Bloodraven, the red priestess, and the black bastsrd

[watchayakan]

I've been wondering, for those that hold the idea that Bloodraven is the Three-Eyed Raven as well as the father of Melissandre, what does he think of Jon Snow? And does he in some way communicate with his daughter? I would think that if Jon is important that Brynden would be aware of this, and there are some pretty good clues, such as from Mormont's crow, that he is aware. 

Does he share this info with Mel? If so, what does he tell her? Does what he tell her make her believe that Jon is not Azor Ahai? Does it make her question her faith in Stannis? If they don't communicate, why not?

I am curious what the rest of the community thinks. 

[TPTWP Timett]

Mel thinks Bloodraven is her enemy so I seriously doubt he's communicating with her.  I don't believe he's her father mainly because it adds nothing I don't remember any evidence either way.

[kissdbyfire]

Bloodraven is the Three-Eyed Crow, not raven.

I don't believe he is Mel's father. And as @TPTWP Timett said, Mel sees BR and thinks he's an agent of the Great Other. It seems clear they are not communicating. 

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Bloodraven is the Three-Eyed Crow, not raven.

I don't believe he is Mel's father. And as @TPTWP Timett said, Mel sees BR and thinks he's an agent of the Great Other. It seems clear they are not communicating. 

A minor nitpick, Mel doesn't sleep to avoid receiveing dreams from the Great Other; so there are attempts of communication that she is trying to block

Quote

And she feared to dream. Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night. She would sooner sit bathed in the ruddy glow of her red lord’s blessed flames, her cheeks flushed by the wash of heat as if by a lover’s kisses. Some nights she drowsed, but never for more than an hour. One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams. Melony, she thought. Lot Seven.

 

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, Tucu said:

A minor nitpick, Mel doesn't sleep to avoid receiveing dreams from the Great Other; so there are attempts of communication that she is trying to block

 

She does nod off here and there, but yeah, I hear ya. And she thinks the GO is attempting to communicate w/ her, but that doesn't mean anyone actually is or that there's an actual "Great Other". 

Now, I think it's possible that BR/CotF/Bran may sense her powers at the Wall, and may even try to communicate. But it isn't/wouldn't be anything that she's expecting or thinking ("is that the enemy?" - paraphrasing). 

Mel is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, despite having actual powers on top of her bag of tricks. But seriously...

- she sees BR w/ a boy w/ a wolf's head

- she sees Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man again

- she knows Jon has a wolf

- she knows the direwolf is the sigil of House Stark

And yet she doesn't connect the dots!

 

[The WolfSpider]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

She does nod off here and there, but yeah, I hear ya. And she thinks the GO is attempting to communicate w/ her, but that doesn't mean anyone actually is or that there's an actual "Great Other". 

Now, I think it's possible that BR/CotF/Bran may sense her powers at the Wall, and may even try to communicate. But it isn't/wouldn't be anything that she's expecting or thinking ("is that the enemy?" - paraphrasing). 

Mel is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, despite having actual powers on top of her bag of tricks. But seriously...

- she sees BR w/ a boy w/ a wolf's head

- she sees Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man again

- she knows Jon has a wolf

- she knows the direwolf is the sigil of House Stark

And yet she doesn't connect the dots!

 

Or say/think anything about it anyway but still good point.  

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

She does nod off here and there, but yeah, I hear ya. And she thinks the GO is attempting to communicate w/ her, but that doesn't mean anyone actually is or that there's an actual "Great Other". 

Now, I think it's possible that BR/CotF/Bran may sense her powers at the Wall, and may even try to communicate. But it isn't/wouldn't be anything that she's expecting or thinking ("is that the enemy?" - paraphrasing). 

Mel is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, despite having actual powers on top of her bag of tricks. But seriously...

- she sees BR w/ a boy w/ a wolf's head

- she sees Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man again

- she knows Jon has a wolf

- she knows the direwolf is the sigil of House Stark

And yet she doesn't connect the dots!

 

It is her dualistic view of the world that blinds her. She associates Jon with the "good" side as he is part of the NW, so he cannot be part of the "evil" side.

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It is her dualistic view of the world that blinds her. She associates Jon with the "good" side as he is part of the NW, so he cannot be part of the "evil" side.

Yes, she's a zealot and that clouds her judgement. Still, it's made worse by the fact that she's really not that sharp. 

[The Fattest Leech]

49 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It is her dualistic view of the world that blinds her. She associates Jon with the "good" side as he is part of the NW, so he cannot be part of the "evil" side.

Just remember that Mel makes many admitted mistakes. She is (more or less) being shown the right image, but she always jumps to conclusions of the meaning, and in doing so, she is manipulating those around her, she shenis probably being manipulated herself (ruby). She is a classic GRRM zealot charlatain. 

And I also think that we readers should note that Mel essentially is absent from the Nights Watch part of the plot at only about halfway through ADWD. She has been doing A LOT of flame reading until that book ends. 

 

In general, I also don’t think she is Bloodraven’s daughter. I know the theories and I can see the temptation to assign characters as hidden babies of someone else because of the whole Ned hiding Jon deal, but I also think there are more than five characters in the books. It doesn’t really seem to add much to the story to have Melisandre be the child of BR, but who knows? If we follow this rabbit down the hole, then that means Mel and Craster are brother and sister (according to some who think Craster is BR’s son), which I guess that means they will automatically start banging 

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Just remember that Mel makes many admitted mistakes. She is (more or less) being shown the right image, but she always jumps to conclusions of the meaning, and in doing so, she is manipulating those around her, she shenis probably being manipulated herself (ruby). She is a classic GRRM zealot charlatain. 

And I also think that we readers should note that Mel essentially is absent from the Nights Watch part of the plot at only about halfway through ADWD. She has been doing A LOT of flame reading until that book ends. 

