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Giant Ice Spider

Areo Hotah - The Most Boring Man in Westeros?

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20 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I don't think Daenerys will be setting out to conquer Essos just for the fun of it. She's going to have to have a purpose for doing so. Her purpose is likely going to be ending slavery once and for all.

That is true. However, I don't think the Dothraki will follow her blindly. I expect them to be more like Tyrion's Mountain Clans than her own Unsullied. She will have to take their own expectations into account if she wants to keep their loyalty and keep them in check, and this would likely mean fighting anyone who doesn't bend the knee willingly, whether or not Dany thinks they "deserve" to be conquered.

I expect the way she will rally the Dothraki in the books will be something along the lines of "Your ancestors came here to conquer Essos until they broke against the Unsullied beneath the walls of Qohor. Now the Unsullied serve me and I have three dragons. Join me as well and finish what your forefathers couldn't." She probably won't even think of Braavos when she sets this goal for herself, but more like the immediate threats like Qarth, Volantis, the Ghiscari and Qohor itself, which I expect to be an early off-page victory due to its symbolic importance (the original battle for Qohor stopped the initial Dothraki conquest and made the Unsullied popular all over Essos) but limited exposure in the story.

20 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I also am 99.8% sure that Daenerys' three betrayals of blood, gold and love won't happen until Dream. If anyone of them has to happen in Winds, it's going to be the betrayal of blood. But if Mellario finds out about Quentyn's death before Dany conquers (or, alternatively, destabilizes Essos so bad that she's basically plunging into the dark ages) Essos in Winds, then Dany is going to have a lot of problems conquering Free Cities not named Volantis. Much less when she comes to Westeros.

It also begs this question? Is Daenerys going to conquer all of Essos or is she only going to conquer western Essos (Dothraki Sea, Slaver's Bay, Free Cities, River Rhoyne) and leave eastern Essos (Yi Ti, Asshai) alone.

Like I said, I don't think Dany will actually reach Westeros in the books. I believe the Others will roll over everyone and the main players will start migrating to Essos instead, starting with Jon via the Manderly fleet (think Hardhome but at White Harbor). Jon has an open credit tab at the Iron Bank to "feed his people through the winter", which would be his main motivator to take his followers there, along with knowing that's where Justin Massey took (f)Arya.

This means Dany has two books, not one, to deal with the free cities. A conclusion for Slaver's Bay plus Norvos and Volantis in Winds, and a conflict with Braavos on one side and Pentos, Myr, Lys and Tyrosh plus Aegon's surviving forces on the other in A Dream of Spring. I do not believe she will go as far as Yi Ti and Asshai, but Qarth will most likely get a resolution alongside Slaver's Bay.

20 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Wait, what genocide did she cause in Astapor? I just remember that she killed all of the slave masters. Did something else happen?

She didn't cause it directly, but after she left the weak government she established was quickly overthrown by a dictator who started making Unsullied again (I believe from the children of nobles?) and declared war on Yunkai. The city ended up plagued by famine, pestilence and war, and most of the inhabitants died horribly (Astapor was the source the Pale Mare). Even among the non-unsullied slaves who followed Dany initially, many died of hunger on the way (keeping them fed was the reason she attacked Yunkai and Meereen). Her coup basically destroyed the city.

20 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

What's Victarion's role in this going to be? I guess he can work on Myr, Tyrosh and Lys while Tyrion irons out the inevitable wrinkles that Daenerys' Dothraki+Unsullied+Second Sons conquest of Essos 

I don't think Victarion will have an important role. His actions will eventually get Euron a dragon, just like he planned. I expect he will either die, or steal one and sail back to Westeros when he finds out Dany isn't in Meereen. If he survives until later in the series, I think he is a good candidate to be the Valonquar. The Forsaken chapter hints that Cersei will ally herself with Euron, and Victarion has a fixation with taking a wife away from his older brother. It would be fittingly out of left field for Cersei after all the paranoia she had regarding Tyrion, and I don't think it will be Jaime because that would be too cheesy (he's on a completely different path besides).

