The execution of Janos Slynt was spot on

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Exactly. You can almost imagine what Slynt was getting ready to say, and it wasn't "thank you Lord Commander, I realise now the error of my ways. I apologise and promise to work with you in all things in the future". 

I can't see how anyone can conceive that, had Jon relented from punishing Slynt, that he and his fellows would have gone away thinking "that Jon fellow really isn't so bad", rather than "the traitor's bastard can't even follow through on his own decisions". 

Abso-fucking-lutely. Truly mind-boggling to say the least.

[Hugorfonics]

24 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Aren't you confusing this with the show? The book Slynt got scared only before the very chopping time.

If Sandor's behaviour towards Tyrion warranted execution, I'm sure the thought would have crossed Tyrion's mind at some point. However, Hand is not a military commander, and deliberate, premeditated insolence towards a military commander along with complete dejection of his orders and authority at a time of crisis is a totally different league. That's why comparing other character's disobedience just never cuts it.

He seems scared to me, not like Sandor but something.

"You will have thirty men. Ten from here, ten from the Shadow Tower, and ten lent to us by King Stannis."

Slynt's face had turned the color of a prune. His meaty jowls began to quiver. "Do you think I cannot see what you are doing? Janos Slynt is not a man to be gulled so easily

The Hand speaks with the kings voice and the king is the king. The Hand is the military commander. 

What crisis? There was no battle like Sandor was in. Janos is smallfolk, he never learned manners, in contrast to Sandor who says bugger you. I think they're apt comparisons

25 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Yes, plenty. 

Seriously?

Obedience must be enforced in every military organization. Your examples of disobedient family members (Cat, Theon), runaway (so physically not punishable) soldiers (Sandor) and a man long-time loyal and still trusted by his commander (Davos) are rather self-explanatory exceptions. Clearly, the very fact that Jon Snow gives Slynt a second and a third chance and the fact that he considers various kinds of punishment shows that execution is not a "must" in every single case when disobedience occurs. For example, if Slynt had reconsidered his standpoint by the second day and had left for Greyguard, there would have been no execution for his temporary disobedience.

It is Slynt who takes the situation to the extreme, it is Slynt who shows himself to be totally unwilling to obey (very basic) orders or to respect the Lord Commander and through him the very organization he is supposed to be serving, and it is Slynt who proves to be not only useless but harmful as he is working to undermine the Lord Commander's authority in an extremely critical situation, disregarding the danger he may bring on everyone, it is Slynt who shows himself unable to take a verbal warning - and all that happening while he is already serving a sentence for his crimes. As I said, obedience must be enforced in any military organization, but especially so in the NW. Execution is a "must" only when there is no other way though. Slynt was such a case. He was not a novice in the military, and he knew exactly what he was doing, and he did not care, because he (falsely) believed himself to be immune. 

Is there any text that you can quote which shows that Slynt is regarded by anyone as a martyr? 

 Next time your there, fetch me a block

Yeah, seriously the long nights starting, nows not the time to kill your brother. The only other time of disobedience i can think of in asoiaf is Karstark. But he took Robbs disobedience to another leval and murdered two children. Regardless, executing Karstark may have been how Robb lost the war.

To shift the conversation slightly, if Janos occupied Greyguard would he be loyal and sweep up like Jon asks? Do you believe Alliser is respectfuly ranging for the good of Lord Snows Watch?

I do not have text that use the word martyr. I do have (lmk) Janos conspiring with the men who assisted Marsh in murder, Janos claiming he has many friends, and roughly 30% of the NW voting for him.

[Unacosamedarisa]

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yeah, seriously the long nights starting, nows not the time to kill your brother.

No. Now is not the time to disobey your Lord Commander, and insult him to his face, infront of the other members of the Watch, when he gives you an offer of a command and a second chance. Now is not the time to undermine the authority of the Lord Commander. 

Now is also not the time for Jon to allow insubordination, or to allow his leadership and authority to be questioned and undermined. 

Janos refused an order, twice. What use was he going to be to the Watch if he refused orders? None. 

[Julia H.]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Next time your there, fetch me a block

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yeah, seriously the long nights starting, nows not the time to kill your brother. 

That's why Janos shouldn't have tried to get Jon killed during the siege. Jon had proved himself very useful in battle. Janos, unfortunately, proves utterly disloyal and harmful rather than useful. He explicitly says he is not willing to freeze and die for the NW. Sure, Jon could send him on vacation to the Summer Isles to preserve this valuable fighting force, but ... come on. 

