The execution of Janos Slynt was spot on

[Three-Fingered Pete]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And if Jon gives Slynt yet another chance they will all know he's all bark and no bite. 

Why do you say it worked against him? I don't recall anything in the text that supports this claim. In fact, it's quite the opposite if you look at the scene @Clegane'sPup posted a while back. Where Jon talks to the Norrey and Flint atop the Wall. 

 

Read the part again where Jon is reading the room. Even he is summing up the factions, going over in his mind who voted for who. As I stated earlier, the Watch accepted the sentence. It was never really clear how many supported it (except the guy who got the new boots!)

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Trefayne said:

Read the part again where Jon is reading the room. Even he is summing up the factions, going over in his mind who voted for who. As I stated earlier, the Watch accepted the sentence. It was never really clear how many supported it (except the guy who got the new boots!)

Are you talking about the choosing or the execution?

Yup, Owen the Oaf was very happy!

 

[TheMiddleHero]

2 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

Read the part again where Jon is reading the room. Even he is summing up the factions, going over in his mind who voted for who. As I stated earlier, the Watch accepted the sentence. It was never really clear how many supported it (except the guy who got the new boots!)

But, why leave someone who you know is plotting against you in this situation live? Do you see Janos being redeemed? I honestly couldn't picture it. If Jon could have known about Marsh and the other conspirators early, that could have been nipped in the bud quite nicely too. Marsh was just smart enough to shut his mouth about it, Janos not so smart about it.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Are you talking about the choosing or the execution?

Yup, Owen the Oaf was very happy!

 

Jon2, near the end when he confronts Slynt the next morning. The way it is written it seems that Jon can count on more of Stannis' men than his own.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 minute ago, TheMiddleHero said:

But, why leave someone who you know is plotting against you in this situation live? Do you see Janos being redeemed? I honestly couldn't picture it. If Jon could have known about Marsh and the other conspirators early, that could have been nipped in the bud quite nicely too. Marsh was just smart enough to shut his mouth about it, Janos not so smart about it.

On a character level I agree with you. On an author level I cannot. Slynt could have been a much better foil for longer given the fact that the book was long and Jon had little else to do. It would have spiced up the story some, that's all. Maybe the solution was to delay Slynt's treason until Jon5 or so

[Rufus Snow]

4 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

On a character level I agree with you. On an author level I cannot. Slynt could have been a much better foil for longer given the fact that the book was long and Jon had little else to do. It would have spiced up the story some, that's all. Maybe the solution was to delay Slynt's treason until Jon5 or so

GRRM has been having enough trouble getting stuff finished, without dragging out another sub-plot

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 minute ago, Rufus Snow said:

GRRM has been having enough trouble getting stuff finished, without dragging out another sub-plot

What sub-plot? You could restructure Jon's arc through ADwD and still finish it before the end of the book while accomplishing everything else he did, i.e nothing.

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

On a character level I agree with you. On an author level I cannot. Slynt could have been a much better foil for longer given the fact that the book was long and Jon had little else to do. It would have spiced up the story some, that's all. Maybe the solution was to delay Slynt's treason until Jon5 or so

 

3 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

GRRM has been having enough trouble getting stuff finished, without dragging out another sub-plot

I thought the timing of it was spot on, setting up everything that came after. Then again, I love Jon's ADwD chapters, every last one, every last word in each one.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And if Jon gives Slynt yet another chance they will all know he's all bark and no bite. 

Why do you say it worked against him? I don't recall anything in the text that supports this claim. In fact, it's quite the opposite if you look at the scene @Clegane'sPup posted a while back. Where Jon talks to the Norrey and Flint atop the Wall. 

 

Har. It was a group effort. I rarely have new and innovative . I'll try to bring the post forward.

 

I had this long winded post ready to go but I had to sack it because @Lord Varysmade me laugh.

If you don't mind I would like to play off your post.

The man/boy passed the sentence and he swung the sword.

In a different thread @The Fattest Leech brought in an interesting quote as it applied to that thread.  Thanks for that Leech.  To my way of thinking the quote sheds some light on why LC SNow passed the sentence and swung the sword.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI      The northmen glanced at one another. "Hostages," mused The Norrey. "Tormund has agreed to this?"       It was that, or watch his people die. "My blood price, he called it," said Jon Snow, "but he will pay."       "Aye, and why not?" Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. "Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it."      "None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter," said The Norrey. "Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?"      Ask Janos Slynt. "Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark."/

I am fairly sure the line "I am still a son of Eddard Stark" will be twisted in some manner. What I am suggesting is that story wise Slynt had to die. LC Snow, following Eddard's example, passed the sentence and LC Snow swung the sword.

Thanks.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Trefayne said:

What sub-plot? You could restructure Jon's arc through ADwD and still finish it before the end of the book while accomplishing everything else he did, i.e nothing.

