Does this Mummer's Dragon has us all fooled?

[lAPPYc]

Quote

Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool the got the color wrong.

 - Brynden "The Bloodraven" Rivers, The Mystery Knight.

 

The quote is about how a young Aegon V, a boy of like, twelve, chose to be frightening rather than frightened, and, even though his actions didn't really change the outcome of the rebellion, he became a dragon. Now, what can this tell us about Aegon VI?

When Dany saw the Mummer's Dragon, she was seeing what Aegon was at the moment when he conquered King's Landing, someone being controlled by people he couldn't see. But that doesn't mean he can't break free of his strings. It doesn't mean that a true Dragon can't be born from him. Could Aegon V hatching into a dragon post birth be a foreshadowing for Aegon VI hatching as well? They share a name, and there was even a discussion of colors present in the foreshadowing.

There are theories of him being a Blackfyre son of Illyrio, or just some Blackfyre bastard, and also the common sense that the spymaster should try to spirit the heir of the kingdom into hiding as soon as the news of the Trident came to KL. None of these scenarios prevent him from being a mummer's dragon however, that is to say, an unhatched dragon. And none of these prevent him from hatching into a true dragon either.

Furthermore, the Mummer's Dragon vision comes in the triplet of Dany being the slayer of lies. Most interpret this as evidence that Dany will kill Aegon. I rather think, knowing how prophecies love to be ambiguous, that this vision is about Dany killing not Aegon, but the lie there is (similar as to how the Stannis part of the vision can be interpreted as to have Dany prove that she/someone other than Stannis is the Azor Ahai, thereby slaying the lie that Stannis is the Azor Ahai, and not necessarily having to kill Stannis himself). She will slay the Mummer's Dragon, that is to say, she will, intentionally or otherwise, cause Aegon to hatch. And not only that, he will become the third head of the Dragon.

GRRM has said that the third head of the dragon doesn't necessarily have to be a Targaryen. The way I see it, GRRM used the wording "doesn't necessarily have to be", a Targaryen, because he isn't going t reveal Aegon's parentage. Aegon has the full potential of being the third head of the dragon, and if he does turn out to be the third head, we won't necessarily know that he is/isn't a Targ.

[Wolf of The Wall]

I can't see the conneciton between the quote and fAegeon really. Aegon's (Egg's) metaphor represent him maturing and beacoming the dragon he always was. It's not a transformation like you suggest in the case of fAegon.

[lAPPYc]

1 hour ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

I can't see the conneciton between the quote and fAegeon really. Aegon's (Egg's) metaphor represent him maturing and beacoming the dragon he always was. It's not a transformation like you suggest in the case of fAegon.

Well, Aegon V was a Targ and came into his element. Aegon VI is a Targ/Blackfyre and might come into his element. The connection is that Aegon V was unhatched, and then he hatched. And now Aegon VI is unhatched, and he might also hatch.

[Only 89 selfies today]

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

 

I like your interpretation of the phrase slayer of lies.  It means someone who will reveal the truth.  Stannis and Aegon aren't liars.  Their handlers are the liars.  The word hatch was used too loosely in the short story.  It's Egg coming out of his shell disguise to reveal who he is to Butterwell, a dragon.  

Egg is a dragon lite.  Visenya, Rhaenys, Aegon the conqueror, Maegor, Allysanne, Jaeherys, Daemon, Rhaenyra, and Daenerys are full-bodied dragons.  

George Martin has said you do not need to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon.  He has also said the Valyrians practiced close kin marriages to maintain the ability to ride dragons.  Valyrian ancestry is needed to ride dragons.  

[Sigella]

5 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

The connection is that Aegon V was unhatched, and then he hatched. And now Aegon VI is unhatched, and he might also hatch.

This only holds up if he'd emerge from an egg, though. 

 

edit: Will his temper get so bad people will  walk on eggshells around him but then Dany make him kinder? Or might someone crack his head like a egg and Viserion will scream like Bump did with his dog thus reveal Aegon as a dragon?

