Does a peasant have to be scum to move up in Westeoes?

[Paxter Redwyne]

There was also Willit, old man-at-arms who saved ser Harys Swyft during Battle of the Blackwater and was severely injured while defending him.

[Chancho]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You do realize Davos sold Stannis and his garrison the onions and fish he brought to Stormsend right? Certainly at prices well over the actual value of the food. It was not an act of charity. Davos was a smuggler. Ergo he was "scum in his  society. He would not be be able to have sold Stannis and his garrison enough food to live without his skill sets from smuggling. 

He wanted to get Stannis favour, where did you see he selled food? He was smelling recompensation and appreciation of a lordling  for his service, but this don't imply he out righted sold the stuuff, more like expecting long term gains.

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, Chancho said:

He wanted to get Stannis favour, where did you see he selled food? He was smelling recompensation and appreciation of a lordling  for his service, but this don't imply he out righted sold the stuuff, more like expecting long term gains.

I'm getting it from Martin:

 

Because he had onions! And so he thought to himself: "Where can I sell these at the best price? If I take them to King's Landing they'll pay me the price of onions, but i I take them to people duing of hunger they'd certainly pay me better."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

Where are you getting he wanted to win Stannis' favor?

[Chancho]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I'm getting it from Martin:

 

Because he had onions! And so he thought to himself: "Where can I sell these at the best price? If I take them to King's Landing they'll pay me the price of onions, but i I take them to people duing of hunger they'd certainly pay me better."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

Where are you getting he wanted to win Stannis' favor?

To me Always maked sense that he was trying to get on a lordling grace to shift his life upwards, i tought he was selling himself more than the simple goods... But if Martin means literal price, than it is what it is, But he could mean something greater by "better price" i guess. 

[The Sunland Lord]

I guess ancient noble houses were once regular people who decided to get organized. Who's to say how did they become what they are today? Sure we have evidence for recent history, but who can guarantee for hundreds or thousands of years back. 

Ramsay is a noble bastard, not some random peasant. Yes, he was living a peasant life, but he wouldn't have had come to the Dreadfort to learn to read and write if he didn't have noble heritage. 

[Corvo the Crow]

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You do realize Davos sold Stannis and his garrison the onions and fish he brought to Stormsend right? Certainly at prices well over the actual value of the food. It was not an act of charity. Davos was a smuggler. Ergo he was "scum in his  society. He would not be be able to have sold Stannis and his garrison enough food to live without his skill sets from smuggling. 

You do realize this isn't smuggling, right? He used his skillset earned through years of actual smuggling to "smuggle in" these goods but he didn't evade any customs, duties or taxes, he made his dealings directly with the lord of the castle so in this instance he broke no laws and thus it wasn't being a scum that got him to move  up.

He made a fair trade as an honest merchant in this instance despite using the talents of a scum. there's a difference between using the skillset of a scum and acting as a scum.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

You do realize this isn't smuggling, right? He used his skillset earned through years of actual smuggling to "smuggle in" these goods but he didn't evade any customs, duties or taxes, he made his dealings directly with the lord of the castle so in this instance he broke no laws and thus it wasn't being a scum that got him to move  up.

He made a fair trade as an honest merchant in this instance despite using the talents of a scum. there's a difference between using the skillset of a scum and acting as a scum.

 

Given Stannis is a rebel at this point, one can interpret Davos selling food to them as unlawful. Aiding rebels no? That's a crime. Fact Davos had to invade the Redwyne fleet(the lawful authority), to even get to Stannis. 

In any case again if he had never been a smuggler, he would have not been able to sneak anything to Stannis and his garrison, being scum allowed him to acquire an opportunity for a better life. Stannis is rewarding Davos' skills being used to the benifit of the rebels.

Davos overpriced food he planned to sell to men who'd been starving for months; he was not looking for fair trade nor is likely to care for honesty. He simply  wants exploit the circumstances as much he can; the man has a family to support after all, he can not afford to do purely altruistic acts of humanitarian aid to anybody.

I'm not really saying Davos was a bad guy(far from it truth be told), just that he didn't act anywhere near virtuous or noble in this incident.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 hours ago, Chancho said:

To me Always maked sense that he was trying to get on a lordling grace to shift his life upwards, i tought he was selling himself more than the simple goods... But if Martin means literal price, than it is what it is, But he could mean something greater by "better price" i guess. 

I would imagine Davos would not be so beholden to Stannis if him being granted a lordship was merely apart of the agreement for the onions;  it should have been a stipulation though, along with a promise of full pardon(no punishment at all), should Robert actually win the war. Being a lord with your own lands is a better price then a few coins; it provides more security.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 7/27/2018 at 12:34 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Given Stannis is a rebel at this point, one can interpret Davos selling food to them as unlawful. Aiding rebels no? That's a crime. Fact Davos had to invade the Redwyne fleet(the lawful authority), to even get to Stannis. 

No. You do know how feudal contracts work, right? I'll not go explaining it since people with far more knowledge than me did so in other topics time and again. Redwyne fleet was blockading SE, they were in waters belonging to SE and Stormlands.