As for Euron, I think all the hints towards a conflict with Dany are red herrings. Together with Cersei, he will serve as a foil to the refugees trying to sail East, namely Sansa, Aegon & Arianne, maybe Sam. That would be a far more terrifying and destructive use for him.

Edited by The Coconut God

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I feel the two of Dany’s betrayals have already occurred:

mirri max duur was blood

jorah was gold

love...that will be the interesting one. 

I am interested in this thread about magical stuff occuring in the red mountains. Does anyone have a link?

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On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 5:17 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

I feel the two of Dany’s betrayals have already occurred:

mirri max duur was blood

jorah was gold

love...that will be the interesting one. 

I am interested in this thread about magical stuff occuring in the red mountains. Does anyone have a link?

Technically, Jorah betrayed her for a pardon. No gold was offered him, AFAIK.

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@Lady Rhodes @Giant Ice Spider

I don't think the betrayals will happen until Dream

The betrayals of blood and gold are up in the air (Tyrion will be likely one of them) but I think the betrayal of love is going to be Daenerys betraying herself.

How many times in how many songs do we hear people lament the process of falling in love? The words never come out right, they can't seem to live their lives in peace, they can't think about anything else about that person. Their friends tell them to "get it together, watch out" but they don't listen.

It's important to remember that Daenerys is a very lonely person, she has no home even though she wants to make one for herself and that she has never ever been in love before. There was Drogo, Hizdahr, Quentyn, (soon-to-be) Victarion and whoever else she might meet.

And now here comes Jon with his good looks, his strong family background, an ancient beautiful castle filled with bannermen and servants who love him, an exotic kingdom (exotic to Daenerys; has she ever seen snow-capped mountains and white plains?), an amazing sense of right and wrong, a reputation as a good commander AND a good soldier and a purpose.

Aww man. It's game over.

I think Daenerys is going to fall head over in heels in love with Jon and it's going to end up dooming the continent because she's not focused on getting rid of Varys and stopping Euron. She's going to get wrapped up in a wild goose chase involving the Others because of Jon (hint: I don't think the Others are the real problem anymore). Then she's going to start making emotional decisions based on Jon; what Jon would want, what Jon would do, what would impress Jon, what does Jon need, etc.

She may even lose face with her Dothraki super- khalasar .

Then she's going to end up pregnant. And at that point, she's not going to be able to fight like she used to. Like many women, a surprise pregnancy is going to snap Daenerys out of her reverie (especially if Jon is not all that into her).

And Danny is going to be like "Damn. I really screwed myself over."

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On 7/18/2018 at 11:28 AM, Giant Ice Spider said:

In A Feast for Crows, the second chapter is givne over to the Norvoshi sellsword Areo Hotah (though it feels odd to call him a sellsword).

It would appear George has had some notion of his existence from the beginning, as he had the honour of being in AGOT's appendix IIRC. This seems odd, since it at that stage in the world-building, there is no need to have developed the captain of guards of the ruler of the least politically relevant of the Seven Kingdoms. At elast, that's my opinion.

So far, however, he has proved to have almost no agency and even less purpose. True, he killed Ser Arys, but GRRM could easily have had someone like Joss Hood do it and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. Furthermore, though he lives to observe, he has observed nothing of use that Arianne couldn't have shown us. I mean, seriously, the only useful thing we get from his two POVs is Doran's plans for the Sand Snakes (for which Arianne was present).

We know that in TWOW, he will be showing us what's going on with Darkstar, Obara Sand, and Ser Balon Swann. It's difficult to say in what direction that subplot will go, all we can say for certain is Hotah is along for the ride. So my question is: what will he be doing? Will he actually some character development, or will he remain the bland observer? Does GRRM have a purpose for him?

Because if he has nothing to do, gets no character development, and GRRM has no plans for him, then I cannot see his point.