[Wolf of The Wall]

5 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

Aegon V was unhatched, and then he hatched. And now Aegon VI is unhatched, and he might also hatch.

Nope. A dragon egg still a dragon egg but a cloth dragon has nothing to do with a real dragon.

[Loose Bolt]

5 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

George Martin has said you do not need to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon.  He has also said the Valyrians practiced close kin marriages to maintain the ability to ride dragons.  Valyrian ancestry is needed to ride dragons.  

How much Valyrian blood Nettles (rider of Sheepsteeler) had ?

[lAPPYc]

1 hour ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Nope. A dragon egg still a dragon egg but a cloth dragon has nothing to do with a real dragon.

If they had shown a dragon egg dancing on strings in the middle of a cheering crowd, I don't think anyone would have understood what was going on. That's just a visual representation. I doubt that if ever the Bloodraven saw Aegon V before his stint at Whitewalls, he just saw an egg. The vision deals with what's important to the vision. Dany saw Jon as a blue flower growing from the Wall, whereas Mel saw him as a switcheroo between wolf and man. Jojen saw Bran as the winged wolf, whereas Jon (and maybe even Arya) saw him as a Weirwood, and then Mel sees him as a boy with the face of a wolf. It's all just relevant representation, it doesn't restrict the person with multiple properties to just one. Bloodraven himself was seen as the Three-eyed-Raven by Bran and Jojen (if Bloodraven=Three-eyed-raven) and then as a wooden face with a thousand eyes by Melisandre. Aegon is both, an unhatched dragon, and a Mummer's Dragon, right now. In my opinion, being a Blackfyre/Targ, even a bastard one, makes you eligible to hatch. The Mummer's Dragon is only a phase he is going through.

[Wolf of The Wall]

1 hour ago, lAPPYc said:

If they had shown a dragon egg dancing on strings in the middle of a cheering crowd, I don't think anyone would have understood what was going on. That's just a visual representation. I doubt that if ever the Bloodraven saw Aegon V before his stint at Whitewalls, he just saw an egg. The vision deals with what's important to the vision. Dany saw Jon as a blue flower growing from the Wall, whereas Mel saw him as a switcheroo between wolf and man. Jojen saw Bran as the winged wolf, whereas Jon (and maybe even Arya) saw him as a Weirwood, and then Mel sees him as a boy with the face of a wolf. It's all just relevant representation, it doesn't restrict the person with multiple properties to just one. Bloodraven himself was seen as the Three-eyed-Raven by Bran and Jojen (if Bloodraven=Three-eyed-raven) and then as a wooden face with a thousand eyes by Melisandre. Aegon is both, an unhatched dragon, and a Mummer's Dragon, right now. In my opinion, being a Blackfyre/Targ, even a bastard one, makes you eligible to hatch. The Mummer's Dragon is only a phase he is going through.

All the examples you gave actually supports my view. All depictions have clear connection to characters they portray. An actual egg represents Aegon V whose moniker is Egg, Jon is being Lyanna's son and the LC of the Watch depicted as a winter rose growing from a wall of ice, Mel saw Jon as a switcheroo because Jon is part Stark (Wolf), Bran is able to skinchange to a raven so he is a winged wolf, Mel saw him as a boy with a wolf face beacuse to Mel he is a Stark. You see these prophetic visions also about the receiver of these visions. That's why Mel and Jojen and Dany saw Bran and Jon differently. It is indeed all relevant but relevant to receiver not subject. Now given all that which interpretation of Dany's visionof the mummer's dragon at the HotU makes more sense: an imposter or someone going through a phase.

[Megorova]

It's all is just a theory and speculations, not facts, but my English isn't very good, so I'm writing in simplified manner.