The rest has already been said by @Unacosamedarisa  better than I would have said. 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

To shift the conversation slightly, if Janos occupied Greyguard would he be loyal and sweep up like Jon asks? Do you believe Alliser is respectfuly ranging for the good of Lord Snows Watch?

I don't believe the latter at all. But Jon gave him the chance to do it, just as he had given a chance to Slynt to prove himself useful and loyal. The order Slynt received was honourable and as relevant to his professional experience as it could be.  

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I do not have text that use the word martyr. I do have (lmk) Janos conspiring with the men who assisted Marsh in murder, Janos claiming he has many friends, and roughly 30% of the NW voting for him.

That doesn't make him a martyr. Marsh didn't say he was killing Jon "for the Slynt". Everybody saw how much Slynt's "many friends" were worth. He had been stripped of title, rank, estate, sent to a penal colony, where he never won the election, and though he believed himself to be untouchable, he was punished for disobedience exactly as he deserved to be. 

[Julia H.]

On the topic of what sort of person Slynt was… Just musing here, but he seems to check quite a few boxes for a common psychopath.

Based on this article:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mindmelding/201706/9-clues-you-may-be-dealing-psychopath

Psychopaths are uncaring and show “callous unconcern for the feelings of others”. (No emotion over the murder of a baby.)

They “show a lack of emotion, especially social emotions, such as shame, guilt and embarrassment”. (Seems to fit well enough.)

Irresponsibility: They “blame others for things that are actually their fault”. (I may be wrong, but that might explain Slynt’s irrational hatred for all things Stark after he ends up in the NW: His downfall was remotely related to the execution of Ned Stark, after all.)

Insincere speech: “inflating and distorting it towards selfish ends” (“I am the Lord of Harrenhal…” - when he is just a convict.) “They also have trouble understanding metaphors…” (Ignoring the naked steel in his Lord Commander’s hand? )

Overconfidence: a “grandiose sense of self-worth”. (He has many friends… no traitor’s bastard can give him command … keep your ruin, boy … call me m’lord, etc.)  

Narrowing of attention: deficient in the ability to alter their activity or modulate responses, “depending on relevant peripheral information that appears after the task has begun” (not really taking in that Jon Snow is now Lord Commander?).

Selfishness and egocentricity (seems to apply).

Inability to plan for future (I can’t really assess that, he certainly has plans to become LC of NW – does that mean this point cannot apply?)

Violence and aggression, including “very low tolerance of frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence (his treatment of Jon Snow shows this low tolerance and a lot of verbal aggression at least, but we don’t see him getting into a physical fight, IIRC).

I just thought it might be interesting to some of you. If not, just ignore it. 

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I do not have text that use the word martyr. I do have (lmk) Janos conspiring with the men who assisted Marsh in murder, Janos claiming he has many friends, and roughly 30% of the NW voting for him.

The only person we know of that took part in the assasination of Jon with Marsh that was talking to Marsh and Thorne about supporting Slynt was Yarwick. And if you recall, Marsh and Thorne weren’t able to convince Yarwick to vote for Slynt. In fact Yarwick in the end even states that “might be Snow would be better [than Slynt]”. 

Janos’ idea of his popularity can’t be objectively seen as an actual measure of his popularity. The idiot keeps overestimating how popular and powerful he is. The only people we know of actively lobbying for Slynt at the watch are Thorne and Marsh. Marsh does so because he reads a letter from Tywin that refers to Slynt as his faithful friend and servant but we know that nobody in KL (not even LF) cared a flying fig about Slynt’s predicament. He was just a pawn. 

How many men opposed Jon when he executed Slynt? Marsh gave a sigh of relief when for a brief moment he thought Jon had changed his mind, and whatever Thorne’s feelings were he didn’t act upon it. That’s the extent of the support for Slynt we see right before he was executed.

I don’t know where you are getting the 30% of the NW voting for Slynt from. In the last count before Jon’s name was added to the ballot, Slynt got 23% (137 of 588) of the votes cast. We don’t know the final tally in the choosing once Jon’s name was added, all we know is that Jon won by a landslide.

