes and ears in Dorne for the final two books of the series.

Dorne has been established to be both very important in this last stage of the political games story and in the more mysterious esoteric elements of the story (i.e. the Empty Land and the Broken Arm, House Dayne and the sword Dawn, the Tower of Joy, Dany's house with the red door, the fact it never snows in Dorne).

Dorne also looks like they will be Aegon's fiercest supporters (and one of Daenerys' principal archenemies) which is fascinating considering Dorne doesn't even have the manpower nor the foodstuffs nor the wealth that the Vale or the North has...much less the West, the Reach and the Riverlands.

Dorne has been begging for fire and blood for a long time. And so, when they're finally getting a taste of it, they're not going to like it at all.

There's also this constant linkage between overripe blood-oranges spoiling and Prince Doran's plans for vengeance.

As to why he was featured in the appendix? Although it seems like the Dornish, the Ironborn, the fAegon and the high-fantasy magic stories that begun to appear in Feast and Dance (even Storm) were made up on the fly and came out of nowhere, GRRM has actually been working on these for a long time. Since Game to be exact. The proof is clearly there.

Areo, Catelyn and Davos are supposed to be our inside look into the major movers-n-shakers and developments of the story. Although Catelyn and Davos had clear character arcs of their own from the beginning, Areo's story being delayed intentionally. Like he's going to learn how wrong he was to just be a watcher.

That is not impossible, that he could start having an opinion. It seems to me though, that his indoctrination to serve, obey, protect runs too deep. Even if he does suddenly start doing more than just observe, it seems to me he'd be hard-pressed to do anything about it simply because of his ideology.

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7 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

That is not impossible, that he could start having an opinion. It seems to me though, that his indoctrination to serve, obey, protect runs too deep. Even if he does suddenly start doing more than just observe, it seems to me he'd be hard-pressed to do anything about it simply because of his ideology.



Exactly.

I've been reading through the Heresy 210 thread ("Babe in the Woods") and they have me convinced that there's a lot of prophetical, mystical mysterious stuff going on in the Red Mountains...and, no matter where you look, House Dayne is right in the thick of it.

Areo is likely going to be our POV into those shenanigans. But, like you said, he's not going to do anything but be a glorified camera.

By the time, he starts having an opinion and/or feels the need to act independently, he's not going to actually do anything...unlike Catelyn and Davos. Catelyn especially gets a bad rep because she's constantly presented with these difficult, fcked up situations and actually tries to do something about it. Areo seems like he's going to be the exact opposite. By the time, he's actually going to try and start doing stuff, it's going to way too late. The ship will have already sailed.

And I think it will doom him, Prince Doran, the rest of the Martell household -- excluding Arianne -- and maybe even the Martell bannermen.

Think of what happened in the French Revolution to Louis XIV, Marie Antoinette and their family. Or of what happened to the Romanovs during the Russian Revolution.

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16 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Exactly.

I've been reading through the Heresy 210 thread ("Babe in the Woods") and they have me convinced that there's a lot of prophetical, mystical mysterious stuff going on in the Red Mountains...and, no matter where you look, House Dayne is right in the thick of it.

Areo is likely going to be our POV into those shenanigans. But, like you said, he's not going to do anything but be a glorified camera.

By the time, he starts having an opinion and/or feels the need to act independently, he's not going to actually do anything...unlike Catelyn and Davos. Catelyn especially gets a bad rep because she's constantly presented with these difficult, fcked up situations and actually tries to do something about it. Areo seems like he's going to be the exact opposite. By the time, he's actually going to try and start doing stuff, it's going to way too late. The ship will have already sailed.

And I think it will doom him, Prince Doran, the rest of the Martell household -- excluding Arianne -- and maybe even the Martell bannermen.

Think of what happened in the French Revolution to Louis XIV, Marie Antoinette and their family. Or of what happened to the Romanovs during the Russian Revolution.

So you think there will be a popular uprising? I haven't heard that one before. It would certainly be interesting

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

So you think there will be a popular uprising? I haven't heard that one before. It would certainly be interesting

Yes I do.

Remember the very first Dornish chapter we got? The people were throwing half-rotten fruit at Doran when he came into Sunspear for the first time in what? Two years? It was so bad that Areo actually had to do something.

