GRRM quote on jaimes motivation on pushing bran from the tower

[goldenlion]

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423?page=3

 GRRM has also clarified, in as many words, that Jaime’s motivation in tossing Bran from that tower was deadly serious:

At the same time, what Jaime did is interesting. I don’t have any kids myself, but I’ve talked with other people who have. Remember, Jaime isn’t just trying to kill Bran because he’s an annoying little kid. Bran has seen something that is basically a death sentence for Jaime, for Cersei, and their children – their three actual children. So I’ve asked people who do have children, “Well, what would you do in Jaime’s situation?” They say, “Well, I’m not a bad guy – I wouldn’t kill.” Are you sure? Never? If Bran tells King Robert he’s going to kill you and your sister-lover, and your three children. . . .
Then many of them hesitate. Probably more people than not would say, “Yeah, I would kill someone else’s child to save my own child, even if that other child was innocent.” These are the difficult decisions people make, and they’re worth examining.

jaime always hated pushing bran off the tower when he did it ( though cersei likes to act like she wasnt there or that jaime didnt do it for her when yes he did at first jaime pulled up bran saving him from falling but cersei said what are you doing showing that she doesnt want bran alive and looked at him like she looked at pycelle nonverball sending the message and jaime said the things I do fdor love with LOATHING

 

cersei gaslighted jaime

Quote

"If I'd let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see. I'm not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I've done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . . "

@867-5309

 

[Julia H.]

My problem with this is that Jaime is willing to kill an innocent child to protect his children but, for the same goal, he is not willing to refrain from having sex with Cersei while they are in an unfamiliar territory, where the risk they are taking is (even) higher than at home. How selfish is that?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

While I agree with @Julia H. about Jaime being selfish having to have Cersei in Winterfell, once Bran saw them he had little choice. Not only would Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion and their children be at risk of being killed, but war could possible break out with Robert and Tywin. Basically all of House Lannister was at risk, but only because Jaime couldn't wait a few weeks. He also had sex with Cersei while Robert was passed out on the floor, so he was constantly putting his Cersei and their children at risk every time he got horny and couldn't wait till they had absolute privacy in a place they were familiar with.  He continues with this behavior when he takes Cersei in the sept in front of Joff's corpse. The man has no self control when it comes to his sexual desire for his twin.

[chrisdaw]

That was all plain from the text.

[The Wolves]

My problem for years concerning GRRM’s quote about Jaime is that this is never shown in the books as the reason he pushed Bran. 

Jaime is shown not to care at all about his children until AFFC and even then it’s a very small measure of concern. Nor does Jaime care seem to concerned over him and Cersei getting caught, they even have sex right next to Robert’ drunken passed out self. He even made a joke about going to war if Robert ever found out. Jaime would LOVE for his and Cersei’s secret to get out. So no I don’t believe that Jaime pushed Bran to save his sister and children when everything since our first introduction of him says opposite of what GRRM is saying. 

[Leonardo]

To the above posters: people are creatures of passion. Many things you do in the moment you would never considered in hind or fore sight, even with death in the offing.

 

Cersei and Jaime had skirted these dangers for so long, they began to forget the risks with what they were doing in the first place.

 

Jaime isn't stupid, hed know getting caught is death.

[LynnS]

Curiously, Ned asks himself the same question:
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"My son Bran …"

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

 

 

[The hairy bear]

14 hours ago, Julia H. said:

My problem with this is that Jaime is willing to kill an innocent child to protect his children but, for the same goal, he is not willing to refrain from having sex with Cersei while they are in an unfamiliar territory, where the risk they are taking is (even) higher than at home. How selfish is that?

While I completely agree with your sentiment, it has to be pointed out that Jaime refrained from having sex with Cersei during all the months that they had been on the road, and that he intended to abstain from it during the months that the trip back home would last.

And when they decided to have this one-time sex in Winterfell, it can't be said that they were careless. They chose the day where most people had went out to hunt, and went to an isolated abandoned tower. Surely they chose that place because they could control who came in from the bottom of the tower, and they knew they had plenty of time to dress up and act as if they were just contemplating the views.

No one could have predicted that some boy would climb up the tower and appear at their window.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

Jaime doesn't have a strong emotional connection to his children, but he loves his sister. And he likes to live himself. He was protecting himself just as much as Cersei and the children when he tried to kill Bran.

And I daresay the risk of being caught is much higher in the crowded Red Keep than at Winterfell.

If Cersei and Jaime had just been allowed to marry each other (or live together as siblings at CR and everybody is looking the other way when they are fucking) then everything would have been fine, more or less. Neither Jaime nor Cersei would go to so great lengths to protect their families, themselves, and their dirty little secrets.

That is why Jaime is so obsessed with coming clean and finally telling the truth about this. All he ever wanted was to be with Cersei.

[JaneSnow]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime doesn't have a strong emotional connection to his children, but he loves his sister. And he likes to live himself. He was protecting himself just as much as Cersei and the children when he tried to kill Bran.

