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Does a peasant have to be scum to move up in Westeoes?


Varysblackfyre321

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It seems most of the peasants we see in the series who move up in society do so because they are scumor simply are scum; Davos(smuggler-I don't mean to say he's a bad guy, just that in his society that's what he was), Bronn(sell-sword, murderer), Slynt(corrupt, murderer), Ramsey(Ramsey-yes I'm counting him as a peasant, given he was basiclly raised as such), Gregor and Sandor's father(kept young Sandor around Gregor); the only exception who I can think of is Duncan the tall. Are there any other peasants we know about that move up, without being scum? 

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It happens.

My man Lothor Brune is now a knight, and promised lands and a keep when the war concludes.  Littlefinger's grandfather was a Braavosi sellsword who was granted a minor lordship for leal service.  Ser Philip Foote is the new lord of Nightsong after the Battle of the Blackwater, and does not appear to be scum, just a loyal and fierce knight. 

Even Ser Rodrick damn near ended up Lord of Hornwood when Donella wanted to throw him some booty, but he was too shy to do it.

Many men move up in Westeros through good deeds, good service, or quality character.  They aren't all on the teams we, as readers, want to see victorious. 

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Foote was from a minor house-not really a peasant. He's low nobility, but still nobility.

I don't know if it's fair to count little finger's grandfather; given we just know so little about his character; he could have been as morally duplicitous as Bronn, given he's a sell-sword, I think it's unlikely he expounded much moral virtue.

Rodrick is from House Cassel, a minor northern house. 

Lothot seems to be aiding in LF's treason, and murdered Donthos.

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41 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Foote was from a minor house-not really a peasant. He's low nobility, but still nobility.

I don't know if it's fair to count little finger's grandfather; given we just know so little about his character; he could have been as morally duplicitous as Bronn, given he's a sell-sword, I think it's unlikely he expounded much moral virtue.

Rodrick is from House Cassel, a minor northern house. 

Lothot seems to be aiding in LF's treason, and murdered Donthos.

House Cassel isn't a house, it's a family.  They aren't even petty lords, having no land. 

With Lothor, I suppose we'll have to see.  There is a discussion to be had about the morality of killing Dontos.  Littlefinger was right:  Sansa would never be safe as long as Dontos was alive. 

I suppose one way to look at it is as simple as Sandor's red-pilling Sansa:  Knights are for killing.  There aren't going to be many perfect, moral men who slay their way to lordship.

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Well, a degree of ruthlessness and unscrupulousness certainly helps, especially since wealth and estate can often be had only at the expense of someone else. Consider the two Snows: both Jon and Ramsay realize early on that their best chance to become legitimized sons would be their siblings' death. Jon is horrified by the realization, Ramsay just goes ahead and puts the idea into practice.

Ser Duncan is a great exception with his uncompromisingly high morals, but he was very lucky - he might have died a poor hedge knight if Egg had indeed been just an orphan boy from the streets. 

In general, the sword is more likely to help a poor person rise than study and scholarly intelligence because if you have a talent for fighting, you can be used instantly (or with very little training) by a patron, while if you are gifted enough to become a great maester, you still need someone to pay for your education for years; moreover, this sort of talent is more difficult to recognize if you are not in the right environment.   

Also, situations of political turmoil and instability, such as wars, are great opportunities for a certain kind of personality to move up the ladder, and it's not the shy type. 

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In the normal course of events peasants aren't suppose to move up period. Peasants' children grow up to be peasants, craftsmen's are supposed to be craftsmen and so on. It is certainly possible to move down though. 

Almost every case mentioned in the OP is both extraordinary and involved with the nobility somehow. That said being willing or inclined to do things other people aren't on one's own behalf or other is a time honored method of advancement. 

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Im telling you, Ramsay is no smallfolk. He was given Reek to teach or assist him or whatever Reek does. When Ramsay manages to defeat Ser Rordrik and capture Winterfell it was with Rooses personal men, no smallfolk has that power. Similarly capturing Hornwood land and skirmishing against Manderly soldiers is not within smallfolk power. Lastly Ramsay knows his history, by using the flaying knife like his ancestors or naming his bitches after his prisoners in some perverted skinchanging way, smallfolk have no heritage or knowledge of family history.