Actually, all of the Dornish chapters we got basically told us that the Dornish people - noblemen and smallfolk alike - are not happy with the way Doran Martell has run Dorne. Prince Doran, while popular among readers, is actually infamous for being "very good at doing nothing." This assessment of him - while not entirely true - is very common. Largely due to the fact that Prince Doran's communication skills are awful and the fact that he is a naturally slow-moving, methodical person.

I don't think the popular uprising against House Martell (maybe all of the nobility) will happen until Dream. Maybe Aegon/Arianne's war with Daenerys will beggar Dorne. And I say Dorne because the Reach is likely going to be picked about by Cersei and/or Euron so they will already be beggared, the Stormlands have been mostly worn down by the Wot5K so there's not much there to begin with and the Riverlands … well, enough has been said about that.

But I think that whatever it is that House Dayne is up to (there's no way the Darkstar is working alone), why Rhaegar was in Dorne for so long during the rebellion (I don't believe the honeymoon phase excuse) and what really was going on at the Tower of Joy....it's going to be connected to the anti-Martell sentiments.

Areo is actually the perfect POV character for this because, unlike Catelyn and Davos, he's going to do absolutely nothing but follow orders and watch the disaster unfold until it's absolutely too late for him to do anything about it...

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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Honestly, I think the only reason Areo's POV exists at all is GRRM realized that once he locked Arianne up there would be no Dorne POV for a good part of the story. He needed someone and The Soiled Knight was no good as he wasn't attached to the Dornish court. He probably chose Areo because he liked him.

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15 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yes I do.

Remember the very first Dornish chapter we got? The people were throwing half-rotten fruit at Doran when he came into Sunspear for the first time in what? Two years? It was so bad that Areo actually had to do something.

Actually, all of the Dornish chapters we got basically told us that the Dornish people - noblemen and smallfolk alike - are not happy with the way Doran Martell has run Dorne. Prince Doran, while popular among readers, is actually infamous for being "very good at doing nothing." This assessment of him - while not entirely true - is very common. Largely due to the fact that Prince Doran's communication skills are awful and the fact that he is a naturally slow-moving, methodical person.

I don't think the popular uprising against House Martell (maybe all of the nobility) will happen until Dream. Maybe Aegon/Arianne's war with Daenerys will beggar Dorne. And I say Dorne because the Reach is likely going to be picked about by Cersei and/or Euron so they will already be beggared, the Stormlands have been mostly worn down by the Wot5K so there's not much there to begin with and the Riverlands … well, enough has been said about that.

But I think that whatever it is that House Dayne is up to (there's no way the Darkstar is working alone), why Rhaegar was in Dorne for so long during the rebellion (I don't believe the honeymoon phase excuse) and what really was going on at the Tower of Joy....it's going to be connected to the anti-Martell sentiments.

Areo is actually the perfect POV character for this because, unlike Catelyn and Davos, he's going to do absolutely nothing but follow orders and watch the disaster unfold until it's absolutely too late for him to do anything about it...

You make a good point. I can definitely see the Ullers & Yronwoods rising up against House Martell, and if what you say is true, the Daynes may join them (especially after one of their own is executed for a crime he didn't commit).

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13 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

You make a good point. I can definitely see the Ullers & Yronwoods rising up against House Martell, and if what you say is true, the Daynes may join them (especially after one of their own is executed for a crime he didn't commit).

That's the thing.

I don't think it's going to be a case of the highborn rising up against their Martell overlords.

I think the lowborn are going to be the ones rise up against the Martells and completely sabotage any support the Iron Throne will receive from Dorne in their war against Daenerys. Hell, Daenerys may be even be the one to start that fire. She might do it on purpose (because she's mad) and then she sees the consequences and she's immediately like "Whoops....so, yeah, Quentyn was a total accident but this...sorry, Arianne."

I think House Dayne is definitely going to turn regular people against Prince Doran and his house.

If the Yronwoods and the Ullers do side with the commonners, it won't be because of politics, revenge or self-preservation. It'll be because they believe in whatever it is that House Dayne has been working on for the past 15-20 years (i.e. since Robert's Rebellion). If Prince Doran Martell and Queen Arianne want to get in the way, then that's their funeral.

