Angel Eyes Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 So who is considered kin when kinslaying comes into play? Are there degrees of kinslaying that are more abhorrent than others? Are there parts of one's family that it is okay to kill, i.e. Robert killing his cousin Rhaegar? Are spouses considered kin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 It’s in the eye of the beholder. Rickard Karstark tried to call Robb a kinslayer but nobody else labelled him as one IIRC. In some cases it’s very clear-cut kinslaying, but it gets shady when it comes to second cousins and whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 40 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: So who is considered kin when kinslaying comes into play? Are there degrees of kinslaying that are more abhorrent than others? Are there parts of one's family that it is okay to kill, i.e. Robert killing his cousin Rhaegar? Are spouses considered kin? Spouces are not considered kin as Victarion does not consider himself a kinslayer. He does consider if you hire someone to slay your kin, does it count? Rhaegar was closer to blood with Robert then Robb and Karstark, so I guess. Kinslaying is like guest rights. Its only cursed in the eyes of men. Because gods arent real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaneSnow Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 What about killing a step-parent or a ward. Like if Jon killed Catelyn or if Ned killed Theon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 @Angel Eyes this may answer some of your questions. Maybe Kinslaying in Westeros Q: A ton of us Boarders have been debating the taboo against kinslaying in Westeros, and have been trying to define exactly what "kinslaying" is. Is it limited only to the situation where you kill a kinsman by your own hand, or would it include anything that leads to the death of a kinsman? In other words, had Renly's army defeated Stannis', and Stannis died in the battle at the hands of Loras Tyrell, would Renly still be considered a "kinslayer"? GRRM: Maybe by some, but that's a stretch. There are degrees in kinslaying, as in anything else. Fighting a battle in which a brother dies might be frowned upon, but killing him with your own hand would be considered far worse. In the scenario you propose, another factor might be whether Renly gave any orders in respect to Stannis. Did he command Loras to kill him, or offer a reward to whosoever slew his brother? Did he tell his men to see that his brother was taken alive? Did he not address the issue either way? There are obvious degrees of guilt, depending... The other factor, which you haven't raised, is degree of kinship. Killing a parent is probably worse than killing a sibling, but either one is a lot worse than killing a distant cousin. Lord Karstark was stretching that aspect of it when he tried to accuse Robb of kinslaying... but of course he was hoping to save his head. 4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: Are spouses considered kin? Maybe? But one thing is for sure, kin should never be considered spouses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Spouces are not considered kin as Victarion does not consider himself a kinslayer. He does consider if you hire someone to slay your kin, does it count? Rhaegar was closer to blood with Robert then Robb and Karstark, so I guess. Kinslaying is like guest rights. Its only cursed in the eyes of men. Because gods arent real It depends. Walder Frey is called one for the RW, because his wife was a Blackwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: So who is considered kin when kinslaying comes into play? I'm gonna venture to say --- mother, father, brother , sister. What is the curiosity? A Feast for Crows - Jaime I He never said he meant to kill our father. If he had, I would have stopped him. Then I would be the kinslayer, not him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Ice Spider Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Tyrion's charges in ASOS are regicide and kinslaying. So nephews count. To be honest, I'm surprised none of Robert's detractors label him kinslayer. It could be because they're maternal cousins. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unacosamedarisa Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 13 hours ago, JaneSnow said: What about killing a step-parent or a ward Theon is considered by many to be a Kinslayer for the murder of Bran and Rickon. Quote Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer." ADwD, A Ghost in Winterfell Quote "Not us." Rowan grabbed him by the throat and shoved him back against the barracks wall, her face an inch from his. "Say it again and I will rip your lying tongue out, kinslayer." ADwD, Theon I So it seems to apply to foster siblings like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormking902 Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Kinslaying IMO is for sure Brother, Mother, Sister, Brother, Aunt, Uncle, and first cousins. Robert is technically a kinslayer but they were on opposite sides in a war and one was killed in FAIR combat, both men had an even chance to kill the other so its one of those situational times GRRM was talking about. Noone expected either man to just allow the other to kill them lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted July 23, 2018 Author Share Posted July 23, 2018 22 hours ago, Stormking902 said: Kinslaying IMO is for sure Brother, Mother, Sister, Brother, Aunt, Uncle, and first cousins. Robert is technically a kinslayer but they were on opposite sides in a war and one was killed in FAIR combat, both men had an even chance to kill the other so its one of those situational times GRRM was talking about. Noone expected either man to just allow the other to kill them lol. And nobody batted an eye at killing their relatives in the Dance of the Dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaneSnow Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 I suppose one advantage to Sansa marrying Tyrion would be that it made her his aunt therefore if he killed her it would be kingslaying. Not like he'd be opposed to such an act but the public would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 14 hours ago, JaneSnow said: I suppose one advantage to Sansa marrying Tyrion would be that it made her his aunt therefore if he killed her it would be kingslaying. Not like he'd be opposed to such an act but the public would be. Wut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 15 hours ago, JaneSnow said: I suppose one advantage to Sansa marrying Tyrion would be that it made her his aunt therefore if he killed her it would be kingslaying. Not like he'd be opposed to such an act but the public would be. What do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Leonardo said: Wut 13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: What do you mean? My guess is she means Sansa-technically she was Joffrey's aunt. Btw @Angel Eyes, I wondered about this too. I once opened a thread questioning whether Tywin's approval of Robb's murder was kinslaying or not (exactly because of Sansa-Tyrion marriage). Almost every member was on opinion that it wasn't, since non-blood relations are not considered kinslaying. But if it wasn't the war, and it was a regular wedding between Sansa/Tyrion, and if Robb, Tyrion's brother-in-law and brother of Tywin's daughter-in-law (gooddaughter), would've been murdered on the orders of the latter's father (for whatever reason), I think the society would've seen it differently, although probably not as harsh as kinslaying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Whatever degree of kinship those in power want to enforce at the given time/incident. (Which is pretty much always the answer.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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