 

In general, I also don’t think she is Bloodraven’s daughter. I know the theories and I can see the temptation to assign characters as hidden babies of someone else because of the whole Ned hiding Jon deal, but I also think there are more than five characters in the books. It doesn’t really seem to add much to the story to have Melisandre be the child of BR, but who knows? If we follow this rabbit down the hole, then that means Mel and Craster are brother and sister (according to some who think Craster is BR’s son), which I guess that means they will automatically start banging 

I don't think she is BR daughter, but I think she will end being one of the unwilling pawns of the Old Gods.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I don't think she is BR daughter, but I think she will end being one of the unwilling pawns of the Old Gods.

The old gods? Interesting idea. How do you see that working out? 

[Tucu]

13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The old gods? Interesting idea. How do you see that working out? 

It is part of my crackpot view that the Old Gods are playing a game of cyvasse to restore the Kings of Winter and give humanity a chance to survive the incoming Long Night in the old CoTF caves south of the wall.

Mel would be instrumental in Jon Snow rebirth as a King of Winter.

[The Fattest Leech]

33 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It is part of my crackpot view that the Old Gods are playing a game of cyvasse to restore the Kings of Winter and give humanity a chance to survive the incoming Long Night in the old CoTF caves south of the wall.

Mel would be instrumental in Jon Snow rebirth as a King of Winter.

It's not thaaat crackpot

I like the cyvasse metaphor, and I agree with Jon having to be (symbolically) reborn as an agent of the old gods and Jon Snow, King of Winter is a nice note in the song.

I do, however, see more of an ice "rebirth", and that might not necessarily involve Melisandre as often assumed. My idea follows the cup of ice- cup of fire idea, and Jon (Bran and/after Bloodraven) are drinking from that cup of ice. It seems to me that Mel is also drinking from that cup of fire, and that maybe she was sent to Jon to thrust the hungry, jealous, fiery hand of R'hllor down on Jon to remove him from the path of "fire", as those two are at odds with each other (and Mel maybe using Marsh as a pawn as well (not me, not me)). Storm god vs Drowned/sea god all over again moving their dragons across the cyvasse board. Jon being put out by fire to be reborn in ice still allows him to be the song of ice and fire (all symbolically speaking, of course).

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It's not thaaat crackpot

I like the cyvasse metaphor, and I agree with Jon having to be (symbolically) reborn as an agent of the old gods and Jon Snow, King of Winter is a nice note in the song.

I do, however, see more of an ice "rebirth", and that might not necessarily involve Melisandre as often assumed. My idea follows the cup of ice- cup of fire idea, and Jon (Bran and/after Bloodraven) are drinking from that cup of ice. It seems to me that Mel is also drinking from that cup of fire, and that maybe she was sent to Jon to thrust the hungry, jealous, fiery hand of R'hllor down on Jon to remove him from the path of "fire", as those two are at odds with each other (and Mel maybe using Marsh as a pawn as well (not me, not me)). Storm god vs Drowned/sea god all over again moving their dragons across the cyvasse board. Jon being put out by fire to be reborn in ice still allows him to be the song of ice and fire (all symbolically speaking, of course).

About the ice vs fire idea, my crackpot says that the Old Gods have a non-dualistic view. They can make use of both; an agent of fire can assist on the rebirth of an ice agent. Jojen says this:

Quote

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

But maybe it is not Mel who is involved in Jon's rebirth. The (Kar)Stark in the ice cells is also a valid option.

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

About the ice vs fire idea, my crackpot says that the Old Gods have a non-dualistic view. They can make use of both; an agent of fire can assist on the rebirth of an ice agent. Jojen says this:

This is very true, and I love that quote by Jojen. That one, and when Jojen slips in, "by night, all cloaks are black, Your Grace," which could point to the idea that when the long night hits, unity is the only hope. Which could be a tenet of the old gods as well, since the old gods/spirit/consciousness are "in" everything (animism, basically), and it all works together.

The counterpoint seems to be, as you mentioned, the dualistic black and white view that the R'hllorits red priests keep. That closed-mindedness could be the downfall. They are interpreting "religion" wrongly, just as we see today with those that twist the word of God/jesus/whoever to meet their political needs. You can have your faith and religion, just don't condemn others for not following your choice- it doesn't have to be bow or burn.

Or not, just throwing out some ideas because the "gods" aspect of this story sometimes still gives me headaches

7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

But maybe it is not Mel who is involved in Jon's rebirth. The (Kar)Stark in the ice cells is also a valid option.

Maaaybe... but I would not discount the other talents that are immediately available to Jon as I type

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is very true, and I love that quote by Jojen. That one, and when Jojen slips in, "by night, all cloaks are black, Your Grace," which could point to the idea that when the long night hits, unity is the only hope. Which could be a tenet of the old gods as well, since the old gods/spirit/consciousness are "in" everything (animism, basically), and it all works together.

The counterpoint seems to be, as you mentioned, the dualistic black and white view that the R'hllorits red priests keep. That closed-mindedness could be the downfall. They are interpreting "religion" wrongly, just as we see today with those that twist the word of God/jesus/whoever to meet their political needs. You can have your faith and religion, just don't condemn others for not following your choice- it doesn't have to be bow or burn.

Or not, just throwing out some ideas because the "gods" aspect of this story sometimes still gives me headaches

Jon states to Clydas "Winter is coming, <...>Save as many as you can" I think this also reflects the Old Gods intention. Craster also points in this direction "I'm a godly man, and the gods keep me safe". I think that the ones who kneel will be helped; the rest will be left to die or killed. The dualists, the broken men, the ones too proud, etc will have to face Winter on their own.