My main issue with him, and some many other characters, but that is probably just me, is that I cannot feel anything for him good or bad or medium.  I don't want him to win, or to lose, or care if he lives or dies.  He is a blank canvas to me when it comes to me (the reader) connecting with the character.  I can accept him in a very omminiscent narrator capacity but, since I have not been shown his human traits (warts and all), his lusts, his vulnerabilities, his ambitions, his insecurites... I feel absolutely zero for this character.  He may serve as narrator though.  I admit it is a flaw of mine that I do feel the need to "connect" with characters and there are a few robots in sci-fi I feel much more stongly about than this guy...  Not saying George hasn't a purpose for him, all I am saying is that "to me" in the meantime the guy may as well be a piece of plastic...

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On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 10:56 AM, Morgana Lannister said:

My main issue with him, and some many other characters, but that is probably just me, is that I cannot feel anything for him good or bad or medium.  I don't want him to win, or to lose, or care if he lives or dies.  He is a blank canvas to me when it comes to me (the reader) connecting with the character.  I can accept him in a very omminiscent narrator capacity but, since I have not been shown his human traits (warts and all), his lusts, his vulnerabilities, his ambitions, his insecurites... I feel absolutely zero for this character.  He may serve as narrator though.  I admit it is a flaw of mine that I do feel the need to "connect" with characters and there are a few robots in sci-fi I feel much more stongly about than this guy...  Not saying George hasn't a purpose for him, all I am saying is that "to me" in the meantime the guy may as well be a piece of plastic...

Human robots are never very exciting, are they?

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On 8/11/2018 at 6:44 AM, Giant Ice Spider said:

Human robots are never very exciting, are they?

Except in Japan ;)

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On 7/26/2018 at 12:15 PM, The Coconut God said:

Qohor

i'm sure Qohor and Norvos will fall. i think Essaria (or however it was called) the 10th free city destroyed by the dothraki is a foreshadowing for what will happen to Qohor, and Croyane is the forshadowing for Norvos.  The Rhoyne was never a good place for a city :D

which brings us to Volantis, hey might go down as well, but i'm not entirely sure-.

As for Areo, if he survives Darkstar, he will be our Doran Cam until Dany burns Norvos, i think then he will either seek revenge or he will Join someone who is in open opposition to Dany. like Aegon. i would like to see Areo in his Kingsguard for example

 

On 7/26/2018 at 12:15 PM, The Coconut God said:

Like I said, I don't think Dany will actually reach Westeros in the books. I believe the Others will roll over everyone and the main players will start migrating to Essos instead,

i highly doubt this, george would ruin all the plots and make it an escape apocalypse story

On 7/26/2018 at 12:15 PM, The Coconut God said:

This means Dany has two books, not one, to deal with the free cities. A conclusion for Slaver's Bay plus Norvos and Volantis in Winds, and a conflict with Braavos on one side and Pentos, Myr, Lys and Tyrosh plus Aegon's surviving forces on the other in A Dream of Spring. I do not believe she will go as far as Yi Ti and Asshai, but Qarth will most likely get a resolution alongside Slaver's Bay.

i think there is a reason why there are so many Meereen POVs atm.

  • i think the Dothraki Destroying Qohor will happen mostly offscreen
  • Dany will pass through Valyria in one chapter
  • they arrive in Volantis in a Tyrion or Victarion chapter
  • Dany will fly to Norvos in one chapter
  • and destroy it in a second after Mellario betrayed her
  • Tyrion will have annother Volantis chapter where he learns more about Gerion
  • and maybe one in Croyane with the shrouded Lord, IF the shrouded lord is Gerion
  • Battle for Volantis will start as a Victarion POV
  • and end with Dany chapter
  • Tyrosh and Lys will be attacked by victarion, while Myr will capitulate to Dany in her chapter
  • and in the final two chapters she will conquer Pentos, rally her forces and sail to westeros.
  • Braavos and Lorath will not be on her list, i hope we will see the latter through Arya's eyes though

this would be 7 Dany chapters for Twow 1-3 for Tyrion and 3 or 4 for Victarion.