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On 7/23/2018 at 8:31 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Im telling you, Ramsay is no smallfolk. He was given Reek to teach or assist him or whatever Reek does. When Ramsay manages to defeat Ser Rordrik and capture Winterfell it was with Rooses personal men, no smallfolk has that power. Similarly capturing Hornwood land and skirmishing against Manderly soldiers is not within smallfolk power. Lastly Ramsay knows his history, by using the flaying knife like his ancestors or naming his bitches after his prisoners in some perverted skinchanging way, smallfolk have no heritage or knowledge of family history.

The smallfolk in the North know more about their lands and history and lore than anywhere else.

 

When Boltons and Starks were fighting back in the day, the Boltons had more lands, more sworn lords, and more allies. Stretching from the Wolf's Den to current Karhold. That's why it took forever for the Starks to finally "conquer" them. 

 

But I think we might get a history of why Boltons were able to muster up enough men or allies to fight off the Starks and sack them a couple of times. 

 

 

Ramsay is a threat to house Bolton in the long run because he is reckless, impatient, yada yada and not thoroughly  intelligent enough to play the game of thrones (as of right now). 

 

Ramsay is more of a Gregor to Roose, and eventually Roose will depose of him. But Ramsay knows this for sure.

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On 7/23/2018 at 2:42 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It seems most of the peasants we see in the series who move up in society do so because they are scumor simply are scum; Davos(smuggler-I don't mean to say he's a bad guy, just that in his society that's what he was), Bronn(sell-sword, murderer), Slynt(corrupt, murderer), Ramsey(Ramsey-yes I'm counting him as a peasant, given he was basiclly raised as such), Gregor and Sandor's father(kept young Sandor around Gregor); the only exception who I can think of is Duncan the tall. Are there any other peasants we know about that move up, without being scum? 

There are tons of other lords and houses that are not mentioned in the storyline. And doesn't mean they are sitting around, playing cyssese. 

 

Here's someone thats not a scum that got awarded:

Wyman participated in the Battle of the Trident during Robert's Rebellion. He granted the Wolf's Den to Ser Bartimus after the latter saved Wyman's life in the battle.[9]

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On 7/23/2018 at 6:07 PM, LindsayLohan said:

House Cassel isn't a house, it's a family.  They aren't even petty lords, having no land

We actually don't know that that they have no land. They could be a very low-level Master house with a tiny keep and tiny villages miles from anything. 

If you had the choice of being Winterfell's Captain of Guards or Master of Arms and living in an actual castle with all of the respect, luxuries etc that come with the position and location or living in some cold tiny one room keep (like the thing Bran and his group hide in in the gift or Stannis stays in the Fishing village), I'd take the former in a heartbeat.

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1 hour ago, GallowsKnight said:

We actually don't know that that they have no land. They could be a very low-level Master house with a tiny keep and tiny villages miles from anything. 

If you had the choice of being Winterfell's Captain of Guards or Master of Arms and living in an actual castle with all of the respect, luxuries etc that come with the position and location or living in some cold tiny one room keep (like the thing Bran and his group hide in in the gift or Stannis stays in the Fishing village), I'd take the former in a heartbeat.

Except the only three surviving members of the family are all in Winterfell.  Rodrik, Jory, Beth (with only Beth still alive).  Martyn was a Winterfell guard, too.  While the Starks hold them in esteem, it is essentially a family of household knights.

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Spicers. Sybelle and maybe her brother are scum but their ancestor bought his way into petty nobility with money from trade.

Davos didn't move up because he was a smuggler. He moved up because he provided humanitarian aid to Stannis and his garrison. The fact that he used the skillsets he got from years of smuggling is irrelevant since Stannis didn't give him any medals for evading taxes.

 

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12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Spicers. Sybelle and maybe her brother are scum but their ancestor bought his way into petty nobility with money from trade.

Davos didn't move up because he was a smuggler. He moved up because he provided humanitarian aid to Stannis and his garrison. The fact that he used the skillsets he got from years of smuggling is irrelevant since Stannis didn't give him any medals for evading taxes.

 

You do realize Davos sold Stannis and his garrison the onions and fish he brought to Stormsend right? Certainly at prices well over the actual value of the food. It was not an act of charity. Davos was a smuggler. Ergo he was "scum in his  society. He would not be be able to have sold Stannis and his garrison enough food to live without his skill sets from smuggling. 

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14 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

Ramsay is a threat to house Bolton in the long run because he is reckless, impatient, yada yada and not thoroughly  intelligent enough to play the game of thrones (as of right now). 