I don’t have a lot of time for a full reply, but it has to be done early as a development sub-plot because we later see how it is addressed again, which is all set up (foreshadowing) for a larger, harder decision Jon will most likely have to make later. 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

 The northmen glanced at one another."Hostages," mused The Norrey. "Tormund has agreed to this?"

It was that, or watch his people die. "My blood price, he called it," said Jon Snow, "but he will pay."

"Aye, and why not?" Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. "Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it."

"None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter," said The Norrey. "Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?"

Ask Janos Slynt. "Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey,but I am still a son of Eddard Stark."

[The Fattest Leech]

‘d by @Clegane'sPup

[Clegane'sPup]

48 minutes ago, TheMiddleHero said:

He wasn't assassinated over Janos though

I agree.

Jon Snow did not seek to become LC.  Although Samwell did some politicking/finagling the NW chose Jon Snow.  Or rather I should say, martin decided that 16/17 year old Jon Snow would become LC of the NW.

Snow did have other options BUT as people have been trying to say --- the situation called for a strong show of authority for the newly chosen (16/17 year old) LC.  The man/boy passed the sentence and he swung the sword.

A handful of men attempted to kill LC Snow "for the Watch" not Slynt. The Wall situation is complicated with many variables ----- Stannis, Mance, free folk, WW and wights ---- Marsh's group  picked the wrong time to have a mutiny ---- now the NW supposedly again has no LC.   I think, but am not sure, that the commanders of ST and EW along with their men have returned to their regular posts.

None of this has been directed at you, your words are merely a vehicle for me chatter.

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

You guys can't argue both that it is a character decision and therefore open to moral judgment and also claim it is convenient plot device to set up Jon's badassness so his men will follow him into the breach of madness (in their eyes) by letting the Wildlings through. I call shenanigans!!

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

Character development yes, but not in the right direction.  Jon goes from a hot headed boy with a chip on his shoulders to a vindictive little tyrant who still has a dangerous temper. 

I find it very hard to take this statement seriously. "Vindictive little tyrant", really? I would like to see what exactly makes Jon a vindictive little tyrant, care to provide some evidence? 

1 hour ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

The execution of Janos Slynt is the start of Jon's spiral into irrationality. 

Again, as above, care to show us Jon's irrationally? 

1 hour ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

His Brothers of the Watch might have forgiven his treasonous attempts to get his sister if he had shown reasonable restraint and shown mercy to Slynt. 

*Yawn*. I do understand that repeating ad nauseam that "Jon committed treason trying to take fArya from Ramsay" is a favourite argument for many posters. I also know that no matter how many times it is shown to these posters that this is an erroneous claim, they will keep banging on and on about it. So, just to avoid breaking tradition, here is goes. Again.

ADwD, Jon XIII 

“The Night’s Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms,” Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. “It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows.
“The Night’s Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless …” Jon paused. “… is there any man here who will come stand with me?”
The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.
Yarwyck and Marsh were slipping out, he saw, and all their men behind them. It made no matter. He did not need them now. 

“He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone. Then Tormund was pounding him on the back, all gap-toothed grin from ear to ear. “Well spoken, crow. Now bring out the mead! Make them yours and get them drunk, that’s how it’s done. We’ll make a wildling o’ you yet, boy. Har!”
“I will send for ale,” Jon said, distracted. Melisandre was gone, he realized, and so were the queen’s knights. I should have gone to Selyse first. She has the right to know her lord is dead. “You must excuse me. I’ll leave you to get them drunk.”
“Har! A task I’m well suited for, crow. On your way!”
Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. “That come from Hardin’s Tower, m’lord,” Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off.
Val, was Jon’s first thought.”

Ramsay threatens the NW and its LC, and Jon is going to make him answer for those threats. He not only says as much, but more importantly, the author decided to show us his thoughts on the matter as well. 

 

1 hour ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

Nothing good came out of that execution.  So even if Jon's defenders claim it was politically smart, it was most certainly not because Slynt's group got even as soon as Jon himself broke the Night's Watch rules.  Show no mercy and you shall get no mercy.  Sure the execution was a fist-pumping triumph for Jon and his fans but it doesn't make it the smart nor the right judgement.  Jon punked Janos and Bowen Marsh punctured Jon.  I can't say that I blame Bowen Marsh given that Jon has gone into a downward spiral.  

Read above. Also, don't miss Winds to see what will happen to Bowen "Mash Pomegranate" Marsh. Although maybe you might want to miss it... I have a feeling you're really not going to like it much. 

1 hour ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

Q. Halfhand has said Mance Rayder was the best of the crows and the worst of the crows.  The man was a pretty good ranger but he could never stay within the boundaries of the rules.  He quarreled over a red piece of silken cloth and deserted his vows over a matter of dress code. 