And especially Tyrion will have more Chapters. so as you can see a Free Cities Campain could work in one book, especially in a big one as twow will likely be.

Edited by Euron Lannister

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To this day, I still don't understand why this character is a POV and not Doran Martell. The guy only seems to exist to show us what Doran is up to. I know the usual excuse I get from people is "Doran has too many secrets so there's no way he could be a POV", but so did Ned in the first book, so I find that excuse to be BS. I mean we have every other member of the Martell family so why not him as well. 

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29 minutes ago, sifth said:

To this day, I still don't understand why this character is a POV and not Doran Martell. The guy only seems to exist to show us what Doran is up to. I know the usual excuse I get from people is "Doran has too many secrets so there's no way he could be a POV", but so did Ned in the first book, so I find that excuse to be BS. I mean we have every other member of the Martell family so why not him as well. 

you can't compare ned to doran, doran has secrets, plans and nothing he says can be taken forgrated, even his gout doesn't work the way it should.

Ned was a naive hobor guy, who was played by everone around him, but doran isn't played, he's a player.

the only one you could compare him to is Melisandre, but she wasn't a pov most of the time.

also without Areo we would hav no POV hunting Darkstar, whos pretty interesting imo

and a doran POV would make Arianne's POV boring, the same way that Arya's POV made Brienne's Arya search in the riverlands boring

Edited by Euron Lannister

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59 minutes ago, sifth said:

To this day, I still don't understand why this character is a POV and not Doran Martell. The guy only seems to exist to show us what Doran is up to. I know the usual excuse I get from people is "Doran has too many secrets so there's no way he could be a POV", but so did Ned in the first book, so I find that excuse to be BS. I mean we have every other member of the Martell family so why not him as well. 

Could be the answer lies in looking ahead. Aero can give us eyes on certain action but Doran is wheelchair bound. I agree it’s a weird choice though

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On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 3:38 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Basically, I think the Dornish story that Areo Hotah is going to witness has more to do with the mysteries of the story and the song of ice and fire than it has to do with the wars and politics of the game of thrones. Because I don't think the Tower of Joy was just a honeymoon vacation spot and I don't believe Eddard Stark's trip to Starfall was just about doing his due diligence and honoring the Dayne family. Because if that was the case, why didn't he return the corpse of Barbrey Dustin's husband....who, might I remind you, are his actual bannermen.

Something big happened in the Red Mountains at the end of Robert's Rebellion. There's even the theory (it's an old one) of how Viserys and Daenerys (or at least Daenerys) were actually housed in Dorne for a while.

I just think Areo is going to be our eyes and ears into it.

@King Aegon I Targaryen and I were discussing on an unrelated thread not long ago why Darkstar is considered the most dangerous man in Dorne.  After some other people weighed in, we came to an interesting thought that is supported by textual evidence:  Darkstar would have been between 9 and 13 during Ned's time in Dorne and High Hermitage would be a reasonable stopping point en route to Starfall. 
The thought was that Darkstar knows what happened at the Tower of Joy, and who Jon's parents are.  There was also some speculation that Doran may know as well, and that is why he considers Darkstar dangerous.  Would it not be interesting if we found out information from Areo's POV rather than Jon's own or Bran's (which are the popular speculations)?

My own musings: Darkstar does not get brought up by other characters outside of Dorne.  It does not seem like he is renowned for his sword fighting prowess, something that Brienne, Barristan, Jaime and others muse on frequently, because he is not mentioned.  This isn't to say that he is bad with a sword, just nothing that would warrant him being called "the most dangerous man in Dorne" over. So, I don't think it is his sword fighting that makes him dangerous.  I think it is knowledge.

In short, I think you are right.  I think that Areo is going to be the one that finds out about some of the more secretive things that occurred in Dorne.  I have also read the Babe in the Woods thread, and while I am not convinced entirely that there was sacrificial things going on, I think there is more to the Dornish plot than meets the eye.