Basically, I think the Dornish story that Areo Hotah is going to witness has more to do with the mysteries of the story and the song of ice and fire than it has to do with the wars and politics of the game of thrones. Because I don't think the Tower of Joy was just a honeymoon vacation spot and I don't believe Eddard Stark's trip to Starfall was just about doing his due diligence and honoring the Dayne family. Because if that was the case, why didn't he return the corpse of Barbrey Dustin's husband....who, might I remind you, are his actual bannermen.

Something big happened in the Red Mountains at the end of Robert's Rebellion. There's even the theory (it's an old one) of how Viserys and Daenerys (or at least Daenerys) were actually housed in Dorne for a while.

I just think Areo is going to be our eyes and ears into it.

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10 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

That's the thing.

I don't think it's going to be a case of the highborn rising up against their Martell overlords.

I think the lowborn are going to be the ones rise up against the Martells and completely sabotage any support the Iron Throne will receive from Dorne in their war against Daenerys. Hell, Daenerys may be even be the one to start that fire. She might do it on purpose (because she's mad) and then she sees the consequences and she's immediately like "Whoops....so, yeah, Quentyn was a total accident but this...sorry, Arianne."

I think House Dayne is definitely going to turn regular people against Prince Doran and his house.

If the Yronwoods and the Ullers do side with the commonners, it won't be because of politics, revenge or self-preservation. It'll be because they believe in whatever it is that House Dayne has been working on for the past 15-20 years (i.e. since Robert's Rebellion). If Prince Doran Martell and Queen Arianne want to get in the way, then that's their funeral.

Basically, I think the Dornish story that Areo Hotah is going to witness has more to do with the mysteries of the story and the song of ice and fire than it has to do with the wars and politics of the game of thrones. Because I don't think the Tower of Joy was just a honeymoon vacation spot and I don't believe Eddard Stark's trip to Starfall was just about doing his due diligence and honoring the Dayne family. Because if that was the case, why didn't he return the corpse of Barbrey Dustin's husband....who, might I remind you, are his actual bannermen.

Something big happened in the Red Mountains at the end of Robert's Rebellion. There's even the theory (it's an old one) of how Viserys and Daenerys (or at least Daenerys) were actually housed in Dorne for a while.

I just think Areo is going to be our eyes and ears into it.

Yeah, I may have slightly misunderstood you.

I don't think there's any textual evidence that Ned went to Starfall to do anything other than return Dawn and/or see Ashara again, though you could be correct. That said, something has to be going on with the Daynes. There has to be more to them than Ser Gerold and little Lord Ned.

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Areo is not a sellsword, he is a former slave soldier bought and branded by the ruling priesthood of Norvos, who became a member of Lady Mellario's household guard and eventually accompanied her to Westeros when she married Doran. This background is a key element of his POVs, and it's such an odd choice for a character from Dorne (an already underrepresented region) that it has to be deliberate.

I believe that Norvos will play a major part in Dany's story line, with Mellario Martell as a main instigator. The seeds are already planted for conflicts in Volantis and Pentos, so chances are we'll see Dany attempting to strong-arm the Free Cities into abolishing slavery as she marches her great khalasar west. Some of these cities will probably fold immediately when faced with a dragonrider and the full might of the Dothraki, but Mellario, blaming Dany for Quentin's death, will convince the priesthood to oppose her at all costs.

Whether or not Norvos will manage strike any sort of meaningful blow against Dany, whether it will be on purpose or by accident, in the end Norvos will burn (it is a very flammable city, with lots of palisades and houses made of wood), and this tragedy will serve as justification for certain factions, such as Braavos and/or Aegon, to fully oppose Dany later on.

As for Areo himself, it is reasonable enough to believe that the loss of his home city and Mellario will turn him into a fierce Dany opponent, if not cause him to go over the edge. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up slaying a dragon with that great axe of his. It would be a cruel twist if Dany were to suffer such a loss at the hands of a former slave trying to avenge his former masters.

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17 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

Areo is not a sellsword, he is a former slave soldier bought and branded by the ruling priesthood of Norvos, who became a member of Lady Mellario's household guard and eventually accompanied her to Westeros when she married Doran. This background is a key element of his POVs, and it's such an odd choice for a character from Dorne (an already underrepresented region) that it has to be deliberate.

