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UK Politics: This Country is Going to the Moggs


Werthead

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I've never understood the line about the UK not wanting a border and it'll be all the EU's fault if there is a border. It ignores completely the Most Favoured Nation rules and the UK's own responsibilities. I mean it's not hard to understand, yet Brexiters time and again run with the 'not our problem' when it comes to Northern Ireland - are all brexiters so childish? 

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I mean, what's to post about? 

Johnson and May both gave speeches in which they pretended that Britain is an entirely different country than it actually is, and that Brexit will be so amazing that everyone will wonder why we didn't do it sooner. The only difference is that May blamed the present problems entirely on the EU, whereas Johnson blamed the EU and May equally. 

We could discuss why Arlene Foster is allowed to use language that would see any Irish nationalist politician that used it condemned as a terrorist, but we know the answer to that - the DUP can do whatever they like so long as the Tories need their votes. 

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I’m not from the UK but am following the Brexit spectacle with some fascination. I read a Guardian article on the Tory conference and it seems like BoJo was criticising May and the EU equally on the Brexit negotiations.

Now for my question: Can someone please remind me what his official reason was for not running for PM directly after the Brexit side won the election and Cameron stepped down? 

I mean, we all realise it’s because he’d promised impossible unicorns and knew he couldn’t pull it off, so preferred to stay on the sidelines telling people how badly they run things and if only he was in charge he’d do it much better. Which is exactly what he’s doing now. But I just can’t see how he can get away with it. Why isn’t everyone’s answer “shut up Boris, you chose not to take this job so stop complaining about how we run it “? Surely his unwillingness to take responsibility for the situation he campaigned so hard for should rob him of any shred of credibility? 

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44 minutes ago, Erik of Hazelfield said:

I’m not from the UK but am following the Brexit spectacle with some fascination. I read a Guardian article on the Tory conference and it seems like BoJo was criticising May and the EU equally on the Brexit negotiations.

Now for my question: Can someone please remind me what his official reason was for not running for PM directly after the Brexit side won the election and Cameron stepped down? 

I mean, we all realise it’s because he’d promised impossible unicorns and knew he couldn’t pull it off, so preferred to stay on the sidelines telling people how badly they run things and if only he was in charge he’d do it much better. Which is exactly what he’s doing now. But I just can’t see how he can get away with it. Why isn’t everyone’s answer “shut up Boris, you chose not to take this job so stop complaining about how we run it “? Surely his unwillingness to take responsibility for the situation he campaigned so hard for should rob him of any shred of credibility? 

In a sane world and amongst people in Britain who follow politics, yes. But because there's a large number of people in the country who'd vote for him because he's "that funny guy off the telly with the hair" and know who he is (a relative rarity among British politicians), there's an excellent chance he'd win a popular vote, and a subset of the Conservative Party see value in that.

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1 hour ago, Erik of Hazelfield said:

I’m not from the UK but am following the Brexit spectacle with some fascination. I read a Guardian article on the Tory conference and it seems like BoJo was criticising May and the EU equally on the Brexit negotiations.

Now for my question: Can someone please remind me what his official reason was for not running for PM directly after the Brexit side won the election and Cameron stepped down? 

I mean, we all realise it’s because he’d promised impossible unicorns and knew he couldn’t pull it off, so preferred to stay on the sidelines telling people how badly they run things and if only he was in charge he’d do it much better. Which is exactly what he’s doing now. But I just can’t see how he can get away with it. Why isn’t everyone’s answer “shut up Boris, you chose not to take this job so stop complaining about how we run it “? Surely his unwillingness to take responsibility for the situation he campaigned so hard for should rob him of any shred of credibility? 

He was going to run, but he got back stabbed by Michael Gove, who was supposed to be his key supporter at the last moment, and instead announced his own candidacy. It was a comical attempt at Machiavellianism, so poorly executed that he actually didn't even become the main Leave candidate, behind Andrea "who?" Leadsom. This one actually isn't really on Boris- there are plenty of shits in the Tory party. 

Boris knows politics is all about timing. Has he missed his shot? Hopefully. 

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4 hours ago, Werthead said:

In a sane world and amongst people in Britain who follow politics, yes. But because there's a large number of people in the country who'd vote for him because he's "that funny guy off the telly with the hair" and know who he is (a relative rarity among British politicians), there's an excellent chance he'd win a popular vote, and a subset of the Conservative Party see value in that.

I wouldn't be surprised if he lost his seat over the Heathrow stuff. His cowardice was a massive betrayal of his constituents.

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5 hours ago, Erik of Hazelfield said:

Now for my question: Can someone please remind me what his official reason was for not running for PM directly after the Brexit side won the election and Cameron stepped down?

He did try to run for PM and initially seemed to be the front-runner, but many of his supporters (including Gove, who was in charge of Boris' leadership campaign) abandoned him and he dropped out when it became clear he wouldn't be one of the two leading candidates. At the time many of the Brexiteers considered Boris to be too soft on the EU, he wrote an article which they perceived as arguing for a continued close relationship with Europe. This may explain why his recent rhetoric has been much tougher on Brexit.

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On 10/5/2018 at 4:46 AM, williamjm said:

He did try to run for PM and initially seemed to be the front-runner, but many of his supporters (including Gove, who was in charge of Boris' leadership campaign) abandoned him and he dropped out when it became clear he wouldn't be one of the two leading candidates. 

A minor dissent: he dropped out when his political advisers told him he was finished after Gove knifed him. Gove demonstrated exquisite political misjudgment in trying to knife Boris, and Boris demonstrated extremely poor judgment in assuming he wouldn't have won a leadership contest post-knifing. If he had stayed in, he would have won the leadership contest because, as Wert says, lots of Tories think he can win elections, and he was the beneficiary of enormous sympathy because of Gove's conduct. 