We have no evidence that there was resentment towards Jon because he executed Slynt or that Slynt was seen as a “martyr” as you say. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

That doesn't make him a martyr. Marsh didn't say he was killing Jon "for the Slynt".

   

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

He seems scared to me, not like Sandor but something.

"You will have thirty men. Ten from here, ten from the Shadow Tower, and ten lent to us by King Stannis."

Slynt's face had turned the color of a prune. His meaty jowls began to quiver. "Do you think I cannot see what you are doing? Janos Slynt is not a man to be gulled so easily

Never heard about people turning purple when they are scared, that's the usual description of anger. He thinks Jon is looking for an inconspicuous way to off him without getting his hands dirty, which is what Slynt would have done himself - had done, in fact, when he sent Jon to kill Mance. The quote goes on:

Slynt’s face had turned the color of a prune. His meaty jowls began to quiver. “Do you think I cannot see what you are doing? Janos Slynt is not a man to be gulled so easily. I was charged with the defense of King’s Landing when you were soiling your swaddling clothes. Keep your ruin, bastard.”
I am giving you a chance, my lord. It is more than you ever gave my father. “You mistake me, my lord,” Jon said. “That was a command, not an offer. It is forty leagues to Greyguard. Pack up your arms and armor, say your farewells, and be ready to depart at first light on the morrow.”
“No.” Lord Janos lurched to his feet, sending his chair crashing over backwards. “I will not go meekly off to freeze and die. No traitor’s bastard gives commands to Janos Slynt! I am not without friends, I warn you. Here, and in King’s Landing too. I was the Lord of Harrenhal! Give your ruin to one of the blind fools who cast a stone for you, I will not have it. Do you hear me, boy? I will not have it!”
“You will.”
Slynt did not deign to answer that, but he kicked the chair aside as he departed.
He still sees me as a boy, Jon thought, a green boy, to be cowed by angry words.

Nothing in the passage indicates fear, Slynt is merely pissed at being ordered about by a bastard and supposedly sent on a suicide mission. He is not afraid in the least because he considers himself untouchable and thinks he can defy Jon's authority. Here is when Slynt becomes afraid:

Janos Slynt’s face went as white as milk. The spoon slipped from his fingers.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

The Hand speaks with the kings voice and the king is the king. The Hand is the military commander. 

Nonsense. He can issue commands but he is not part of a military order. Of course his orders are to be obeyed, but he is not a part of an organisation whose members are sworn to one goal.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

What crisis? There was no battle like Sandor was in. Janos is smallfolk, he never learned manners, in contrast to Sandor who says bugger you. I think they're apt comparisons

What crisis? Wildlings attacking the Wall en masse, the dead walking, the Watch decimated, most of its officers dead, that's not crisis for you?

Plus, you keep ignoring that Sandor lost his nerve, due to his phobia of fire, and under normal circumstances, would have carried out the order. No such mitigating circumstances for Slynt.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Do you believe Alliser is respectfuly ranging for the good of Lord Snows Watch?

Not really sure. Alliser hates Jon's gut and has been depicted as an antagonist from the get go, but I do believe there is some grain of honor and duty left in him. It would be a nice twist if he, say, saw something in the woods that would make him see the light/wight? and he, albeit grudgingly, would have to admit that Jon was in the right.

28 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

On the topic of what sort of person Slynt was… Just musing here, but he seems to check quite a few boxes for a common psychopath.

A while back, I called him a ruthless bully. I guess these personality traits might account for that, as well.

[Tagganaro]

4 minutes ago, teej6 said:

The only person we know of that took part in the assasination of Jon with Marsh that was talking to Marsh and Thorne about supporting Slynt was Yarwick. And if you recall, Marsh and Thorne weren’t able to convince Yarwick to vote for Slynt. In fact Yarwick in the end even states that “might be Snow would be better [than Slynt]”. 

I may be mistaken, but I thought Othell Yarwyck was not involved in the assassination (or at least we don't know).  We know of only 2 people (although 4 knives are mentioned) and that's Marsh and Wick Whittlestick (both stewards).  Jon specifically notices Marsh, Wick, Alf of Runnymud, and Left-Hand Lew as a group together.  He notices Yarwyck with his builders, and then notices all the men (including Yarwyck) leaving during his speech.  It is unclear after that who is present for Jon's assassination attempt out of those men, but it may stand to reason that the 4 knives are the 4 stewards Jon notices.  

