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kissdbyfire

The execution of Janos Slynt was spot on

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I just got home from driving around town, soooo bookmarking for now, but before I go, YES, it is rather clear what the intention of the author is with Jon and his “killing the boy to let the man be born” character development that is shown in this chapter. I mean, this chapter literally starts off with a hard lesson in life and how Jon is progressing from asking to commanding. It is tough, but great character development. 

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Oh, come on, that get's ridiculous now ;-).

In relation to those 'military parallels' a lot of people are arguing from, I'd like to say that we don't know that 'superior officers' do follow modern military protocol. This is a feudal world. Nobles have more rights than commoners, and Slynt was a lord. 

The Watch, the Warrior's Sons, and the Kingsguard are military orders, not exactly a proper military. Do we think the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard can (or rather: should) execute a Kingsguard on the spot for refusing an order?

I'm not saying Jon had no right to punish or even kill Slynt - the interesting question is whether that was a smart decision, especially in comparison to his other actions.

In a sense, Slynt is just a pawn sacrifice. He isn't important, he isn't smart, and he doesn't really have his own faction - he was just the puppet men like Thorne and Marsh and others could prop up and get elected and thought they could control - and he looked good because he had 'connections' to the likely victors in the civil war. Connections they actually need to prevent the Others from making short work out of the Watch and the North.

Killing Slynt showed the Watch that Jon shouldn't be underestimated, but that's all it did. It didn't resolve any of his problems. And he increased them by sending away the men he might be able to count upon, starting with Green and Pyp, but continuing with Edd, and many other men he could rely on.

A really smart move would have been to fire Marsh, and make him the commander of some empty castle and make Slynt Lord Steward in Marsh's place. That would have been a sign that Jon wanted to be the LC of the entire Watch as well as a sign that he remained neutral and was willing to live up to the ideals of the Watch. 

If he had sucked at that job, he could have sacked him hard, even more if he refused the position in the first place.

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"Janos Slynt has a good many friends"-Janos Slynt

"Mance Rayder wants to parley with us. He knows he has no chance now that Janos Slynt has come, so he wants to talk."- Janos Slynt

"No traitor's bastard gives commands to Janos Slynt! -Janos Slynt 

"You might have fooled this crippled blacksmith, but not Janos Slynt! Oh, no. Janos Slynt does not swallow lies so easily." Janos Slynt

Janos Slynt likes to refer himself in the 3rd person when he speaks of his accomplishments, especially when he's angry. He's also really proud of being the lord of Harrenhal for a few months despite never having been to the castle when he was it's lord. I still think he believes he's the lord of Harrenhal even after he joins the Night's Watch.

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So how does the Night's Watch typically conduct executions? Do they hang them? Decapitation? Does the Night's Watch have an executioner? Or does the Lord Commander personally execute people, i.e. hanging or decapitation?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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That doesn't sound remotely smart at all. Canning a good Lord Steward who had risked his life personally leading the Watch in battle in favor of a guy who showed up with an intention of killing you and a long history of corruption seems bizarre. 

As to executions at the Wall, off hand the only obvious example we have was the tale of the seventy-nine sentinels, deserters who were captured and buried alive in the Wall. I'm guessing it's whatever it pleases the Lord Commander to do.

Edited by Ran

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10 minutes ago, Ran said:

That doesn't sound remotely smart at all. Canning a good Lord Steward who had risked his life personally leading the Watch in battle in favor of a guy who showed up with an intention of killing you and a long history of corruption seems bizarre. 

Indeed. Marsh is not an evil man, Slynt is. Slynt is a man who'd do anything - and I do mean anything - to please whoever he wanted to ingratiate himself with. Marsh isn't like that. Martin paints Slynt almost a caricature moustache-twirling villain. I mean, every single time we see or hear of Janos Slynt it's in connection to some vile and despicable act he is involved with. Marsh is a bigot and has many other flaws, but he's not an evil man, and he believes he is acting for the greater good. He isn't, imo, but he thinks he is, and that alone puts him light-years away from Slynt.  