I believe that Norvos will play a major part in Dany's story line, with Mellario Martell as a main instigator. The seeds are already planted for conflicts in Volantis and Pentos, so chances are we'll see Dany attempting to strong-arm the Free Cities into abolishing slavery as she marches her great khalasar west. Some of these cities will probably fold immediately when faced with a dragonrider and the full might of the Dothraki, but Mellario, blaming Dany for Quentin's death, will convince the priesthood to oppose her at all costs. 

Whether or not Norvos will manage strike any sort of meaningful blow against Dany, whether it will be on purpose or by accident, in the end Norvos will burn (it is a very flammable city, with lots of palisades and houses made of wood), and this tragedy will serve as justification for certain factions, such as Braavos and/or Aegon, to fully oppose Dany later on.

As for Areo himself, it is reasonable enough to believe that the loss of his home city and Mellario will turn him into a fierce Dany opponent, if not cause him to go over the edge. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up slaying a dragon with that great axe of his. It would be a cruel twist if Dany were to suffer such a loss at the hands of a former slave trying to avenge his former masters.

Ooh, now this is interesting. I knew Areo was from Norvos but I forgot that he was a slave soldier who was freed by Mellario. And I do specifically remembering Quentyn thinking a lot about his mother (I agree; he should've visited her)

I do think that Daenerys will be successful in her quest to abolish slavery. Unfortunately, Daenerys has tried doing it the nice way and it hasn't worked. I think that her time in the Dothraki Sea is going to make her a lot more...ferocious. Which is good because it makes her much more likely to be successful in her fights against the Others and Euron...but it also makes her an absolutely terrifying threat to everyone else.

But I don't think that Braavos will oppose her. They'll feel very conflicted but they'll probably decide to stay neutral. But the Faceless Men? 

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On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 11:09 PM, The Coconut God said:

Areo is not a sellsword, he is a former slave soldier bought and branded by the ruling priesthood of Norvos, who became a member of Lady Mellario's household guard and eventually accompanied her to Westeros when she married Doran. This background is a key element of his POVs, and it's such an odd choice for a character from Dorne (an already underrepresented region) that it has to be deliberate.

I believe that Norvos will play a major part in Dany's story line, with Mellario Martell as a main instigator. The seeds are already planted for conflicts in Volantis and Pentos, so chances are we'll see Dany attempting to strong-arm the Free Cities into abolishing slavery as she marches her great khalasar west. Some of these cities will probably fold immediately when faced with a dragonrider and the full might of the Dothraki, but Mellario, blaming Dany for Quentin's death, will convince the priesthood to oppose her at all costs.

Whether or not Norvos will manage strike any sort of meaningful blow against Dany, whether it will be on purpose or by accident, in the end Norvos will burn (it is a very flammable city, with lots of palisades and houses made of wood), and this tragedy will serve as justification for certain factions, such as Braavos and/or Aegon, to fully oppose Dany later on.

As for Areo himself, it is reasonable enough to believe that the loss of his home city and Mellario will turn him into a fierce Dany opponent, if not cause him to go over the edge. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up slaying a dragon with that great axe of his. It would be a cruel twist if Dany were to suffer such a loss at the hands of a former slave trying to avenge his former masters.

After a certain age, dragonhide becomes impenetrable. I'm not sure when that is, and if Areo will attack the dragons in time. It could be he is burned to death trying.

Also @Jabar of House Titan, it isn't stated anywhere that Areo was freed, that I know of. From the app:

Quote

The youngest son of a poor family in Norvos, Areo is given to the bearded priests that rule Norvos to be trained as a warrior. At sixteen, he swears vows of service and ritually weds his longaxe. To mark the completion of his training, a red-hot axe is placed against his chest, leaving a permanent scar. He is assigned as a guardsman to the family of Lady Mellario, and he follows her to Dorne when she is married to Prince Doran. He accumulates a number of scars and grows old in the service of House Martell, eventually becoming the captain of Sunspear's guard.

Nowhere is the word 'free' mentioned. Though I suppose this is a moot point.