On 7/27/2018 at 12:34 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In any case again if he had never been a smuggler, he would have not been able to sneak anything to Stannis and his garrison, being scum allowed him to acquire an opportunity for a better life. Stannis is rewarding Davos' skills being used to the benifit of the rebels.

Again, where he got the skills is irrelevant in this context since he was never awarded for being a smuggler, on the contrary he was punished for it.

On 7/27/2018 at 12:34 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Davos overpriced food he planned to sell to men who'd been starving for months; he was not looking for fair trade nor is likely to care for honesty. He simply  wants exploit the circumstances as much he can; the man has a family to support after all, he can not afford to do purely altruistic acts of humanitarian aid to anybody.

It was a fair deal. The cost of a sold item doesn't simply consist of the manufactiring(or growing in case of onions) price. Davos included the logistics and the potential risk factor both of which increase the cost. There's also some profit he has to make, again increasing the price. Then there's also the fact he is the sole supplier in the market which gives him more flexibility on determining a price. Knowing all this, Stannis found the cost fair and accepted the deal and not only did he trade with him,  he even rewarded Davos for it.

 

On 7/27/2018 at 12:34 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

not really saying Davos was a bad guy(far from it truth be told), just that he didn't act anywhere near virtuous or noble in this incident.  

Not saying he's a good guy. He just wasn't being a scum in this incident. If it will clarify anything, him being a samaritan was purely a joke.

He had goods, he found the best market with the best prices with WILLING customers and he acted on it, putting his neck on the line in the process. He's just a brave entrepreneur here, not the law avoiding smuggling scum he normally was.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On July 26, 2018 at 2:19 AM, LindsayLohan said:

Except the only three surviving members of the family are all in Winterfell.  Rodrik, Jory, Beth (with only Beth still alive).  Martyn was a Winterfell guard, too.  While the Starks hold them in esteem, it is essentially a family of household knights.

If they weren't part of nobility wouldn't that be brought up as a complaint for why Rodrick can't marry lady Hornwood?

[Corvo the Crow]

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If they weren't part of nobility wouldn't that be brought up as a complaint for why Rodrick can't marry lady Hornwood?

knights are nobility, however petty. or at least most of them excepting hedgies are. If I recall they were nobility in our world, hence a distinction between men-at-arms amd knights; they are practically the same with the sole difference being one is a commoner and the other is a noble.

So say, Lothor is already a noble he just doesn't own land to be a landed knight like Templeton, who is also a noble, with his own lands, but not a lord.

Tallharts, Glovers, Pooles etc, are all nobles. If you aren't just Wat, but Wat Gray, you are nobility.

[Jaak]

14 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

knights are nobility, however petty. or at least most of them excepting hedgies are.

That's actually not clear. Landed knights are recognized as noble; but I suppose plenty of hedge knights are noble as well, and many household knights are not.

14 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If I recall they were nobility in our world, hence a distinction between men-at-arms amd knights; they are practically the same with the sole difference being one is a commoner and the other is a noble.

Not quite. Knights were distinguished for having been knighted.

Nobility was one consideration in knighting, but only one.

14 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So say, Lothor is already a noble he just doesn't own land to be a landed knight like Templeton, who is also a noble, with his own lands, but not a lord.

Tallharts, Glovers, Pooles etc, are all nobles. If you aren't just Wat, but Wat Gray, you are nobility.

How noble is Masha Heddle?

Yes, Tomard Heddle was a knight. That was 90 years ago.

Is Tobho Mott noble? He has a surname.

We do not get a good view of the middle class. We see Spicers and Slynts as ex-middle class. Lord Tytos Lannister made a merchant a Lord - did he need approval of King for this? Did the Spicer merchant have a surname as merchant, or only make up a surname after having been made Lord? And about Slynt... Jon Arryn put Janos in command of 2000 men, but for some reason neglected to knight Janos. Was Janos' father the butcher already using the surname Slynt?

[Stormking902]

A knight is NOT nobility they are a knight which is a few tiers down. 

King, Great Lord, Lord, Landed Knight, Household knight, hedge knight.

Knights can be nobility if they were from a lords house like Ser Loras or Jamie Lannister etc, Ser Bronn of the Blackwater and even Ser Dunkan the tall are NOT nobility but do have rights because they are knights and protected by the faith. 

[GallowsKnight]

On 7/26/2018 at 7:19 PM, LindsayLohan said:

Except the only three surviving members of the family are all in Winterfell.  Rodrik, Jory, Beth (with only Beth still alive).  Martyn was a Winterfell guard, too.  While the Starks hold them in esteem, it is essentially a family of household knights.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm not even committed to my argument. I just think we can't make an assumption they have no land. I feel that just because they're the only members left alive doesn't mean they don't have some incredibly piece-meal holding somewhere that is being managed by an underling. Nobility is a huge spectrum and there are people like Petyr Baelish's father who own the smallest shittiest of holdings. Which if they can get a better job at the court of a High Lord they will leave in a heartbeat.

Jory and Rodrik are more than simple guards. I don't recall if Martyn had a position or not. Ned Stark is a king in all but name. One is his Master of Arms, the other his Captain of Guards. These are really important jobs.