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

As to executions at the Wall, off hand the only obvious example we have was the tale of the seventy-nine sentinels, deserters who were captured and buried alive in the Wall. I'm guessing it's whatever it pleases the Lord Commander to do.

That's a good point, and one I tired to make earlier. The argument that a sentence is "too harsh" or "too lenient" is subjective to a degree. And ultimately, it boils down to whatever the Lord Commander (I am specifically talking about the NW here) sees as a fit punishment. Because of that, I think it's unlikely that we'd often get the exact same response to any given offence by any two LC. 

And that turns the question into, "was LC acting outside or inside his purview when he did X?". And the answer in this specific case is painfully clear: Jon acted 100% inside his purview when he executed Janos Slynt. 

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@Julia H., carrying this over from the previous thread (the one w/ the misleading and downright erroneous heading :D )
 
"Exactly. As for the rest, Theon never met Balon after disobeying him, in the case of Davos,  Stannis knew in his heart that Davos was morally right and that Davos was still loyal to him (this concept just doesn't apply to Slynt), and regarding Cat, Starks simply do not kill women, ever,  not even when they are enemies,  much less their own mothers - which would also be kinslaying."
---
 
Can you imagine Davos telling Stannis to shove anything up hid arse?
 
:laugh:
 
 

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Replying from last thread.

@Ladyfever Yes, in a different situation Tyrion should have ordered his men to kill the Hound. Desertion is punishable by death, it almost brought a loss for Tyrions battle and his nose. However the Hounds big and Bronn and the wildlings werent there.

@JuliaH Good point about Theon and Dagmar. In regards to Stannis he doesnt know hes right, he wanted to wake a dragon. We dont know how Davos was saved, in all likely hood it was Meli not Stannis. With Cat and Starks not killing women, ive never heard that before but is it the same with Tully? And treason trumps kin. As Stannis said about the Realms Delight dying by dragons.

About the quote, I was wrong

 

"Form up," he shouted as he leapt to the ground. The gate moved under the impact of another blow. "Who commands here? You're going out."

"No." A shadow detached itself from the shadow of the wall, to become a tall man in dark grey armor. Sandor Clegane wrenched off his helm with both hands and let it fall to the ground. The steel was scorched and dented, the left ear of the snarling hound sheared off. A gash above one eye had sent a wash of blood down across the Hound's old burn scars, masking half his face.

"Yes." Tyrion faced him.

Clegane's breath came ragged. "Bugger that. And you."

 

 

These people committed crimes more severe then refusing a post far from court in uncomfortable living and hard work. After all when Jon swung his sword he should have been thinking along the lines of 

 

The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

 

Which im not sure he did. 

Not to say killing Janos wasn't good, it delayed his murder. If he killed or exiled Marsh then hed still be alive. Its the Tywin in me, when shit hits the fan kill your advisors

Edited by Hugorfonics

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11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed. Marsh is not an evil man, Slynt is. Slynt is a man who'd do anything - and I do mean anything - to please whoever he wanted to ingratiate himself with. Marsh isn't like that. Martin paints Slynt almost a caricature moustache-twirling villain. I mean, every single time we see or hear of Janos Slynt it's in connection to some vile and despicable act he is involved with. Marsh is a bigot and has many other flaws, but he's not an evil man, and he believes he is acting for the greater good. He isn't, imo, but he thinks he is, and that alone puts him light-years away from Slynt.  

I didnt get that impression about Slynt, at least not as strong. He ordererd the death of the children because Cersei commanded, its similar to Sandor. We see Sandors conflict within himself because hes a secondary character, Janos has less story time. I wouldn't call him evil, hes far from the Mountain or a Bolton or Tywin

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19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Replying from last thread.

@Ladyfever Yes, in a different situation Tyrion should have ordered his men to kill the Hound. Desertion is punishable by death, it almost brought a loss for Tyrions battle and his nose. However the Hounds big and Bronn and the wildlings werent there.