I disagree. If house Bolton falls it will be because of Stark power, not Ramsays stupidity. Ramsay is intelligent, he played Theon and the north like a lute. Ramsay conquering Winterfell imo is the second most impressive thing a character has done (after Barri in duskendale)

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I think for most peasants it's just a case of being in the right place at the right time.

  • Duncan the Tall wouldn't have done as well as he did had Aegon V not wanted to be his squire. 
  • Bronn just so happened to be staying at the inn that Tyrion was trying to stay at. 
  • Rolly Duckfield got picked pretty much at random to be fAegon's man-at-arms. 
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On July 23, 2018 at 5:31 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Im telling you, Ramsay is no smallfolk. He was given Reek to teach or assist him or whatever Reek does. When Ramsay manages to defeat Ser Rordrik and capture Winterfell it was with Rooses personal men, no smallfolk has that power. Similarly capturing Hornwood land and skirmishing against Manderly soldiers is not within smallfolk power. Lastly Ramsay knows his history, by using the flaying knife like his ancestors or naming his bitches after his prisoners in some perverted skinchanging way, smallfolk have no heritage or knowledge of family history.

You do realize Reek was a peasant with a physical defect that makes him smell appalling and had shown to hate his odor so much he'd literally steal perfume from Roose's wife, to drink( getting whipped the firsttime and nearly dying as a result of having drunk the perfume the second time)? Like Roose makes clear giving Reek over to Ramsey and his mother was more a sick joke in response to Ramsey's mother asking for help to raise the boy. Ramsey defeats Ser Rodric after having married Lady Hornwood, with Roose's aid. No he's no longer apart of the smallfolk in this instance. He was when he was brought up. He did not enjoy any of the luxuries or privellages of a noblemen, his mother supported him and her based off their earnings at the mill, the most Roose ever chipped in was some livestock and some coin annually to shut Ramsey's mother about Ramsey's patronage. Ramsey was not a noble when Roose used him to garner a claim on Hornwood's lands. Ramsey himself is acting with the power Roose is granting him. Roose can loan some of his men out to anyone regardless of their station to attack a nobleman. That does not automatically make it so that the person he loaned out his men to is some how elevated.

Yeah, it's not impossible for members of the smallfolk to know something about their family's history.

Ramsey's knowing some his noble father's family's history really does not mean anything.

And, the tortures  Ramsey's inflicts upon women are his own concoction; they've no basis in any history of House Bolton. 

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22 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You do realize Reek was a peasant with a physical defect that makes him smell appalling and had shown to hate his odor so much he'd literally steal perfume from Roose's wife, to drink( getting whipped the firsttime and nearly dying as a result of having drunk the perfume the second time)? Like Roose makes clear giving Reek over to Ramsey and his mother was more a sick joke in response to Ramsey's mother asking for help to raise the boy. Ramsey defeats Ser Rodric after having married Lady Hornwood, with Roose's aid. No he's no longer apart of the smallfolk in this instance. He was when he was brought up. He did not enjoy any of the luxuries or privellages of a noblemen, his mother supported him and her based off their earnings at the mill, the most Roose ever chipped in was some livestock and some coin annually to shut Ramsey's mother about Ramsey's patronage. Ramsey was not a noble when Roose used him to garner a claim on Hornwood's lands. Ramsey himself is acting with the power Roose is granting him. Roose can loan some of his men out to anyone regardless of their station to attack a nobleman. That does not automatically make it so that the person he loaned out his men to is some how elevated.

Yeah, it's not impossible for members of the smallfolk to know something about their family's history.

Ramsey's knowing some his noble father's family's history really does not mean anything.

And, the tortures  Ramsey's inflicts upon women are his own concoction; they've no basis in any history of House Bolton. 

Before Hornwood, id agree Ramsays no noble. Thats not really the same as smallfolk, yes Reek is terrible to be around, but its something, along with the money. Smallfolk usually have nothing. 

But Ramsay torture is his family history. Ramsay flays like the ancient (possibly not so ancient) Boltons did. The old ways hard to kill, Theon summarized in Pyke, the case for Dreadfort may be similar. 

Bran wears the skin of Hodor, during ancient times other Starks probably slipt into their warriors. Glamor is powerful magic as Mel does, although not as powerful as simply wearing a deadmans skin like Arya. Sixskins dies and becomes his wolf, which is, in theory similar to Kyra. Ramsay probably knows none of this, but some type of education is still there. Its a disgusting bootleg attempt at magic of an education but an education none the less, smallfolk dont have educations

 

 

 

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