 

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On 12/7/2018 at 7:19 AM, Euron Lannister said:

you can't compare ned to doran, doran has secrets, plans and nothing he says can be taken forgrated, even his gout doesn't work the way it should.

Ned was a naive hobor guy, who was played by everone around him, but doran isn't played, he's a player.

the only one you could compare him to is Melisandre, but she wasn't a pov most of the time.

also without Areo we would hav no POV hunting Darkstar, whos pretty interesting imo

and a doran POV would make Arianne's POV boring, the same way that Arya's POV made Brienne's Arya search in the riverlands boring

Ned had plenty of secrets he kept from us in the first book. Jon's parentage, what really happened at the Tower of Joy, the name of the Dornish woman he really loved and so on. So I don't get your point at all. Also take into account that most of Doran's plans are stupid and rather doomed anyway, so I don't see the point of hiding them from the reader.

So explain to me why I should care about this so called "hunt for Darkstar", the character was dumb in AFFC, so I assume he will be the same way in the next novel. Is there a reason I should care about this plot line, that isn't purely fan fiction, because I'd really like to know what it is? I'm just assuming it's a trap and well see Balon Sawnn get killed, but that yoyo is a minor character and that's being generous.

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5 hours ago, sifth said:

Ned had plenty of secrets he kept from us in the first book. Jon's parentage, what really happened at the Tower of Joy, the name of the Dornish woman he really loved and so on. So I don't get your point at all.

thats all stuff that happend in the past, when he doesn't think about it, it doesn't appear in his POV chapter. Doran has secrets that are linked to the current story line of him, if we would know through him, what his palns and intentions are, all arianne chapters and quentyn chapters would be boring.

 

5 hours ago, sifth said:

Also take into account that most of Doran's plans are stupid and rather doomed anyway, so I don't see the point of hiding them from the reader.

that plans he shared with the povs, yes, but there would be no point in a dornish pov if that would have been all he planned.

imo. there is at least something about the "war means wait and dragon means war" thing since one of the lords (yronwood) isn't a friend of house martell. knowing that would make ariannes chapters boring and useless, te same way knowing about arya being in braavos made Briennes search for her boring.

5 hours ago, sifth said:

So explain to me why I should care about this so called "hunt for Darkstar",

1. why did he attack myrcella (or Rosamund whoever was in the desert that day)

2. hes a dayne, which is an interesting house and connected to neds dorne secrets you mentioned

3. what are the sandsnakes/ obara up to, as she is with areo on this hunt.

5 hours ago, sifth said:

that isn't purely fan fiction

remember we are talking about Asoiaf. if someone told you about robb getting killed before reading if you would have considered it tinfoil, fan fic or whatever aswell, but it happend.

thinking of a theory as rubbish, because it sound like fan fiction is pretty ignorant towards the way george writes stories imo

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31 minutes ago, Euron Lannister said:

thats all stuff that happend in the past, when he doesn't think about it, it doesn't appear in his POV chapter. Doran has secrets that are linked to the current story line of him, if we would know through him, what his palns and intentions are, all arianne chapters and quentyn chapters would be boring.

 

that plans he shared with the povs, yes, but there would be no point in a dornish pov if that would have been all he planned.

imo. there is at least something about the "war means wait and dragon means war" thing since one of the lords (yronwood) isn't a friend of house martell. knowing that would make ariannes chapters boring and useless, te same way knowing about arya being in braavos made Briennes search for her boring.