@JuliaH Good point about Theon and Dagmar. In regards to Stannis he doesnt know hes right, he wanted to wake a dragon. We dont know how Davos was saved, in all likely hood it was Meli not Stannis. With Cat and Starks not killing women, ive never heard that before but is it the same with Tully? And treason trumps kin. As Stannis said about the Realms Delight dying by dragons.

About the quote, I was wrong

 

"Form up," he shouted as he leapt to the ground. The gate moved under the impact of another blow. "Who commands here? You're going out."

"No." A shadow detached itself from the shadow of the wall, to become a tall man in dark grey armor. Sandor Clegane wrenched off his helm with both hands and let it fall to the ground. The steel was scorched and dented, the left ear of the snarling hound sheared off. A gash above one eye had sent a wash of blood down across the Hound's old burn scars, masking half his face.

"Yes." Tyrion faced him.

Clegane's breath came ragged. "Bugger that. And you."

 

 

These people committed crimes less severe then refusing a post far from court in uncomfortable living and hard work. After all when Jon swung his sword he should have been thinking along the lines of 

 

The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

 

Which im not sure he did. 

Not to say killing Janos wasn't good, it delayed his murder. If he killed or exiled Marsh then hed still be alive. Its the Tywin in me, when shit hits the fan kill your advisors

Honestly, it wasn't a different situation........that's why my point was basically a rhetorical question. 

 

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Original thread here:

going over 20 pages so we can carry on here once that gets locked. 

I should whack you with a wet noodle.  :P

I can't wait for some more

#BizarroIceAndFire

 

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6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I didnt get that impression about Slynt, at least not as strong. He ordererd the death of the children because Cersei commanded, its similar to Sandor. We see Sandors conflict within himself because hes a secondary character, Janos has less story time.

But as you say, w/ Sandor we see the inner conflict. Not w/ Slynt. And the fact that Martin chose to show inner conflict for one but not the other is telling in and of itself. Sure, Sandor is an actual character, w/ his own story whereas Slynt is almost a plot device. Still, the fact remains that Martin paints Slynt in the worst possible light. Ever single time he is mentioned, it's in connection to something nasty he's done or was involved with somehow. Just look at the chapter where Stannis tells the crows they have to decide on a new LC or he will decide for them. The way Slynt kisses Stannis arse is truly pathetic. And truly telling... after all, this is Janos "I have friends in KL" Slynt. Only when he realises the Lannisters hold no true power at the Wall and won't be able to help him even if they wanted to, which they don't, of course, he tries to ingratiate himself w/ Stannis. And I'll repeat once more: Martin, ever the very deliberate writer, chose to depict Slynt as he did. 

 

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I wouldn't call him evil, hes far from the Mountain or a Bolton or Tywin

Well... I'd wager he'd be just as bad or worse if ever he'd found himself in their positions. Except for Ramsay coz he's mentally ill but the rest? I sure can see Slynt raping and murdering and ordering rapes and murders if he thought that would be somehow to his benefit. 

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13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But as you say, w/ Sandor we see the inner conflict. Not w/ Slynt. And the fact that Martin chose to show inner conflict for one but not the other is telling in and of itself. Sure, Sandor is an actual character, w/ his own story whereas Slynt is almost a plot device. Still, the fact remains that Martin paints Slynt in the worst possible light. Ever single time he is mentioned, it's in connection to something nasty he's done or was involved with somehow. Just look at the chapter where Stannis tells the crows they have to decide on a new LC or he will decide for them. The way Slynt kisses Stannis arse is truly pathetic. And truly telling... after all, this is Janos "I have friends in KL" Slynt. Only when he realises the Lannisters hold no true power at the Wall and won't be able to help him even if they wanted to, which they don't, of course, he tries to ingratiate himself w/ Stannis. And I'll repeat once more: Martin, ever the very deliberate writer, chose to depict Slynt as he did. 

 

Well... I'd wager he'd be just as bad or worse if ever he'd found himself in their positions. Except for Ramsay coz he's mentally ill but the rest? I sure can see Slynt raping and murdering and ordering rapes and murders if he thought that would be somehow to his benefit. 