Hint about possibility of romance between fAegon and probably Arianne:

Quote

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

The towers by the sea is probably one of the castles seized by fAegon and Golden Company. Shadows in the shape of skulls - Golden Company. Bodies locked together in lust could be fAegon and Arianne Martell.

The Hedge Knight:

Quote

 As he ate he watched a painted wooden knight battle a painted wooden dragon. The puppeteer who worked the dragon was good to watch too; a tall drink of water, with the olive skin and black hair of Dorne. She was slim as a lance with no breasts to speak of, but Dunk liked her face and the way her fingers made the dragon snap and slither at the end of its strings.

Quote

The puppeteer’s stall had been knocked on its side. The fat Dornishwoman was on the ground weeping. One man-at-arms was dangling the puppets of Florian and Jonquil from his hands as another set them afire with a torch. Three more men were opening chests, spilling more puppets on the ground and stamping on them. The dragon puppet was scattered all about them, a broken wing here, its head there, its tail in three pieces. And in the midst of it all stood Prince Aerion, resplendent in a red velvet doublet with long dagged sleeves, twisting Tanselle’s arm in both hands.

Could be, that it's a foreshadowing, of what will be happening in ASOIAF-books, with mummer's dragon/fAegon.

Dornishwoman, that will be "playing" with fAegon is Arianne Martell. First she will be slim, and later she will be fat (because she will be pregnant) and crying (because fAegon will die).

Knight Florian and Lady Jonquil could be a parallel to Barristan Selmy and Lady Jayne Swann/Septa Lemore <- fAegon's parents.

Quote

This morning the puppeteers were doing the tale of Florian and Jonquil. The fat Dornishwoman was working Florian in his armor made of motley, while the tall girl held Jonquil’s strings. “You are no knight,” she was saying as the puppet’s mouth moved up and down. “I know you. You are Florian the Fool.”

“I am, my lady,” the other puppet answered, kneeling. “As great a fool as ever lived, and as great a knight as well.”

“A fool and a knight?” said Jonquil. “I have never heard of such a thing.”

“Sweet lady,” said Florian, “all men are fools, and all men are knights, where women are concerned.”

It was a good show, sad and sweet both, with a sprightly swordfight at the end, and a nicely painted giant.

Barristan's giant is Strong Belvas.

"According to legend, Florian first spied Jonquil bathing with her sisters in a pool in what is now Maidenpool. There are songs about Florian and Jonquil; "Six Maids in a Pool" may be one of them." 

Barristan was "Victor in the mêlée at Maidenpool."

Barristan said to Dany, that he came to Essos, looking for his true King. But by that time, Viserys was already dead, so he decided to watch Dany, and see whether he should serve to her. Thus so far Barristan has served to six rulers - Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, Robert Baratheon, Joffrey Baratheon, Daenerys Targaryen. They are his "Six Maids in a Pool" (figuratively speaking). Neither of those six, weren't Barristan's true King. His true King will be his seventh ruler - Jon Snow, Aegon VII Targaryen. Florian is wearing motley armor. Motley is multicolored, like for example armor of Rainbow Guard. There are seven colors in a rainbow, and there are seven Gods in Westeros, and there will also be 7 Aegon's, ruling as Kings in 7K.

That phrase "You are no knight" could be a hint, on how Prince Duncan the Small has unmasked the mystery knight at Blackheaven, and named him Barristan the Bold.

He is the greatest fool for two reasons:

1. six times he has chosen a wrong person to be his master;

2. he was fooled by Lady Jayne Swann. She spiked his drink with love potion, prepared by her septa (who was actually Shiera Seastar in disguise), then seduced him, and later gave birth to his son - fAegon. Barristan is son of knight Selmy and daughter of Aenys Blackfyre. So fAegon, who is Barristan's son, is a Blackfyre thru female line.

And Barristan is also the greatest knight, because he served to 6 rulers, and he was a member of Kingsguard for 40!!!!! years, that's obviously a world record on Planetos.