You do get that the piece of red silk is metaphorical, right? Just checking...

1 hour ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

I see a little bit of Mance Rayder in Jon Snow.  Both men, in my opinion, got seduced by the wildling way where the visceral human emotions of the primal nature and personal freedom are practiced over the rules of the law.  Jon had a little bit of that stubborn, willful streak from the very beginning when he would not let his vows keep him from leaving so he can help Robb Stark fight the Lannisters.  It should only be a matter of time before Jon went wild and he did.  

At last something we can agree on. Of course, I think that's a good thing and have a feeling you will not agree w/ me.

 

[Makk]

49 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

On a character level I agree with you. On an author level I cannot. Slynt could have been a much better foil for longer given the fact that the book was long and Jon had little else to do. It would have spiced up the story some, that's all. Maybe the solution was to delay Slynt's treason until Jon5 or so

I'm afraid I don't agree with you at all. The idea was to challenge Jon's authority as soon as he becomes lord commander. And introduce the new Lord Snow, as he becomes quite a different character, in brutal fashion. This cannot be delayed at all. The plot hangs open of course because there were other conspirators. 

I don't think Slynt is a particularly interesting foil either because he is so obviously corrupt and stupid. Bowen Marsh was the better choice to hang around. 

[Clegane'sPup]

13 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

You guys can't argue both that it is a character decision and therefore open a moral judgment and also claim it is convenient plot device to set up Jon's badassness so his men will follow him into the breach of madness (in their eyes) by letting the Wildlings through. I call shenanigans!!

Everything is open to reader interpretation.

The question is am I projecting my moral code on martin's characters?

These books are violent.

It's easy to pick a scenario and chit chat about motivation or whether or not a character was right or wrong in his/her action. It passes the time. Do you remember the gazillion posts about whether LC is dead or not? When was the last time one of those appeared?

 

[Makk]

As an aside, and this is moving slightly off topic, to me Jon's big mistake here was not cutting off Slynt's head (in fact I can't even understand why this is such a contested discussion), but rather offering Slynt a command in the first place. What if he was slightly smarter and took it? Did Jon guess he would refuse? 

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, Makk said:

As an aside, and this is moving slightly off topic, to me Jon's big mistake here was not cutting off Slynt's head (in fact I can't even understand why this is such a contested discussion), but rather offering Slynt a command in the first place. What if he was slightly smarter and took it? Did Jon guess he would refuse? 

Jon didn't have many choices as he wanted to garrison every castle in the medium term. Every person with command experience (or not like Edd) would get a command

[Three-Fingered Pete]

26 minutes ago, Makk said:

I'm afraid I don't agree with you at all. The idea was to challenge Jon's authority as soon as he becomes lord commander. And introduce the new Lord Snow, as he becomes quite a different character, in brutal fashion. This cannot be delayed at all. The plot hangs open of course because there were other conspirators. 

I don't think Slynt is a particularly interesting foil either because he is so obviously corrupt and stupid. Bowen Marsh was the better choice to hang around. 

And my answer to that was way back, but I will reiterate. Yes, Jon made the decision and yes it immediately solidified his authority and willingness to apply it, but the timing was bad for his character. In the end it worked against him or someone might have warned him of the impending mutiny. If GRRM did just use Slynt as a plot device and not a character building moment, then the reactions of the Watch have to fall into the plot device's purview. Jon got blindsided when it was obvious he was on shaky ground. No one lifted a finger. There would have been some rumors or nasty grumbling going around, but nobody sympathetic heard and reported anything?

EDIT: Oh, I forgot, Melisandre warned him and he blew it off.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Makk said:

As an aside, and this is moving slightly off topic, to me Jon's big mistake here was not cutting off Slynt's head (in fact I can't even understand why this is such a contested discussion),

Indeed.

8 minutes ago, Makk said:

but rather offering Slynt a command in the first place. What if he was slightly smarter and took it? Did Jon guess he would refuse? 

I agree this could be an issue. But Jon thinks about it and the options he has. In the end he decides on giving a command to use his "experience" but the men under his command won't be any of his cronies, and the workload is gonna be so brutal Jon hopes it will leave him too tired to plot. 

“Lord Janos.” Jon sheathed his sword. “I am giving you command of Greyguard.”
That took Slynt aback. “Greyguard … Greyguard was where you climbed the Wall with your wildling friends …”
“It was. The fort is in a sorry state, admittedly. You will restore it as best you can. Start by clearing back the forest. Steal stones from the structures that have collapsed to repair those still standing.” The work will be hard and brutal, he might have added. You’ll sleep on stone, too exhausted to complain or plot, and soon you’ll forget what it was like to be warm, but you might remember what it was to be a man. “You will have thirty men. Ten from here, ten from the Shadow Tower, and ten lent to us by King Stannis.”