And I daresay the risk of being caught is much higher in the crowded Red Keep than at Winterfell.

If Cersei and Jaime had just been allowed to marry each other (or live together as siblings at CR and everybody is looking the other way when they are fucking) then everything would have been fine, more or less. Neither Jaime nor Cersei would go to so great lengths to protect their families, themselves, and their dirty little secrets.

That is why Jaime is so obsessed with coming clean and finally telling the truth about this. All he ever wanted was to be with Cersei.

Not anymore, not since Feast when he found out about Osmund Kettleblack, Lancel, and Moonboy for all we know

[Corvo the Crow]

Don't want to make it a what if thread but would Eddard have protected Jaime and Cersei and the golden bastards if Jaime went to him and say, "hey here's the deal, I've been giving the horns to your buddy Robert and all his children are actually mine. Your son spotted us and instead of killing him and making it look an accidental fall, I am coming to you. protect  my family from certain death" would Eddard protect him? He knows what Robert is capable and he dies himself trying to protect the golden bastards first from Robert and then from Renly, despitr knowing about Bran and believing thr second attempt was also done by Lannisters.

[Geddus]

Since Ned warned Cersei so that she could escape with her children, I think he would have made the same offer to Jaime. Tho I'm not sure that would have included Jaime himself, I think Ned would have insisted he took the black.

As for the thread, murdering a witness to cover a crime is not acceptable. Jaime's attempt to kill Bran is inexcusable, full stop. If he was so concerned about the safety of Cersei and the children he could have avoided having sex with the queen. And it's not like the incident with Bran was a wake-up call, he fucked Cersei in Darry, too, on the way back from Winterfell so the children's lives are just an excuse, a pathetic one at that.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, JaneSnow said:

Not anymore, not since Feast when he found out about Osmund Kettleblack, Lancel, and Moonboy for all we know

Yeah, Tyrion really hurt his narcissism there. It is not Brienne, etc. what causes Jaime to distance himself from Cersei, it is the fear that she doesn't love him as much as he loves her.

But Jaime/Cersei wouldn't have been even remotely as poisonous or as bad to the people around them if they had just been able to have a more or less happy romantic relationship without being constantly forced to keep that a secret.

8 minutes ago, Geddus said:

As for the thread, murdering a witness to cover a crime is not acceptable. Jaime's attempt to kill Bran is inexcusable, full stop. If he was so concerned about the safety of Cersei and the children he could have avoided having sex with the queen. And it's not like the incident with Bran was a wake-up call, he fucked Cersei in Darry, too, on the way back from Winterfell so the children's lives are just an excuse, a pathetic one at that.

It is certainly not excusable (a lot of stuff Jaime does is not excusable) but it is understandable. One can relate to his motivation to do this, and one can even imagine that oneself would do something like that if one were living in Westeros in Jaime's situation.

That said, Jaime's shows his murderous nature already by the fact that he saved the boy before he decided to try to kill. A less corrupt individual wouldn't have saved Bran only throw him out of the window. He or she would have just watched how Bran had fallen. Would have still been an ugly thing but not as bad as direct murder.

[Free Northman Reborn]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, Tyrion really hurt his narcissism there. It is not Brienne, etc. what causes Jaime to distance himself from Cersei, it is the fear that she doesn't love him as much as he loves her.

But Jaime/Cersei wouldn't have been even remotely as poisonous or as bad to the people around them if they had just been able to have a more or less happy romantic relationship without being constantly forced to keep that a secret.

Yeah I call bullshit on this. Cersei was as poisonous a liitle shit when she was  young girl getting her fortune told as she is today. And back then she didn’t even want to marry Jaime. She dreamt about Rhaegar Targaryen instead.

Being forbidden from marrying Jaime has nothing to do with her being a vile, scheming b*tch, as someone accurately describes her in the books.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah I call bullshit on this. Cersei was as poisonous a liitle shit when she was  young girl getting her fortune told as she is today. And back then she didn’t even want to marry Jaime. She dreamt about Rhaegar Targaryen instead.

LOL, she was fucking Jaime since they were both 5-6 years old, and Aerys II rejected her as bride for Rhaegar when she was ten years old. Whatever she felt for Rhaegar was as much 'love' as the feelings you had at the same age for whatever child you had a crush on at that age. Not to mention that she never knew Rhaegar, a man seven years her senior, because she didn't live at court. That wasn't even a childhood crush, it was a fancy that developed out of Tywin's and Genna's promises that she would marry the king's son.

But I admit that Cersei was always not as narcissistic as to limit herself to only her mirror image. She was willing to do her duty and marry a man of her father's choosing. Jaime would never do that. He does only what he wants.

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

Being forbidden from marrying Jaime has nothing to do with her being a vile, scheming b*tch, as someone accurately describes her in the books.