 

Also I agree, with previous posters, that to slay a lie, it isn't necessary to kill whoever is carrier of that lie. Those three lies, and their creators are: 1. Stannis is Azor Ahai - Melisandre; 2. Young Griff is son of Rhaegar Targaryen - Varys; 3. Jon Snow is the Bastard of Winterfell - Ned Stark.

Though I don't think, that fAegon is one of three heads of the dragon. In my opinion, those three will be like parallel to the Holy Trinity - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; in ASOIAF there will be the Mother (Dany), the Son (Rhaego), and the Holy Ghost (Jon, after he will be resurected, thru help of Ghost and Melisandre). About all three of them (Jon, Dany, and Rhaego) there were ancient prophecies, but there was nothing like that about fAegon. Thus, he is not one of three Saviours.

[lAPPYc]

7 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

ani mposter or someone going through a phase.

I thought you were saying he wasn't going to hatch. If he is going through a phase, he will get out of the phase, which means he will hatch, which was what I was saying.

[Wolf of The Wall]

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

I thought you were saying he wasn't going to hatch. If he is going through a phase, he will get out of the phase, which means he will hatch, which was what I was saying.

Are you doing that on purpose or did you misunderstood me? I am saying he is not a real dragon at all. Read my previous response with a bit more care please. Imposter part is my claim going through a phase is yours. I am not saying he is going through a phase at all.

[Adam Yozza]

1 hour ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Are you doing that on purpose or did you misunderstood me? I am saying he is not a real dragon at all. Read my previous response with a bit more care please. Imposter part is my claim going through a phase is yours. I am not saying he is going through a phase at all.

You know, even if he is a Blackfyre or a Brightflame, he is still a dragon the same way Jon is still considered a wolf despite not being a Stark.

[Wolf of The Wall]

24 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

You know, even if he is a Blackfyre or a Brightflame, he is still a dragon the same way Jon is still considered a wolf despite not being a Stark.

I disagree. Just being a Valyrian descendant is not enough for being a dragon. In prophesies and such dragon represents strong willed Targaryen or other Valyrian descendants.

Also Jon is half Stark.

[lAPPYc]

15 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

Now given all that which interpretation of Dany's visionof the mummer's dragon at the HotU makes more sense: an imposter or someone going through a phase.

 

Jeez, I literally missed the which. Sorry about that. But you're at fault too, there's no question mark.

You agreed to my reasoning that the receivers see what's relevant to them. The problem with your question, which interpretation is relevant to Dany, of an imposter or someone going through a phase, is that both will relevant to Dany. An imposter would be just as dangerous/troublesome as a Mummer's Dragon that she doesn't know might hatch. So I don't know why you'd think Dany will only see an imposter. She may draw whatever conclusion she wants, as will you, but that doesn't mean that's all there is to see. That was my point when I was listing the various forms people might take in visions. In one vision Aegon was a Mummer's Dragon doesn't mean he can't be anything else. Labeling him a non-dragon is like what Mel did with Alys, labeled her Arya. You don't know everything about the subject by the vision.

2 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

I disagree. Just being a Valyrian descendant is not enough for being a dragon.

First, we don't know that this Aegon isn't Rhaegar's son. It takes some weird assumptions to assume that Varys didn't have the foresight to hide away the new crown prince. Second, the Blackfyres dreamed like the Targaryens did. They saw the future. The quote in my original post, about dreaming about a dragon hatching, the dream was dreamed by Daemon Blackfyre. They are as much a dragon as the Targaryens, IMO. Now if you disagree with that, we simply have to agree to disagree.

2 hours ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

In prophesies and such dragon represents strong willed Targaryen or other Valyrian descendants.

Aegon VI didn't seem to lack any will to me. And if you argue that we don't even know if he is a Blackfyre, much less a Targaryen, then yeah, this post is on the assumption that he is a Targ/Blackfyre. But the statement that the Blackfyre line is extinct in the male branch is a pretty important Chekov's gun, imo, and gives credence to the assumption that Aegon VI is a Blackfyre, if he is not a Targaryen. And as I said, this debate is why GRRM said that line about the third head not necessarily being a Targaryen.