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7 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

After a certain age, dragonhide becomes impenetrable. I'm not sure when that is, and if Areo will attack the dragons in time. It could be he is burned to death trying.

Also @Jabar of House Titan, it isn't stated anywhere that Areo was freed, that I know of. From the app:

Nowhere is the word 'free' mentioned. Though I suppose this is a moot point.

Not necessarily.

If Areo is still a slave of Mellario, then he is only in Dorne at the leisure of Mellario Martell. If he's still alive, Mellario can recall him at any time and Areo (especially someone like Areo) would be compelled to obey.

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On 7/23/2018 at 4:31 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Ooh, now this is interesting. I knew Areo was from Norvos but I forgot that he was a slave soldier who was freed by Mellario. And I do specifically remembering Quentyn thinking a lot about his mother (I agree; he should've visited her)

He does think that he should have visited her, you're right. This is another hint that she will play a part in the story. There is a third one as well. After Arianne's plot is uncovered, Andrey Dalt, one of her co-conspirators, is sent to Norvos for three years to serve Lady Mellario, ostensibly as punishment.

What if it's not a punishment, though? What if Andrey is the one who told on Arianne, and by doing that earned Doran's trust? Perhaps he sent him to Lady Mellario to inform her about Quentin's mission and ask her to help whichever way she can, perhaps by sending troops to Daeneys or making sure the bearded priests declare for her. This would place Mellario in an excellent position to be Dany's betrayal for blood, starting as a prospective ally and then turning on her once she finds out about Quentin's fate.

On 7/23/2018 at 4:31 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

But I don't think that Braavos will oppose her. They'll feel very conflicted but they'll probably decide to stay neutral. But the Faceless Men? 

I think there is a lot of juicy drama in a Braavos vs Dany scenario.

If she sets out to conquer Essos, there would be a lot of pressure from the Dothraki to conquer all of it as per the Stallion Who Mounts the World prophecy. She would lose face with them if there's a city that doesn't submit and she just accepts to leave it alone. Making that choice would be a very hard moment for Dany, since Braavos is the closest thing to home for her, one of the few places where she has memories of safety. And the Braavosi will oppose her, especially if she causes another genocide after Astapor.

There is some set up for Tyrion in Braavos as well. Izembaro's play creates a nice foundation for the people of Braavos to react to him if he were to ever visit the city, say in a diplomatic capacity representing Dany, and i am absolutely convinced that the Sailor's Wife is Tysha, so he might return with an entirely different purpose if he leans about her. If Dany plans to do anything drastic, such as burning Braavos to the ground or giving free reign to the Dothraki to sack it, knowing that Tysha is there might push Tyrion into being Dany's betrayal for love.

Of course, it goes without saying that involving Braavos in a war with Dany would send Arya on a collision course with her, which I think would be a lot more interesting than most of the alternatives for Arya. Especially if Jon is already allied/in love with Dany by that time (which wouldn't be all that hard, considering I believe Jon will take his people to Essos to escape the Others after the Wall falls while he's dead).

11 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

It isn't stated anywhere that Areo was freed, that I know of. From the app:

He would have been freed by default, since slavery isn't allowed in Westeros. It's possible that Norvos wouldn't acknowledge his freedom though, which is likely why Doran kept him in Dorne instead of sending him back with Mellario.

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15 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Not necessarily.

If Areo is still a slave of Mellario, then he is only in Dorne at the leisure of Mellario Martell. If he's still alive, Mellario can recall him at any time and Areo (especially someone like Areo) would be compelled to obey.

In most pre-modern cultures, when a man & woman marry, the woman's property enters the man's control. Westeros is slightly different, since a married heiress can still nominally rule in her own right, but we know little of Norvoshi culture, so it could be he passed to Doran.

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10 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

He does think that he should have visited her, you're right. This is another hint that she will play a part in the story. There is a third one as well. After Arianne's plot is uncovered, Andrey Dalt, one of her co-conspirators, is sent to Norvos for three years to serve Lady Mellario, ostensibly as punishment.

What if it's not a punishment, though? What if Andrey is the one who told on Arianne, and by doing that earned Doran's trust? Perhaps he sent him to Lady Mellario to inform her about Quentin's mission and ask her to help whichever way she can, perhaps by sending troops to Daeneys or making sure the bearded priests declare for her. This would place Mellario in an excellent position to be Dany's betrayal for blood, starting as a prospective ally and then turning on her once she finds out about Quentin's fate.