[teej6]

12 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I may be mistaken, but I thought Othell Yarwyck was not involved in the assassination (or at least we don't know).  We know of only 2 people (although 4 knives are mentioned) and that's Marsh and Wick Whittlestick (both stewards).  Jon specifically notices Marsh, Wick, Alf of Runnymud, and Left-Hand Lew as a group together.  He notices Yarwyck with his builders, and then notices all the men (including Yarwyck) leaving during his speech.  It is unclear after that who is present for Jon's assassination attempt out of those men, but it may stand to reason that the 4 knives are the 4 stewards Jon notices.  

You are right, I was mistaken. Only Marsh and Wick are mentioned as the people who stab Jon. So, then we have only Marsh as one of Slynt’s backers who we have as a confirmed mutineer. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

No. Now is not the time to disobey your Lord Commander, and insult him to his face, infront of the other members of the Watch, when he gives you an offer of a command and a second chance. Now is not the time to undermine the authority of the Lord Commander. 

Now is also not the time for Jon to allow insubordination, or to allow his leadership and authority to be questioned and undermined. 

Janos refused an order, twice. What use was he going to be to the Watch if he refused orders? None. 

What is he Joffrey? Jon never declared emergency powers or marshal law and even if he did thats hardly an excuse. Tyrion tells Joff what happens to kings like Aerys who do what they like, as Jon tells Stannis kill me and youll just have the 999th commander. He was chosen by his brothers he can be removed by his brothers, theres precedent i.e Nights King.

Yea, you can throw him in prison untill he sings like Karstark and give him some other task

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

That's why Janos shouldn't have tried to get Jon killed during the siege. Jon had proved himself very useful in battle. Janos, unfortunately, proves utterly disloyal and harmful rather than useful. He explicitly says he is not willing to freeze and die for the NW. Sure, Jon could send him on vacation to the Summer Isles to preserve this valuable fighting force, but ... come on. 

Janos doesnt trust Jon. Theres no reason for him to doubt Neds guilt, and bastards are stereotyped as untrustworthy. The fact that he was under investigation for being a turncloak (and a warg) capitalizes that. Jon did save everyone and win the battle, but Janos is an idiot (and wasnt there)

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

I don't believe the latter at all. But Jon gave him the chance to do it, just as he had given a chance to Slynt to prove himself useful and loyal. The order Slynt received was honourable and as relevant to his professional experience as it could be.  

That doesn't make him a martyr. Marsh didn't say he was killing Jon "for the Slynt". Everybody saw how much Slynt's "many friends" were worth. He had been stripped of title, rank, estate, sent to a penal colony, where he never won the election, and though he believed himself to be untouchable, he was punished for disobedience exactly as he deserved to be. 

Right? Wheres Ser Alliser? Im sure hes scheming.

Honorable? Hes given a hard job that will take a long time to do, far from CB and all the action. Its also where Jon climbed so wildlings. Or whatever may try again soon, especially if theyre Jons friends like he thinks.

Lol for the Slynt. I hope that becomes a thing.

So, I discovered that whenever a character dies the storys enhanced. Cause and effect, people dont die for no reason. Ned creates war, Joffrey creates trouble at KL, even cousin Frey gave Jaime a sword to attack Brienne with. Janos' death did little, which is shy i think it did a lot. Jons laws seemed crazy, like feeding wildlings or attacking Bolton. His tyranny can be traced back to executing Janos. 

[Unacosamedarisa]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

What is he Joffrey? Jon never declared emergency powers or marshal law and even if he did thats hardly an excuse. Tyrion tells Joff what happens to kings like Aerys who do what they like, as Jon tells Stannis kill me and youll just have the 999th commander. He was chosen by his brothers he can be removed by his brothers, theres precedent i.e Nights King.

Jon doesn't need "emergency powers", or "marshal law", concepts completely alien to Westeros, and even more so to the medieval penal battalion. There's no comparison between Jon and Joffrey here... Jon is executing a mutinous insubordinate, who is refusing an order given by his commanding officer. Joffrey was having Sansa stripped and beaten infront of the court. 

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, you can throw him in prison untill he sings like Karstark and give him some other task

Or, more likely, he doubles down on his hatred for Jon, and, once released, ups his efforts to undermine him. 