Kissing Stannis' ass was petty but its not evil. Martin tells the world through his povs. So when Sansa sees ugly smallfolk and Jon sees the man who killed his father and is trying to kill him, thats the light. 

I would take that wager. Janos says it takes a special person to do these crimes. I would not put him on the same shelf as the Mountain and his men or the Brave Companions or Joffreys KG who beat Sansa nor Cersei or Tywin or Ramsay and thr Ghiscari nobles. The nigjt is dark and full of terrors, Janos doesnt make top 10.

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Whether or not the execution was just is secondary. Is executing Slynt practical the bigger question. It'd been just to have hanged or beheaded or just scouraged  Jon for any number of his infractions; such as attempting to kill his superior officer, attempting to desert should(if we're looking at what is just), should have ended him having been hanged, or beheaded. Even his game of having all the new trainees, deliberately make it so that Sam does not really need to go through basic training should earn him a lashing, and if news of his threat to murder a trainiee over this reached an officer's ear, Jon should be investigated, and hanged. 

But Jon doesn't get any of his rightful punishments; because it simply would not be practical given what's happening. I have a feeling on large part on him being a favored by House Stark; if they did severely chastize Jon, it runs a risk of alienating the Watch's biggest patrons(I doubt very much if any peasant-born tried to murder his superior over having his feelings hurt they would have sent him to his room and allowed him to keep his direwolf and talked about what's to be done with him as if it's a question what he deserves) and given there's a coming wildling invasion and there's dead people walking, the watch cannot afford to take the chance. Jon not getting justice for his actions I will not chastize Mormont for.  Nor would I chastize Jon should have let Mance go and demanded the turncoat deliver Arya to Stannis instead of the wall-Arya can be put to greater with Stannis than in Braavos; Stannis needs her as both a trophy  and to more firmly secure his hold upon the north; likely have her married off to one of his allies after killing Ramsey. It's not justice to let a man guilty of murder, and breaking his oaths to the watch go just because he's helping Stannis' war effort but it'd be more practical than simply executing the man for all his crimes  gaining absolutely nothing and wasting Mance's potential use. It is not justice nor practical however to let the man go just because Jon is being given a favor, the favor being to save his 11 year old sister; understandble; just not justice.

Slynt's execution does not seem to be necessary.  Jon's reasons for why Slynt can't be given any less than death are contradictory to his earlier thoughts and extremely weak. Slynt by Jon's words was sent to greyguard in part so Slynt and Thorne would not be able to plot; fast track to comptemplating what punishment should Slynt be given suddenly Thorne and Slynt are going to be able to plot together regardless, directly contradicting Jon's own reasoning. Desertion is another reason. It's weak. Very weak. Not many if any are going to desert a castle this close to winter and wade Stannis' allied territory just to end up at another castle in Lanister friendly. A castle pretty certain to just hang them anyway because they've lost all practical use to the lanisters given that they just deserted and would not pardon turncoats.

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I would take that wager. Janos says it takes a special person to do these crimes. I would not put him on the same shelf as the Mountain and his men or the Brave Companions or Joffreys KG who beat Sansa nor Cersei or Tywin or Ramsay and thr Ghiscari nobles. The nigjt is dark and full of terrors, Janos doesnt make top 10.

I do more or less agree here. I don't think I've made myself very clear before, apologies. 

What I meant was that while Slynt is not "on the same shelf" as the ones you mentioned, I am not convinced he wouldn't grow into in if put in a situation where whatever despicable act would be in his best interest. 

For instance - and following the current "what if" trend... What happens if Slynt is ordered by Tywin to "dispose" of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon? Would he do it, or wouldn't he?  

And the answer is very clear given what the author gives us on the character imo. 

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13 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Did Slynt ever take the Nights Watch vow?

Funny enough, while I was in the car earlier and was listening to a Jon ASOS chapter, I started to wonder the same thing. I am assuming that he (Slynt) did, and that he did so at Eastwatch-by-the-sea... but I have not had a chance to look yet.

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