[Wolf of The Wall]

Problem with your interpretation of fAegon is an actual dragon waiting to hatch is not accurate in my opinion. A cloth dragon sways on poles amidst a cheering crowd does not strike me as someone trying to brake free from his strings at all. There is no struggle in that depiction.

First who provides these visions. To Dany the Undying Ones, to Mel R'hllor, to Jojen Bloodraven, the Old Gods, CotF but on meta level it's GRRM himself. So if he wanted to convey the message fAegon/Young Griff is an actual dragon trying to become a man of his own will he would have choose a different representation than a  cloth dragon sways on poles amidst a cheering crowd. On top of my head for example a caged dragon trying to break free. That was my original objection. Quote on your OP and the later examples you gave are all have clear connections about their subject. Egg stops being a frightened kid and acts like a Prince of the realm --> an egg hatches and a dragon is born.

[lAPPYc]

24 minutes ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

A cloth dragon sways on poles amidst a cheering crowd does not strike me as someone trying to brake free from his strings at all. There is no struggle in that depiction.

I never said he was trying to break free of those strings in that vision. I said he was Mummer's Dragon in that vision. His struggle will come after, and his struggle is not at all related to the vision Dany saw. I never made such a claim.

25 minutes ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

So if he wanted to convey the message fAegon/Young Griff is an actual dragon trying to become a man of his own will he would have choose a different representation than a  cloth dragon sways on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

Again, that vision wasn't about his struggle. That vision was about his status at the time of his conquest of KL, at that time, the strings were real, and most probably invisible to him. I'm not basing my argument that he might hatch on that vision at all. In that vision, I'm only challenging the popular interpretation of the phrase "Slayer of Lies" that she has to kill Aegon to slay the lie. My argument for his hatching is based on his parallels with Aegon V and that dragons can hatch through their actions.

[Wolf of The Wall]

7 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

His struggle will come after, and his struggle is not at all related to the vision Dany saw.

How do you know this? Is it just a speculation or are there reasons (quotes, visions, foreshadowing) for it?

 

8 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

My argument for his hatching is based on his parallels with Aegon V and that dragons can hatch through their actions.

What parrallels? I don't see any.

[lAPPYc]

Just now, Wolf of The Wall said:

How do you know this? Is it just a speculation or are there reasons (quotes, visions, foreshadowing) for it?

I don't know this. I was responding to your question of where I see the struggle. Not in that vision. But the speculation is based on the reasoning: He will hatch(this is the theory), that means he will become a dragon from the image of mummer's dragon, the mummers probably won't like it, hence the struggle. The struggle could come before he conquers KL and he fails in that struggle, but that means he didn't hatch. So if the struggle isn't in the vision, and it isn't before the vision, it has to come after.

4 minutes ago, Wolf of The Wall said:

What parrallels? I don't see any.

Roamed around in secret. Squired for a knight that had a feud with his family. Trained by a knight that would later on become a White Sword. Same names. Unlikely kings (Ageon V was the fifth son of the fifth, and Aegon VI was supposed to be dead/is a member of almost extinct Blackfyre lineage)

[Wolf of The Wall]

17 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

He will hatch(this is the theory)

Not to be pedantic but it's not a theory it's a speculation. A theory should have basis on the text.

 

18 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

Squired for a knight that had a feud with his family. Trained by a knight that would later on become a White Sword. Unlikely kings (Ageon V was the fifth son of the fifth, and Aegon VI was supposed to be dead/is a member of almost extinct Blackfyre lineage)

JonCon has no problem with House Targaryen. That's why he feels obliged to help his (alleged) son. What Wihte Sword? Is fAegon trained by a Kingsguard? I missed that part. He is not a King.