[Hugorfonics]

25 minutes ago, teej6 said:

You are right, I was mistaken. Only Marsh and Wick are mentioned as the people who stab Jon. So, then we have only Marsh as one of Slynt’s backers who was also a mutineer. 

I always assumed it was Yarwick. Maybe Alliser, but that seems far fetched.

 

44 minutes ago, teej6 said:

The only person we know of that took part in the assasination of Jon with Marsh that was talking to Marsh and Thorne about supporting Slynt was Yarwick. And if you recall, Marsh and Thorne weren’t able to convince Yarwick to vote for Slynt. In fact Yarwick in the end even states that “might be Snow would be better [than Slynt]”. 

Janos’ idea of his popularity can’t be objectively seen as an actual measure of his popularity. The idiot keeps overestimating how popular and powerful he is. The only people we know of actively lobbying for Slynt at the watch are Thorne and Marsh. Marsh does so because he reads a letter from Tywin that refers to Slynt as his faithful friend and servant but we know that nobody in KL (not even LF) cared a flying fig about Slynt’s predicament. He was just a pawn. 

How many men opposed Jon when he executed Slynt? Marsh gave a sigh of relief when for a brief moment he thought Jon had changed his mind, and whatever Thorne’s feelings were he didn’t act upon it. That’s the extent of the support for Slynt we see right before he was executed.

I don’t know where you are getting the 30% of the NW voting for Slynt from. In the last count before Jon’s name was added to the ballot, Slynt got 23% (137 of 588) of the votes cast. We don’t know the final tally in the choosing once Jon’s name was added, all we know is that Jon won by a landslide.

We have no evidence that there was resentment towards Jon because he executed Slynt or that Slynt was seen as a “martyr” as you say. 

Yarwick changed his mind though, hes complaining to Jon day in and out. I dont thimk Janos approched Yarwick though, I think Alliser did and after Janos died he redoubled his effort.

Obviously no ones gonna oppose Jon.

23% and none from Mallister or Pykes castles so largly CB.

37 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Never heard about people turning purple when they are scared, that's the usual description of anger. He thinks Jon is looking for an inconspicuous way to off him without getting his hands dirty, which is what Slynt would have done himself - had done, in fact, when he sent Jon to kill Mance. The quote goes on:

Slynt’s face had turned the color of a prune. His meaty jowls began to quiver. “Do you think I cannot see what you are doing? Janos Slynt is not a man to be gulled so easily. I was charged with the defense of King’s Landing when you were soiling your swaddling clothes. Keep your ruin, bastard.”
I am giving you a chance, my lord. It is more than you ever gave my father. “You mistake me, my lord,” Jon said. “That was a command, not an offer. It is forty leagues to Greyguard. Pack up your arms and armor, say your farewells, and be ready to depart at first light on the morrow.”
“No.” Lord Janos lurched to his feet, sending his chair crashing over backwards. “I will not go meekly off to freeze and die. No traitor’s bastard gives commands to Janos Slynt! I am not without friends, I warn you. Here, and in King’s Landing too. I was the Lord of Harrenhal! Give your ruin to one of the blind fools who cast a stone for you, I will not have it. Do you hear me, boy? I will not have it!”
“You will.”
Slynt did not deign to answer that, but he kicked the chair aside as he departed.
He still sees me as a boy, Jon thought, a green boy, to be cowed by angry words.

Nothing in the passage indicates fear, Slynt is merely pissed at being ordered about by a bastard and supposedly sent on a suicide mission. He is not afraid in the least because he considers himself untouchable and thinks he can defy Jon's authority. Here is when Slynt becomes afraid:

Janos Slynt’s face went as white as milk. The spoon slipped from his fingers.

 

Its similar to how he behaved when Tyrion threatened him, his first reaction is anger then fear.

Did he really think himself untouchable? I dont think he was that stupid.

The Hand is the Hand, Cersei yells at KG when they dont listen to Tyrion saying something like the hand speaks with the voice of the king

37 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

What crisis? Wildlings attacking the Wall en masse, the dead walking, the Watch decimated, most of its officers dead, that's not crisis for you?

Plus, you keep ignoring that Sandor lost his nerve, due to his phobia of fire, and under normal circumstances, would have carried out the order. No such mitigating circumstances for Slynt.

Not really sure. Alliser hates Jon's gut and has been depicted as an antagonist from the get go, but I do believe there is some grain of honor and duty left in him. It would be a nice twist if he, say, saw something in the woods that would make him see the light/wight? and he, albeit grudgingly, would have to admit that Jon was in the right.