Cersei was never a particularly nice person - and neither Jaime. But it is still pretty obvious that neither she nor Jaime would have ruined the Realm or committed as awful crimes as they did if Cersei hadn't been stuck in her marriage with King Robert and they hadn't been forced to keep their incest affair a secret in that context. If Cersei had taken some minor Lord of the West as alibi husband and kept Jaime, heir to Casterly Rock, as a lover, things would have gone much easier, considering that they weren't cuckolding the king and thus committing high treason.

And whether Cersei actually pushed Melara into the well or whether she just stood there and allowed her to die is not clear yet. It could be both. If I let you die I'm essentially as much your death if you push you and then let you die, no?

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, she was fucking Jaime since they were both 5-6 years old, and Aerys II rejected her as bride for Rhaegar when she was ten years old. Whatever she felt for Rhaegar was as much 'love' as the feelings you had at the same age for whatever child you had a crush on at that age. Not to mention that she never knew Rhaegar, a man seven years her senior, because she didn't live at court. That wasn't even a childhood crush, it was a fancy that developed out of Tywin's and Genna's promises that she would marry the king's son.

But I admit that Cersei was always not as narcissistic as to limit herself to only her mirror image. She was willing to do her duty and marry a man of her father's choosing. Jaime would never do that. He does only what he wants.

Cersei was never a particularly nice person - and neither Jaime. But it is still pretty obvious that neither she nor Jaime would have ruined the Realm or committed as awful crimes as they did if Cersei hadn't been stuck in her marriage with King Robert and they hadn't been forced to keep their incest affair a secret in that context. If Cersei had taken some minor Lord of the West as alibi husband and kept Jaime, heir to Casterly Rock, as a lover, things would have gone much easier, considering that they weren't cuckolding the king and thus committing high treason.

And whether Cersei actually pushed Melara into the well or whether she just stood there and allowed her to die is not clear yet. It could be both. If I let you die I'm essentially as much your death if you push you and then let you die, no?

Haha. What are you on about?

At age ten or so she murdered her friend just because she overheard a fortune teller make a bad prophecy about her future.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Haha. What are you on about?

At age ten or so she murdered her friend just because she overheard a fortune teller make a bad prophecy about her future.

Murdered her or allowed her to die, that isn't the same. And we don't know the truth. And the prophecies were a pretty big thing. One can understand that she didn't want anyone to know that stuff.

But my point is that most of Cersei/Jaime's issues on a grand scale are connected to them not being able to openly live their love. That's why Jaime joins the KG in the first place, that's why they try to kill Bran, that's why Robert's children are not Robert's, etc.

If the circumstances had favored them more they wouldn't have been as poisonous as they were, just as they would have been less significant if they had been stuck in the West rather than sitting close to the Iron Throne.

And the funny thing is that pretty much all that happens is connected to the problem of their children. That's pretty much behind everything they do in one way or another. Even Cersei's bumbling right now is, ultimately, motivated by the desire to protect Tommen.

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Murdered her or allowed her to die, that isn't the same. And we don't know the truth. And the prophecies were a pretty big thing. One can understand that she didn't want anyone to know that stuff.

But my point is that most of Cersei/Jaime's issues on a grand scale are connected to them not being able to openly live their love. That's why Jaime joins the KG in the first place, that's why they try to kill Bran, that's why Robert's children are not Robert's, etc.

If the circumstances had favored them more they wouldn't have been as poisonous as they were, just as they would have been less significant if they had been stuck in the West rather than sitting close to the Iron Throne.

And the funny thing is that pretty much all that happens is connected to the problem of their children. That's pretty much behind everything they do in one way or another. Even Cersei's bumbling right now is, ultimately, motivated by the desire to protect Tommen.

No, their evil is not due to your personal mantra of “If only incest was accepted by the unenlightened traditionalists all would be better”.

And yes, Cersei murdered her friend. The fortune teller said her death was with her in that very room. Meaning Cersei.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

No, their evil is not due to your personal mantra of “If only incest was accepted by the unenlightened traditionalists all would be better”.

They don't care about incest, they care about their love for each other. A love that actually exists. Who are you to tell a loving couple to go fuck themselves and no longer fuck each other?

It is clear that they firmly closed the door by making their children Robert's, which created another set of problems, but if they had been able to live their own lives at their own terms they wouldn't have ruined the Realm. That's just a fact.

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And yes, Cersei murdered her friend. The fortune teller said her death was with her in that very room. Meaning Cersei.

I already addressed that above.

[Geddus]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is certainly not excusable (a lot of stuff Jaime does is not excusable) but it is understandable.

The situation was of his own making, he knew the consequences and didn't care (which is obvious since he kept fucking Cersei in "non secure" locations even after what happened with Bran) so no, I don't think his behavior is understandable. It would be if he had unwittingly found himself in a position where he had to choose between Cersei's life and someone else's, but that's not the case.

Obviously Cersei shares responsibility, but she's not the one who threw an 8 year old boy from a tower.