I think there is a lot of juicy drama in a Braavos vs Dany scenario.

If she sets out to conquer Essos, there would be a lot of pressure from the Dothraki to conquer all of it as per the Stallion Who Mounts the World prophecy. She would lose face with them if there's a city that doesn't submit and she just accepts to leave it alone. Making that choice would be a very hard moment for Dany, since Braavos is the closest thing to home for her, one of the few places where she has memories of safety. And the Braavosi will oppose her, especially if she causes another genocide after Astapor.

There is some set up for Tyrion in Braavos as well. Izembaro's play creates a nice foundation for the people of Braavos to react to him if he were to ever visit the city, say in a diplomatic capacity representing Dany, and i am absolutely convinced that the Sailor's Wife is Tysha, so he might return with an entirely different purpose if he leans about her. If Dany plans to do anything drastic, such as burning Braavos to the ground or giving free reign to the Dothraki to sack it, knowing that Tysha is there might push Tyrion into being Dany's betrayal for love.

Of course, it goes without saying that involving Braavos in a war with Dany would send Arya on a collision course with her, which I think would be a lot more interesting than most of the alternatives for Arya. Especially if Jon is already allied/in love with Dany by that time (which wouldn't be all that hard, considering I believe Jon will take his people to Essos to escape the Others after the Wall falls while he's dead).

He would have been freed by default, since slavery isn't allowed in Westeros. It's possible that Norvos wouldn't acknowledge his freedom though, which is likely why Doran kept him in Dorne instead of sending him back with Mellario.

The Order of the Green Hand had an interesting theory that the Martells are connected to the slave trade, which could be true (though it goes against everything Doran has said so far). I don't fully buy it, but I'm keeping my options open. This is why I suggest he might not be free.

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7 hours ago, Giant Ice Spider said:

In most pre-modern cultures, when a man & woman marry, the woman's property enters the man's control. Westeros is slightly different, since a married heiress can still nominally rule in her own right, but we know little of Norvoshi culture, so it could be he passed to Doran.



 Most is a stretch. I know most of Europe was like that (Spain and Portugal were the exceptions) and much of Asia was swinging from one extreme to another...but the peoples of pre-Muslim Africa, the pre-Muslim Middle East, and the pre-European Americas...

I'm not sure. Those societies were a lot more egalitarian than we have been willing to admit. Some of them, particularly the Amerindians who lived in Canada, Greenland and the Arctic, were matrilinear and matriarchal.

The Dothraki seem to be patriarchal but their chief governing body is exclusively comprised of women. Older women.

In the case of Mellario and Doran Martell, if Mellario's property passed into Doran's control, then how was she able to leave for Norvos?

18 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

He does think that he should have visited her, you're right. This is another hint that she will play a part in the story. There is a third one as well. After Arianne's plot is uncovered, Andrey Dalt, one of her co-conspirators, is sent to Norvos for three years to serve Lady Mellario, ostensibly as punishment.

What if it's not a punishment, though? What if Andrey is the one who told on Arianne, and by doing that earned Doran's trust? Perhaps he sent him to Lady Mellario to inform her about Quentin's mission and ask her to help whichever way she can, perhaps by sending troops to Daeneys or making sure the bearded priests declare for her. This would place Mellario in an excellent position to be Dany's betrayal for blood, starting as a prospective ally and then turning on her once she finds out about Quentin's fate.

I think there is a lot of juicy drama in a Braavos vs Dany scenario.

If she sets out to conquer Essos, there would be a lot of pressure from the Dothraki to conquer all of it as per the Stallion Who Mounts the World prophecy. She would lose face with them if there's a city that doesn't submit and she just accepts to leave it alone. Making that choice would be a very hard moment for Dany, since Braavos is the closest thing to home for her, one of the few places where she has memories of safety. And the Braavosi will oppose her, especially if she causes another genocide after Astapor.