A while back, I called him a ruthless bully. I guess these personality traits might account for that, as well.

Its not good. Not much worse then the 7 kingdoms or slavers bay, a little more worse lol.

The sellsword in the back was also scared, and sure there is, Janos doesnt trust Jon

Alliser belives in wights, he brought a arm to KL. Hes just a dick.

18 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Jon doesn't need "emergency powers", or "marshal law", concepts completely alien to Westeros, and even more so to the medieval penal battalion. There's no comparison between Jon and Joffrey here... Jon is executing a mutinous insubordinate, who is refusing an order given by his commanding officer. Joffrey was having Sansa stripped and beaten infront of the court. 

Or, more likely, he doubles down on his hatred for Jon, and, once released, ups his efforts to undermine him. 

Im not comparing Jon to Joffrey but thinking your LC so you cant do wrong or listen to criticism is Joffrey thinking, fortunately its not Jons

[Darth Sidious]

Changing the topic title doesn't change the fact that the execution of Janos Slynt was not justice.  Trees have eyes quoted and responded to me in Damsel in Distress' topic so I will quote back and respond.

 

Quote

 

"Sigh.  If Janos had gone to Greyguard as ordered "fairness and justice for Janos" would have taken place.  But he broke his vows and paid the price. 

Jon is Lord Commander of the NW giving a subordinate a perfectly reasonable order: how much "disagreement" should be tolerated in the (totally imaginary) newly democratized NW where everyone does only what they feel like doing and says whatever they like?

You should make a bumper sticker out of "fairness and justice for Janos" if it bothers you so much."

 

Janos Slynt didn't break his vows.  Being disrespectful is not breaking vows and not an offense that should have been punished by death.  That was personal and Jon was driven by his desire to get revenge for Ned.  Jon knew it was wrong and talked himself into killing Janos Slynt anyway.

 

[Unacosamedarisa]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Im not comparing Jon to Joffrey

Yes you are. You're asking "is Jon Joffrey?"... that's a comparison. You are comparing Jon's execution of Slynt to Joffrey's treatement of Sansa, when Tyrion educated his nephew on what happened to Aerys. 

[teej6]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, I discovered that whenever a character dies the storys enhanced. Cause and effect, people dont die for no reason. Ned creates war, Joffrey creates trouble at KL, even cousin Frey gave Jaime a sword to attack Brienne with. Janos' death did little, which is shy i think it did a lot. Jons laws seemed crazy, like feeding wildlings or attacking Bolton. His tyranny can be traced back to executing Janos. 

How other people’s deaths affected certain characters’ narrative in the story does not automatically imply that Slynt’s death had a negative impact on Jon’s. It does not imply that Slynt was seen as a martyr or that his death influenced Marsh’s decision to kill Jon.

As for Jon being tyrannical, I don’t see any evidence to back that claim. The NW is not really a democratic institution, although they elect their LC. The LC’s word and ruling is final. Jon does consult his officers and consider their views. The fact that he does not agree with them does not make him a tyrant. Marsh is a bigot and couldn’t see beyond his own petty prejudices. Could Jon have tried harder to convince Marsh? Perhaps. But considering that Jon was preparing for the impending doom of Westeros and that nothing he said or did could/would convince the likes of Marsh, I doubt there was much else Jon could do.

[Unacosamedarisa]

1 minute ago, Buell 2K said:

Being disrespectful is not breaking vows and not an offense that should have been punished by death. 

What about refusing to follow an order given by his superior? You're rather conveniently forgetting that don't you think? 

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What is he Joffrey? Jon never declared emergency powers or marshal law and even if he did thats hardly an excuse. Tyrion tells Joff what happens to kings like Aerys who do what they like, as Jon tells Stannis kill me and youll just have the 999th commander. He was chosen by his brothers he can be removed by his brothers, theres precedent i.e Nights King.

Yea, you can throw him in prison untill he sings like Karstark and give him some other task

Jon does not have to "declare" anything. When the commander commands, you listen. When the shield that guards the realms of men says they need help, you listen.