British politics is in this weird space where all the leading politicians are characterized not by their abilities but their relative weakness.  Thus do the Maybot and Bojo weirdly complement each other: one colourless and dutiful without any ideas of her own the other full of zany ideas but lacking judgment and the ability to execute. 

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He might not have won - remember for the Tory contest it’s only the MP’s who vote until there’s two candidates left, and only then does it go to the members. I think he dropped out because after Gove’s backstab he thought he didn’t have enough parliamentary support to make it to the final ballot.

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On 10/4/2018 at 6:28 PM, Erik of Hazelfield said:

I mean, we all realise it’s because he’d promised impossible unicorns and knew he couldn’t pull it off, so preferred to stay on the sidelines telling people how badly they run things and if only he was in charge he’d do it much better. Which is exactly what he’s doing now. But I just can’t see how he can get away with it. Why isn’t everyone’s answer “shut up Boris, you chose not to take this job so stop complaining about how we run it “? Surely his unwillingness to take responsibility for the situation he campaigned so hard for should rob him of any shred of credibility? 

As has been pointed out by many people, there are a lot of parallels between Boris and Trump, and the popular appeal of both in the teeth of the facts is not dissimilar. In both cases their potential support seems to come largely from disaffected people harking back to a mythical idealised past who don't follow the mainstream news, though, this being the UK, Boris' fan base is not so far to the right.

That said, Boris, while being equally self centred and egotistical, is much cleverer than Trump, though still incapable of hard work or pursuing a long term strategy. Hence his frequent "zany ideas", as month after month he comes up with a new tactic to advance himself toward his goal of becoming PM.

Despite May's many and glaring faults, I think she genuinely convinces herself that she is doing the best for her country. Boris, of course, does not give a sh*t for anything other than himself.

 

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37 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

He might not have won - remember for the Tory contest it’s only the MP’s who vote until there’s two candidates left, and only then does it go to the members. I think he dropped out because after Gove’s backstab he thought he didn’t have enough parliamentary support to make it to the final ballot.

I suspect he'd probably have won if he had managed to get through to the stage where the party members voted. I was a bit surprised at the time that he dropped out, but I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to get an accurate prediction of how many MPs would vote for him.

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1 hour ago, A wilding said:

I think she genuinely convinces herself that she is doing the best for her country.


Tbh, I don't buy this. Thatcher gave that impression. May, despite thinking of herself as the new Thatcher, just does whatever she thinks is going to keep herself in power longer.

On Boris, I'd bet he's felt pretty silly about dropping out ever since he did. He must have assumed a stronger challenger was going to show up than Gove, but it turned out to be Leadsom who immediately killed her own chances. Hard to believe Boris wouldn't have got to the final two even with Gove's sabotage.

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5 hours ago, A wilding said:

That said, Boris, while being equally self centred and egotistical, is much cleverer than Trump, though still incapable of hard work or pursuing a long term strategy. Hence his frequent "zany ideas", as month after month he comes up with a new tactic to advance himself toward his goal of becoming PM. 

Hum, nah. I think Boris Johnson is pretty much a dumb person's idea of a smart person. Good vocabulary, attended one of the more prestigious colleges, but when you look at him a bit closer, he really is not that smart.  He is (very likely) smarter than Twitler in the US, but that's a very low bar indeed. But I think, the sooner people put the idea of BoZo being an actual smart person to rest, the better.

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10 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

A minor dissent: he dropped out when his political advisers told him he was finished after Gove knifed him. Gove demonstrated exquisite political misjudgment in trying to knife Boris, and Boris demonstrated extremely poor judgment in assuming he wouldn't have won a leadership contest post-knifing. If he had stayed in, he would have won the leadership contest because, as Wert says, lots of Tories think he can win elections, and he was the beneficiary of enormous sympathy because of Gove's conduct. 

British politics is in this weird space where all the leading politicians are characterized not by their abilities but their relative weakness.  Thus do the Maybot and Bojo weirdly complement each other: one colourless and dutiful without any ideas of her own the other full of zany ideas but lacking judgment and the ability to execute. 

I don't agree with that. Even now, May is significantly more popular amongst the public and the party- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/06/voters-back-trustworthy-theresa-may-boris-johnson-leadership-campaign 

This is not Italy or the USA, we have never had a leader of this populist style. The Tory party does not have a Tea Party. Boris has played the "celebrity politician" thing well, but it's a double edged sword, a lot of people are very committed to not having this kind of leader, and the similarities to Trump are not going to work in his favour. 

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9 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I don't agree with that. Even now, May is significantly more popular amongst the public and the party- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/06/voters-back-trustworthy-theresa-may-boris-johnson-leadership-campaign 

This is not Italy or the USA, we have never had a leader of this populist style. The Tory party does not have a Tea Party. Boris has played the "celebrity politician" thing well, but it's a double edged sword, a lot of people are very committed to not having this kind of leader, and the similarities to Trump are not going to work in his favour. 

I don't necessarily disagree, but my point was about Johnson's leadership prospects in the immediate aftermath of Brexit.  And as a British transplant to the U.S., I would just warn you about the danger of "it could never happen here" :)

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3 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but my point was about Johnson's leadership prospects in the immediate aftermath of Brexit.  And as a British transplant to the U.S., I would just warn you about the danger of "it could never happen here" :)

I'm not sure about popularity then, but I would have thought May's popularity would have gone down since then? And Boris was criticised a lot at the time for his clearly disingenuous leave support. 

I think Boris could definitely become PM. But despite some similarities, he isn't Trump. I don't see any evidence that Boris has less political understanding than his rivals. 

Boris is a cartoon of a politician, but Trump is a cartoon of Boris. 

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