There is some set up for Tyrion in Braavos as well. Izembaro's play creates a nice foundation for the people of Braavos to react to him if he were to ever visit the city, say in a diplomatic capacity representing Dany, and i am absolutely convinced that the Sailor's Wife is Tysha, so he might return with an entirely different purpose if he leans about her. If Dany plans to do anything drastic, such as burning Braavos to the ground or giving free reign to the Dothraki to sack it, knowing that Tysha is there might push Tyrion into being Dany's betrayal for love.

Of course, it goes without saying that involving Braavos in a war with Dany would send Arya on a collision course with her, which I think would be a lot more interesting than most of the alternatives for Arya. Especially if Jon is already allied/in love with Dany by that time (which wouldn't be all that hard, considering I believe Jon will take his people to Essos to escape the Others after the Wall falls while he's dead).

He would have been freed by default, since slavery isn't allowed in Westeros. It's possible that Norvos wouldn't acknowledge his freedom though, which is likely why Doran kept him in Dorne instead of sending him back with Mellario.

5

I don't think Daenerys will be setting out to conquer Essos just for the fun of it. She's going to have to have a purpose for doing so. Her purpose is likely going to be ending slavery once and for all.

I also am 99.8% sure that Daenerys' three betrayals of blood, gold and love won't happen until Dream. If anyone of them has to happen in Winds, it's going to be the betrayal of blood. But if Mellario finds out about Quentyn's death before Dany conquers (or, alternatively, destabilizes Essos so bad that she's basically plunging into the dark ages) Essos in Winds, then Dany is going to have a lot of problems conquering Free Cities not named Volantis. Much less when she comes to Westeros.

It also begs this question? Is Daenerys going to conquer all of Essos or is she only going to conquer western Essos (Dothraki Sea, Slaver's Bay, Free Cities, River Rhoyne) and leave eastern Essos (Yi Ti, Asshai) alone.

Wait, what genocide did she cause in Astapor? I just remember that she killed all of the slave masters. Did something else happen?

What's Victarion's role in this going to be? I guess he can work on Myr, Tyrosh and Lys while Tyrion irons out the inevitable wrinkles that Daenerys' Dothraki+Unsullied+Second Sons conquest of Essos 

If Daenerys doesn't have at least 12 chapters in Winds, it's going to be a problem. Daenerys, Bran and Sansa should have the most chapters.

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10 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 Most is a stretch. I know most of Europe was like that (Spain and Portugal were the exceptions) and much of Asia was swinging from one extreme to another...but the peoples of pre-Muslim Africa, the pre-Muslim Middle East, and the pre-European Americas...

I'm not sure. Those societies were a lot more egalitarian than we have been willing to admit. Some of them, particularly the Amerindians who lived in Canada, Greenland and the Arctic, were matrilinear and matriarchal.

The Dothraki seem to be patriarchal but their chief governing body is exclusively comprised of women. Older women.

In the case of Mellario and Doran Martell, if Mellario's property passed into Doran's control, then how was she able to leave for Norvos?

I don't think Daenerys will be setting out to conquer Essos just for the fun of it. She's going to have to have a purpose for doing so. Her purpose is likely going to be ending slavery once and for all.

I also am 99.8% sure that Daenerys' three betrayals of blood, gold and love won't happen until Dream. If anyone of them has to happen in Winds, it's going to be the betrayal of blood. But if Mellario finds out about Quentyn's death before Dany conquers (or, alternatively, destabilizes Essos so bad that she's basically plunging into the dark ages) Essos in Winds, then Dany is going to have a lot of problems conquering Free Cities not named Volantis. Much less when she comes to Westeros.

It also begs this question? Is Daenerys going to conquer all of Essos or is she only going to conquer western Essos (Dothraki Sea, Slaver's Bay, Free Cities, River Rhoyne) and leave eastern Essos (Yi Ti, Asshai) alone.

Wait, what genocide did she cause in Astapor? I just remember that she killed all of the slave masters. Did something else happen?

What's Victarion's role in this going to be? I guess he can work on Myr, Tyrosh and Lys while Tyrion irons out the inevitable wrinkles that Daenerys' Dothraki+Unsullied+Second Sons conquest of Essos 

If Daenerys doesn't have at least 12 chapters in Winds, it's going to be a problem. Daenerys, Bran and Sansa should have the most chapters.

No one is going farther east then they have already been, so Qarth is the limit.

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