Jon is remembering the true purpose of the watch, and that is KEY to the entire arc of his story, and Wetseros and humans as a whole.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Janos doesnt trust Jon. Theres no reason for him to doubt Neds guilt, and bastards are stereotyped as untrustworthy. The fact that he was under investigation for being a turncloak (and a warg) capitalizes that. Jon did save everyone and win the battle, but Janos is an idiot (and wasnt there)

You are forgetting the hypocrisy that Janos is showing here against his judgment of Jon.

First, Janos has never met Jon and literally starts his first interaction with Jon accusing him of something he himself did not witness. So again, Janos is not leaving any past judgements behind as he is prejudice against Jon from the get go for just being a Stark.

And then, to really rub it in, Janos takes the word of one of the unwashed-savage-whore-wildlings over the word of a brother of the Night's Watch, even though there are other brothers in the room at the time who where there at the battle that are defending Jon. Janos belives Rattleshirt over any other brother, and Thorne just laughs with it because he also has a chip on his shoulder against Starks.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Right? Wheres Ser Alliser? Im sure hes scheming.

You never know, but I doubt it because if you read then you will see that the schemeing and plotting comes from Janos- in the hot tub with the letter from Tywin discussion, and then several times after, and then the lies that Janos spread that remain even after his death.

Thorne did promise to be back... as what and under what mental state, I don't know for sure, but my bet is that of all the schemers, Thorne is the one to "see the light" and be one with the blue winter rose.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Honorable? Hes given a hard job that will take a long time to do, far from CB and all the action. Its also where Jon climbed so wildlings. Or whatever may try again soon, especially if theyre Jons friends like he thinks.

Are you seriously defending Slynt by supporting his boo-hoo crying that work will be too cold and too difficult? That is what it reads you are doing.

And the gate at Castle Black is open to free folk now, why would they risk lives to climb the wall for any reason when they are now (basically) welcomed.

There is a HUGE difference between the free folk and the wildlings. The term wildlings is a derogatory term much like the various ones in the real world. Free folk is the correct term. The actual wildlings are people like the Weeper and Rattleshirt and those few shitheads. Jon knows the difference because of his experiences with them. He saw them for what they are and not the exaggerations told through the southron realms. That is key to this story, and key to the heart of our hippie author.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol for the Slynt. I hope that becomes a thing.

That is pretty funny

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, I discovered that whenever a character dies the storys enhanced. Cause and effect, people dont die for no reason. Ned creates war, Joffrey creates trouble at KL, even cousin Frey gave Jaime a sword to attack Brienne with. Janos' death did little, which is shy i think it did a lot. Jons laws seemed crazy, like feeding wildlings or attacking Bolton. His tyranny can be traced back to executing Janos. 

Really? Jon's "tyranny"? The same guy who learns the truth about the free folk through actual experience, wants to save thousands from becoming wightified and part of the true foe, plans to rebuild the watch and grow food, saves a highborn girl from the deadly winter weather during an upcoming war for life??? Real tyrant.

[Darth Sidious]

Just now, Unacosamedarisa said:

What about refusing to follow an order given by his superior? You're rather conveniently forgetting that don't you think? 

Janos Slynt resisted at first and then agreed.  He agreed to do what he was told.  Then Jon killed him anyway.  

[The Fattest Leech]

35 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I may be mistaken, but I thought Othell Yarwyck was not involved in the assassination (or at least we don't know).  We know of only 2 people (although 4 knives are mentioned) and that's Marsh and Wick Whittlestick (both stewards).  Jon specifically notices Marsh, Wick, Alf of Runnymud, and Left-Hand Lew as a group together.  He notices Yarwyck with his builders, and then notices all the men (including Yarwyck) leaving during his speech.  It is unclear after that who is present for Jon's assassination attempt out of those men, but it may stand to reason that the 4 knives are the 4 stewards Jon notices.  

 

25 minutes ago, teej6 said:

You are right, I was mistaken. Only Marsh and Wick are mentioned as the people who stab Jon. So, then we have only Marsh as one of Slynt’s backers who we have as a confirmed mutineer. 

Of the four plotters we have seen through ASOS and parts of ADWD, Slynt, Thorne, Yarwyck, and Marsh, only Marsh is left. Marsh is good at counting spoons, but he is also a bumbling follower. Marsh is either hastily acting on a plan that schemed earlier, taking advantage of the chaos as Ser Patrek tries to steal Val and sets off Wun Wun... or, Marsh and mutiny friends were guided by something else as Sam takes note of in one of his chapters... but that is another thread