1. why did he attack myrcella (or Rosamund whoever was in the desert that day)

2. hes a dayne, which is an interesting house and connected to neds dorne secrets you mentioned

3. what are the sandsnakes/ obara up to, as she is with areo on this hunt.

remember we are talking about Asoiaf. if someone told you about robb getting killed before reading if you would have considered it tinfoil, fan fic or whatever aswell, but it happend.

thinking of a theory as rubbish, because it sound like fan fiction is pretty ignorant towards the way george writes stories imo

 

So basically all of the reasons I should care about this so called "hunt for Dark Star" are being based on fan fiction theories. Thanks for the confirmation. Ned's only connection to house Dayne is returning their family sword and possibly taking part in the death of the most badass member of the family. Either way I doubt we'll be getting any new info on the Tower of Joy from Areo Hotah in that chapter. I personally don't care about the character Dark Star or really house Dayne as a whole. They had one badass member and he died over a decade before the story began. Dark Star's biggest contribution to the story is attacking a little girl.

Also Arriane and Quentyn's chapters are already boring, so I don't see your point. Quentyn's in particular could have been removed as a POV from ADWD without us really missing a beat. Just have the character explain a few extra things to Dany and have Ser. Barry find his body at the end of a chapter and suddenly ADWD is over 50 pages shorter will less fat. So yea, still not sure why I should care about all of Doran's secret plans, when most of them are dumb to begin with. The whole "dragon" or "war" thing is clearly being used as a code word for the Dornish army to either help Faegon or The Iron Throne. I mean it's as clear as day, just like nearly everything with Dorne has been.

Edited by sifth

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3 minutes ago, sifth said:

So basically all of the reasons I should care about this so called "hunt for Dark Star" are being based on fan fiction theories.

no its not, i dont even know a single one about him. and as i said, speaking of "fan fiction" theories is pretty ignorant.

btw. you speak of fAegon, which would a fan fiction as well

6 minutes ago, sifth said:

Ned's only connection to house Dayne is returning their family sword and possibly taking part in the death of the most badass member of the family.

and thats a pretty big one if you care about the secrets you mentioned yourself

8 minutes ago, sifth said:

I personally don't care about the character Dark Star or really house Dayne as a whole.

well i do, and i want to know more about them that why i want a pov to go to starfall. which luckily happens

9 minutes ago, sifth said:

Also Arriane and Quentyn's chapters are already boring, so I don't see your point.

then take some galsses, if you think they are boring, thats your thing, but as a story they are interesting, because you don't know wherer they lead. and i really enjoyed the dornish story so far. but that would be boring if we would know all of dorans secret intentions.

 

12 minutes ago, sifth said:

So yea, still not sure why I should care about all of Doran's secret plans, when most of them are dumb to begin with.

hell, do you know what secret means?

 

13 minutes ago, sifth said:

The whole "dragon" or "war" thing is clearly being used as a code word for the Dornish army to either help Faegon or The Iron Throne.

thats what we were told, i think there will be more to it, since yronwood is such an anti-rhoynish house i could se the same code word meaning two different things for lord fowler and lord yronwood, to press the yronwoods in opposition of either aegon or the IT to get rid of them.

16 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean it's as clear as day, just like nearly everything with Dorne has been.

if you think so you really have to reread that chapters

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5 minutes ago, Euron Lannister said:

if you think so you really have to reread that chapters

I read all of the books, 3 or 4 times now, I stand by what I said. The only thing you said that had any logic is that "Faegon is a fan theory", which is true. Either way my point still stands regardless if the kid is real or not. I mean if you want to believe something amazing will come out of all of these Dorne chapters, where next to nothing has happened so far, that's cool, but I'm frankly not holding my breath. You can literally remove all of the chapters from Dorne in AFFC and not really miss a beat, IMO

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59 minutes ago, sifth said:

I read all of the books, 3 or 4 times now, I stand by what I said. The only thing you said that had any logic is that "Faegon is a fan theory", which is true. Either way my point still stands regardless if the kid is real or not. I mean if you want to believe something amazing will come out of all of these Dorne chapters, where next to nothing has happened so far, that's cool, but I'm frankly not holding my breath. You can literally remove all of the chapters from Dorne in AFFC and not really miss a beat, IMO

you would miss who arianne is, who will play a role in aegons story in twow.

also most of the dorne stuff is exposition till now, like the pre kings landig chapters in agot, there is more to come and it will come.

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